Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

as if inxile could figure out what's good or not.

if they knew what good was, they'd make things good from the get-go.

Wow, talk about stupid speculation.

The portrait artist, for example, is considered to be doing a good job, amirite?

I think one of the reasons I might seem more forgiving towards developers than other people on this forum is that I refuse to believe that they're blind idiots flailing in the darkness. To borrow a Cleve-ism - I agree that sometimes developers don't know what they're doing. But you guys also think that they don't know that they don't know.

Anyway, you're right that I'm speculating. But have a look through Adam's Kickstarter updates and interviews over the years: http://www.rpgcodex.net/tags.php?id=1014

How much of that made it into the game? This stuff was his responsibility.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Easily one of the blander pieces of art the game has managed to produce thus far.

In the grim darkness of really far future there is only bad haircuts.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Looking at W2 you'd think that yes, they were just flailing in the darkness. Many things about Torment hint at the same thing: let's put out 10 revisions of shit and in the end choose the shittiest one.

I don't know what's in those updates or what do you mean about his responsibility. Are you saying that whatever was cut was because Heine didn't do it up to the quality of what wasn't cut?

 

[Fairfax]

as if inxile could figure out what's good or not.

if they knew what good was, they'd make things good from the get-go.

Wow, talk about stupid speculation.

The portrait artist, for example, is considered to be doing a good job, amirite?

I think one of the reasons I might seem more forgiving towards developers than other people on this forum is that I refuse to believe that they're blind idiots flailing in the darkness. To borrow a Cleve-ism - I agree that sometimes developers don't know what they're doing. But you guys also think that they don't know that they don't know.

Anyway, you're right that I'm speculating. But have a look through Adam's Kickstarter updates and interviews over the years: http://www.rpgcodex.net/tags.php?id=1014

How much of that made it into the game? This stuff was his responsibility.

You don't know why the content was cut and who made these decisions.

 

[Infinitron]

It's not about cut content. It's about a failure to implement usable systems.

If you read Adam's updates, there's a lot of interesting mechanics stuff in there, a lot of handwaving and theorycrafting. My hunch (and I might be wrong) is that he didn't really know how to arrange for all of those things to actually be integrated into the game's content in practice. Being in Thailand couldn't have helped, of course.

 

[DeepOcean]

This looks like low budget art from a low budget PnP RPG sourcebook. The kind of art you know was done on the cheap just by looking at it.

 

[DeepOcean]

Okay, isn't the release day tomorrow? Where is the excitement?

 

[Raghar]

When would we see first bitter codex reviews?

 

[Fairfax]

It's not about cut content. It's about a failure to design usable systems.

If you read Adam's updates, there's a lot of interesting mechanics stuff in there, a lot of handwaving and theorycrafting. My hunch (and I might be wrong) is that he didn't really know how to arrange for all of those things to actually be integrated into the game's content in practice. Being in Thailand couldn't have helped, of course.

There's no reason to assume he wasn't able to implement his ideas or that they sucked. One example is the combat system. Adam was working on a phase-based system before the Kickstarter, and initially they were going to include the 3 options in the poll, but Kevin decided to cut Adam's system. The Toy was also his baby, and he was the one vouching for Numenera's systems (specially the Effort thing and having no health), but we don't know why they were cut.

 

[Infinitron]

Okay, isn't the release day tomorrow? Where is the excitement?

Kind of sad that the run-up to release is like this, but then they haven't been doing much to excite us, have they.

PoE had Sawyer livestreams and stuff before release. With Torment you get the feeling that they all moved on to Wasteland 3 months ago and we've been kept waiting for some artificial reason.

 

[Rev]

It's not about cut content. It's about a failure to implement usable systems.

If you read Adam's updates, there's a lot of interesting mechanics stuff in there, a lot of handwaving and theorycrafting. My hunch (and I might be wrong) is that he didn't really know how to arrange for all of those things to actually be integrated into the game's content in practice. Being in Thailand couldn't have helped, of course.

Your assumption only works if we take for granted that inXile's higher-ups are capable of making good judgement calls. So far, nothing seems to suggest that.
Look at all the idiotic decisions they took over the course of T:ToN's development, how they publicly handled the cut contents fiasco, the continuous delays, their business model based only on churning out one crowdfunding campaign after another that made them lose the trust of many previous fans/customers, and even their previous mediocre work. It's crystal clear their managers aren't really good, despite whatever you think about the quality of T:ToN's final content, so we don't know who's to blame for what and there's no point in pointing fingers against a designer just because he doesn't seem to be feature in the next project.

 

[Excidium II]

This looks like low budget art from a low budget PnP RPG sourcebook. The kind of art you know was done on the cheap just by looking at it.

Why do I have to play an ugly/plain looking character?

 

[Lacrymas]

Because people have tricked themselves into thinking that "diversity" = creativity, and by putting as many black gays and asian trannies in their game it automatically makes it good and worthy of being consumed and understood. It makes me sick.

 

[lili]

"FOR THE CRIME OF ASSUMING XIR GENDER....!"

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's not about cut content. It's about a failure to implement usable systems.

If you read Adam's updates, there's a lot of interesting mechanics stuff in there, a lot of handwaving and theorycrafting. My hunch (and I might be wrong) is that he didn't really know how to arrange for all of those things to actually be integrated into the game's content in practice. Being in Thailand couldn't have helped, of course.

Your assumption only works if we take for granted that inXile's higher-ups are capable of making good judgement calls. So far, nothing seems to suggest that.
Look at all the idiotic decisions they took over the course of T:ToN's development, how they publicly handled the cut contents fiasco, the continuous delays, their business model based only on churning out one crowdfunding campaign after another that made them lose the trust of many previous fans/customers, and even their previous mediocre work. It's crystal clear their managers aren't really good, despite whatever you think about the quality of T:ToN's final content, so we don't know who's to blame for what and there's no point in pointing fingers against a designer just because he doesn't seem to be feature in the next project.

Hey look, some speculation: Maybe Heine decided that caring for orphans is more rewarding than working for Fargo's peanuts. Who knows?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

They're a mess of a company atm, that's for sure. Fargo going through what seems like a bad divorce certainly doesn't help either. He seemed to have genuine passion for RPGs when the whole KS craze started, but lately it's like he's just going through the motions. We're low on money, fuck it, let's do another Kickstarter. And it's an embarrassment how they still don't have a proper community manager, but are working on 3 games simultaneously, that is WL3, BT4, and TTON post-release support.

 

[Lurker King]

Because people have tricked themselves into thinking that "diversity" = creativity, and by putting as many black gays and asian trannies in their game it automatically makes it good and worthy of being consumed and understood. It makes me sick.

Some great quotes from Thomas Sowell

“The next time some academics tell you how important diversity is, ask how many Republicans there are in their sociology department.”

"If there is any place in the Guinness Book of World Records for words repeated the most often, over the most years, without one speck of evidence, “diversity” should be a prime candidate. Is diversity our strength? Or anybody’s strength, anywhere in the world? Does Japan’s homogeneous population cause the Japanese to suffer? Have the Balkans been blessed by their heterogeneity — or does the very word “Balkanization” remind us of centuries of strife, bloodshed and unspeakable atrocities, extending into our own times? Has Europe become a safer place after importing vast numbers of people from the Middle East, with cultures hostile to the fundamental values of Western civilization?

“When in Rome do as the Romans do” was once a common saying. Today, after generations in the West have been indoctrinated with the rhetoric of multiculturalism, the borders of Western nations on both sides of the Atlantic have been thrown open to people who think it is their prerogative to come as refugees and tell the Romans what to do — and to assault those who don’t knuckle under to foreign religious standards.

It has not been our diversity, but our ability to overcome the problems inherent in diversity, and to act together as Americans, that has been our strength.

 

[Lurker King]

He seemed to have genuine passion for RPGs when the whole KS craze started, but lately it's like he's just going through the motions.

Maybe when he was a teenager, but the way he sank Interplay showed both a lack of judgment and megalomaniac thinking that is incompatible with the most simplest appreciation for cRPGs. He has a real passion, but for his own image.

 

[Infinitron]

They're a mess of a company atm, that's for sure. Fargo going through what seems like a bad divorce certainly doesn't help either. He seemed to have genuine passion for RPGs when the whole KS craze started, but lately it's like he's just going through the motions. We're low on money, fuck it, let's do another Kickstarter. And it's an embarrassment how they still don't have a proper community manager, but are working on 3 games simultaneously, that is WL3, BT4, and TTON post-release support.

I agree that inXile's high-level strategy as a company is bizarre (why are you making more games simultaneously than developers who are larger and more successful than you?).

But, I don't think that has much to do with how Torment's development went down. Brian Fargo does too many Kickstarters, therefore he also doesn't know how to recognize talent (or a lack thereof) among his developers or understand what they're doing? No.

Grousing about graphics aside, I'm actually impressed by what we've seen from BT4 so far, although of course it's still early.

 

[Lady_Error]

If the characters turn out to be not weird or interesting enough, that's one thing. But complaining about the art style? Do people actually remember what the character art in PST was like?

And it's still a great game, despite that.

 

[Excidium II]

If the characters turn out to be not weird or interesting enough, that's one thing. But complaining about the art style? Do people actually remember what the character art in PST was like?

And it's still a great game, despite that.

Are you attempting something??

 

[Lacrymas]

A floating skull, a constantly burning and writhing in agony man, a virtuous succubus, a fallen githzerai, a cute Modron, a hollow suit of armor. And ...Annah, she's kinda the odd one out. That's a bit different than Man No 1, Man No 2, some Asian chick, a milf, a discount emo and literally a child.

 

[Infinitron]

A floating skull, a constantly burning and writhing in agony man, a virtuous succubus, a fallen githzerai, a cute Modron, a hollow suit of armor. And ...Annah, she's kinda the odd one out. That's a bit different than Man No 1, Man No 2, some Asian chick, a milf, a discount emo and literally a child.

The "Asian chick" isn't a companion, she's the female protagonist.

 

[Lacrymas]

So? Still bland as all hell. TNO was at least a leathery, scarred man.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

The way he sank Interplay showed both a lack of judgment and megalomaniac thinking that is incompatible with the most simplest appreciation for cRPGs.

While he was sinking Interplay he greenlighted 4 of the Codex Top 5 games of all time, despite the fact that they desperately needed money and most of the management thought those games won't as much as break even. So I'd say he had to have had pretty fucking good appreciation of RPGs all right.

Then again, you're just a shill paid off by VD, what do you know about RPGs anyway.