Information Tom Hall and Brenda Brathwaite Kickstart Turn-based Oldschool CRPG

[l3loodAngel]

1. Yep. And game development companies (a notoriously difficult market to predict winners in) aren't energy companies. Energy companies build power plants (quantifiable, mostly the same) and operate based on current market prices. 2. Your Liquid Gas is the same as my Liquid Gas - we can reasonably determine the demand - and the price - for that product in a given area. Where-as your First-Person 3d Tactical Shooter is not the same as my First-Person 3d Tactical Shooter.

1. Based on perception. Commodities prices swing by 50% up or down in a period of 6 months although people do feel better about predicting them for some unknown psychological reason.
2. Best paid guys can't it in 6 months and we are talking about 3-4 years. Not trying go have an argument for the sake of argument, but you have to be God right now to get it right with so many developments going on.

2. Not that they need it. The faster the loan is repaid the better. It takes a company 3-4 years to develop a game. Now if it would take additional three years to repay the loan, it would mean that the loan period would be longer by 3 years. Then the interest would kill you. Now games also have a feature what statisticians would call the long tail. The games especially RPG's are sold through time, but at the small quantities. It also add to the source of revenue.

But it's all speculation. 3. There are just as many games that don't have any long-tail - they just disappear from existence. 4. Where-as I can find a guy who'll happily tell you what the price of Gas will be in 6 years from now, and what the long-term trend for demand is. Now while I might be able to do that for the "computer games market" as a whole, I can't do that for your specific computer game.

3. RTS, RPG, Adventure will likely have it, while FPS, MMO and sports would be unlikely to have it.
4. You are oversimplifying it. If I could do that I would be earning money like this mom http://cnbc51news.com/. There are so many development's in the industry right now and the industries for commodities are inter linked together. Nat Gas can be substituted by Shale gas or sometimes by coal for generation of electricity. Demand shift to China and growth of green electricity usage. Carbon emission credits, their costs and subsidizing of Green electricity sources.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Didn't SEGA actually demand that it be less of a shooter (stealth skills, reticle waiting)?

Sega certainly complained that the game felt hardly like an RPG compared to Mass Effect. IIRC.

 

[Jaesun]

Yep that was the statement by SEGA.

 

[villain of the story]

Short story: Obsidian was SEGA's bitch.

 

[MMXI]

Name dropping is easy but you don't know what you are talking about.

Of course I don't.

Have you played those games at all? They aren't merely bad games. They are fucking abominations. Plus, Curries made Jagged Alliance two years before they made Nemesis. To make a game such a masterpiece as JA and then to move onto something as horribly shit as Nemesis... You can't explain that with mere names. It doesn't matter whose name is on the credits. Guys making Chaos Chronicles claim that they were commissioned to make JA:BIA, not because it was their dream of a game. Obsidian developed a FPS Fallout title, though they did the best they could with it because they are generally a good development studio. Similar deal.

But this was my exact point. These developers ended up working on very good games and very shit games during these years, as can be seen in my post. They probably just did what they were told, and probably did the best they could. So perhaps this rules out the developers being clueless fucks? Maybe it was just the management that turned to shit after Wizardry VII? Or maybe they always had a spotty record...

Like wise with Druid. For a company such as SirTech to find and commission such a shit development studio whose other games suck donkey balls is incongruous with their track record and points to a problem with management making poor decisions.

Yes. There must have been. But this goes all the way back to the beginning of the company. What were Sir-Tech doing between Wizardry 3 and 4? There was a 4 year gap between these games, even though they largely shared the same engine. They created Crypt of Medea, Rescue Raiders and Deep Space: Operation Copernicus while publishing The Seven Spirits of Ra. Crypt of Medea was actually a decent enough graphical adventure game, but The Seven Spirits of Ra, just like its predecessor, was a diabolically bad action "RPG". Was it as bad as Druid: Daemons of the Mind? You can answer that for yourself. I have never played Rescue Raiders, but Deep Space: Operation Copernicus is a terrible, barely functioning combat focused Elite rip off. They also released Freakin' Funky Fuzzballs in 1990, the same year as Wizardry VI, and while it sounds terrible it's actually just a simple multi-level puzzle game so it's pretty inoffensive.

But I think all of this pales in comparison to the severe lack of innovation in the Wizardry series up until Wizardry VI. This is a decade we're talking about here, a longer time frame than between Wizardry 7 and Wizardry 8. They spent their time funding a graphic adventure, a space shooter, a terrible action "RPG" and even a text adventure, all the while leaving the Wizardry series with largely the same character system, the same combat system and the same wire-frame dungeon graphics.

It's hard to buy into the story that Sir-Tech descended into an incompetently managed business after 1992. The in house Nemesis: The Wizardry Adventure and the published Druid: Daemons of the Mind don't strike me as out of pattern. But what we did get was the English language publication of the Realms of Arkania trilogy, the Jagged Alliance series and, in the end, Wizardry 8.

 

[Bulba]

http://articles.bplans.com/financing-a-business/how-to-get-your-business-funded/58

Should pretty much settle the argument. Banks will only give business loans to the amount that they are backed by assets or guaranteed by a third party. I was wrong about a good business plan allowing a bank to give you bigger loans than you can back them for. They don't even do that.

It is impossible to get a business loan from a bank unless you can give them reasonable proof that you will be able to pay them the money back. Even if you squander all the money from the loan on hookers and blow.

So banks have an almost zero risk policy in place for business loans. And it has nothing to do with them feeling you are more committed to a project because you are backing it with personal wealth. A development studio can only get a loan from a bank for how much they are able to guarantee.

more than that - generaly banks tend to calculate your assets with a discount, like 0.7 of their current value or even worse if you have no credit history. It is possible to get loans without a guarantee, but the interest rates will have to compensate for it and they will be HUGE. I doubt any bank will be willing to give out any sort of serious summ of unsecured money to a bunch of nobodies.

 

[l3loodAngel]

1. I am not familiar with Gearbox so I will ignore it, but what you are saying is impossible, because Bio published games with three party agreement. The Developer, the publisher and owner of the IP. NWN comes from wizzards of the coast and SW comes from Lucas arts. So they technically can't be in charge of the franchise or the game.

1. Gearbox developed Borderlands 2 recently. They own the Borderlands IP. As well as several IPs for other games they have developed. 2. As for Bioware, Jade Empire and Mass Effect were both published through publishers(Microsoft I believe) and 3-4 years of dragon age was financed by Bioware independently, without a publisher being involved. Bioware retained the Jade Empire and Mass Effect IPs while Dragon Age wasn't released until after the buyout. I haven't bothered to do any research looking for other development companies that have been able to achieve financial success but I'm sure that if I did I would find other examples easily enough.

1. That's more of an anomaly, rather an industry norm.
2. Yes, but how much money did Bioware have it's own and what did publisher had for a publishing? Besides there's a rumor that Bio sold a part of it's stock before it became part of EA. So it's investor's could have been responsible for financing. Some rumors even say that Riccitiello owned a part of the stock. Anyway, it just proves that companies can get their financing without publishers.

1. So you are saying that's banks aren't really viable ways for a developer to fund a game. 2. If it takes being a medium-large sized developer to get 2-3 million(And if I remember correctly, Obsidian stated that they burn through 1-2 million a month) then a smaller studio doesn't have a chance of getting a loan to cover the 18 months(or even a year) or so it will take to make a game. 3. Companies are better off going the kickstarter route since they are just being given the money instead of borrowing it. Plus they can be assured of a reasonable interest in the game before spending money developing it.

4. All the conditions that would put them in a better shape to get a larger bank loan, Are the same conditions that allow them to get a better deal with a publisher. 5. If a Developer owns the IP and is willing to pay a significant portion of the development costs themselves they are going to be able to retain the IP and get a bigger cut of the pie, all without having to actually get a loan that can potentially sink their business if the game doesn't do as well as hoped. 6. The distribution and marketing will also be handled so the the developer doesn't have to worry about doing that themselves(and they might very well suck ass at it) or hiring other companies to do it.

7. While publishers are far from perfect they aren't the big bad guys you are trying to portray them as.

1. No it's just a way rebuke your claim that games are super risky and to show how accounting magic works to hide true costs and to make devs their bitches. With the current costs structure the Publishers lock devs out of the big game.
2. The amount is imaginary, I thought that was clear. I have not seen their finances so I can't say much and even then it depends on the devs capability to sell since this is not standard as retail is. However, I would have a very hard time believing that they would get $ 60 million required for the development of the next gen game.
3. Kickstarter is not bad idea, but if the company want to make a bigger game, combining the two could yield very solid budget.
4. Read Fergus note on publishers. Developer's came to him asking to do kick starter for them. And they wanted IP and the profits. I would do lock out publishers out of the chain completely.
5. This depends on the slice that Publisher takes. If it is bigger than interest to the bank, I would say fuck it. Anyway, I have hard time believing that it would be the case.
6. Yes. Buying Gamespot banners, sending free copies to reviewers and organizing a booth with bitches is such a big headache.
7. You are stating your opinion as a fact. I see a huge mismatch in numbers, between revenue and costs. And such accounting "gems" as amortization or impairment and etc. Not to mention $86 compensation for Ravioli and his top management, that literally generates NO revenue. $73 to Origin... +464 million income from preorders in a SINGLE quarter (From cash flow statement, named as Net deffered revenue). It's a fucking gold farm. Thus, I am also surprised like Riccitiello: why aren't people buying EA stock?

 

[theSavant]

There's no way they're going to reach the $1M goal. It's a pity because they already have +$200k which should be more than enough to make a decent game.

The problem is: they are 30 people. And they probably set this OldSchoolRPG as the main project for 12-14 months (ETA is January 2014) and therefore as a living. If you divide the 1 Million by the 30 people and 12-14 months you get a monthly wage of about 2500$ for everyone. I'm just speculating though.

Btw. I just watched a walkthrough of Wizardry Nemesis: looked interesting and remembered me of games like Dragon Lore 2 or Lands of Lore 2. I must have missed this title although it was something completely different to the other Wizardrys, but it's a stlye which definitely has its touch.

 

[JarlFrank]

They should just release more specific infos ASAP then the money will trickle in more steadily.

 

[kaizoku]

They should totally make a new video in which they are on their knees begging for money, atleast it would be more classy then the first one.

 

[rpgcodexusername]

whoa page 18 of this thread is boring

 

[LeStryfe79]

Needs more incest

 

[Digital Monocle]

I wouldn't mind a Ian and Linda Currie KS with a JA-like game. Even include Cleve as one of the stretch goals I would pay for that KS instead of this


What would be funny is if there was a Codex drive for the 10K reward to send Cleve to hang out with Romero and Brenda and have a codexer film all the lulz

 

[Roguey]

Also remember Alpha Popamole and SEGA demanding several changes. And look how it turned out. A poor Mass Effect derivative popamole console corridor shooter with cutscenes.

What changes did they demand?

We don't know. I highly doubt Obsidian will ever state specifics, since they do still work with publishers. The same with them answering what publisher approached them to do a KS scam.

They actually talked about it. We know Brian Mitsoda worked on it and almost all of his work was scrapped. We know SEGA demanded changes on game mechanics. It's all in interviews that was reposted here. They just didn't badmouth SEGA as in "they fucked our vision".

http://www.nuevebits.com/?p=1768

Agonz: It’s a fact that the reviews about Alpha Protocol were quite hard, to say the least. How much of it do you think it was due to the fact that even though AP looks like a shooter, it is an action RPG?

CFA: You’ve summed it up in the last question, all that’s only a part of it. AP represents a disconnect between what it looks like on screen vs. how it plays out – as an example, one of our design mandates from SEGA was that your gun skill effects your targeting and spread, which is something our studio is very much against, and you can see the consequences of that discrepancy in a number of mandated system mechanics in the game. Players don’t want invisible numbers in the background modifying what they’re physically doing on screen – if you have your cursor lined up, you should shoot where the cursor is pointing. Design decisions like that add up.

http://www.elpixelilustre.com/2011/08/entrevista-con-chris-avellone.html/2

-Was it easy working with SEGA during AP’s development? Were they very involved, influencing the project, or did they just “foot the bill”? Did that experience had anything to do with the cancelation of the Aliens RPG?

They were involved more heavily toward the 2nd half, and towards the end of production, they were calling the shots and the final, indisputable word on the game’s direction and especially the mechanics (targeting, especially, jumps to mind). They didn’t care so much about the story, however, which is pretty standard with most publishers we’ve worked with. Note that none of this absolves us of any of the choices we as a studio made up to that point, so if anyone had an issue with the game, we shared equal, if not more, responsibility for all the critiques folks had.

Mitsoda's work being scrapped was all Obsidian's idea, as revealed in that one Avellone email. Sega didn't care about the writing.

 

[villain of the story]

Cool and thanks for digging up stuff that actually supports what I've said.

 

[Don Peste]

I can imagine what kind of old school weapons those hands can hold:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...by-brenda-brathwaite-and-tom-hal/posts/324858

 

[IDtenT]

I'd hit that.

 

[Overboard]

He looks like the guy in the joke who dreamt he was skiing.

 

[HobGoblin42]

DW Bradley must be raging now

By the way, does anyone know what he is doing right now? I really enjoyed Wizards&Warriors, but as far as I know this was his last good game.

 

[theSavant]

It almost makes me cry as a backer: First the bad start. Then the fact, they didn't thought of anything. Now the third: superstupid story...

A team of analysts would go over the data, and Shakers would be deployed into the future or past to straighten out potential disturbances.

Come on, this is bullshit of timetravel into the past and straighten out disturbances is BULLSHIT. If you need to go into the past to "straighten out disturbances" then the present wouldn't exist as the way it is anyways! In fact there only is the moment of "now" and nothing else. And you can also not look into the future. You can assume, estimate and make statistics, but that's it. All the "Back to the past" Sci-Fi Movies suck anyway. I didn't expect from people - programmers - who need to think all the time, to come up with such a kindergarten fairy tale.

They could still have mixed Sci-Fi with medieval by simply saying an advanced civilisation hits an underdeveloped planet by some incident or story, whatever... but this time travel thing... no I don't even like that in matters of "fantasy"

when you think it can only get better... it gets even worse...

 

[IDtenT]

Time-travel always sucks, because time is linear.

 

[tuluse]

Time-travel always sucks, because time is linear.

Except Doctor Who.

 

[Alex]

Eh, backstory in these games is just an excuse to give us cool stuff to play with. Complaining time travel here doesn't make sense is like complaining that Gamma World doesn't make sense. That is, it is beside the point.

 

[theSavant]

But Wizardry 8 was cool to play and still made sense. So it's possible to create something cool, which has not an utterly retarded background. And honestly, time travel is amongst the worst... It is trying to be intellectual but fails 100% if you ever think about it more closely. Even the cliché of an evil character/force who wants to take over the world/galaxy is better and more reasonable.
But why do I complain... it's a dead horse anyways. The amount of backers has halved again. I've still not removed my pledge, because I hoped this "cool stuff to play with" is gonna happen. But it really hurts when you see that each update is even more retarded than the previous one. How good will the game then be...

 

[Duraframe300]

Time-travel always sucks, because time is linear.

Except Doctor Who.

Actually, canonically Doctor Who's is also linear.

That's not to say though, anybody (including the people who work on the show) care about Doctor Who canon. Except for when they actually need to pop it up to justify one story then fuck it in the ass right in the next.