Thief 4

[Zed Duke of Banville]

If you had to reimagined the story of real Thief 4 after the events of Deadly shadows, how would you do it?

The ending of Thief 3: Deadly Shadows suggested the premise of a fourth Thief game; since Garrett has already saved the world three times, he would pass the torch to a protege. However, there would need to be a different sort of villain that the plot of the fourth game would revolve around; since the first three Thief games already featured Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil, and Neutral Evil villains, the series would need to shift away from its focus on alignment. Perhaps there could be a politically-oriented plot, with the Baron finally returning to the City with the war having reached a conclusion.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

If you had to reimagined the story of real Thief 4 after the events of Deadly shadows, how would you do it?

The ending of Thief 3: Deadly Shadows suggested the premise of a fourth Thief game; since Garrett has already saved the world three times, he would pass the torch to a protege. However, there would need to be a different sort of villain that the plot of the fourth game would revolve around; since the first three Thief games already featured Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil, and Neutral Evil villains, the series would need to shift away from its focus on alignment. Perhaps there could be a politically-oriented plot, with the Baron finally returning to the City with the war having reached a conclusion.

Interesting comparison to the D&D alignment-chart, but one that is somewhat flawed IMO.

Neither the Pagans as a faction, nor Constantine himself, fit into the Chaotic Evil-category to begin with. The Pagans are a faction that's been around for ages and don't fit well into the "modern" world of The City, but that doesn't make them either Chaotic or Evil. (But that's more the fault of the alignment axis for failing to take into account a Primitive-Progressive axis, but there ya go.) Chaotic Neutral (the one most attributed to the truly insane, or unfitting in society) is, sadly, the best place for them. Constantine is clearly Chaotic... but Evil? Good and Evil are subjective terms created by Man to justify his existence and actions, and marred by Man's perspective. Constantine is a god, his stance can obviously be translated into Evil by Man's opinion, but whether that axis even applies to him is a debate in and of itself. And that's before we factor in his perspective, that Man is a lesser being who must be dealt with. If a Man has ants in his house and seeks to remove them by any and all means, is he Evil for doing so? If the Ants had the means to reason and voice their opinions, would Man even care for it? Shift that argument up a level and you have an idea what's on Constantine's mind.

The Mechanists are probably the best fit of all the factions and antagonists, as they are clearly Lawful Evil. The Hammerites as a whole make for a nice Lawful Neutral, but the Mechanists clearly went over the edge somewhere. Karras is more of a Neutral Evil-kinda guy, as he clearly has lost touch with humans on various levels and wishes them dead, but still has to keep up appearances so he can lead the flock, so to say.

Then we get to the Keepers, who are True Neutrals all the way, and have had to do some despicable things along with decent things to maintain the balance. But Gamall is clearly Neutral Evil, or possibly even Lawful Evil, as she is only out for herself and will slaughter anyone who gets in her way, while simultaneously confining herself to the 'rules' of the Keepers.

Sadly what is lacking into this whole debate in regards to the Thief-universe, is a force that actually is Good to the core. A proper foil to all of these various factions of evil, so to say. Is that the Baron? We can't say. The City Watch could be molded into such a force, but as they were founded by Gorman Truart (he himself a pawn of the Mechanists) and its ranks filled with past criminals AND without the Baron's approval, they would have a ways to go in that regard.

To answer duskvile 's question, that is one plot angle I wouldn't mind seeing explored in a potential 'proper' Thief 4: Can the City Watch be reformed into a decent 'Good'-force in the city? Discworld-readers know what I'm on about, as the books chronicle how the city's Night Watch, a three-man operation barely keeping order in the streets, blossomed into the city's premier law-enforcement unit and symbol of progressivism via inclusion and diversity.

The obvious "passing of the torch"-aspect would also play its part (mainly because Stephen Russell himself is getting on in years) but another aspect I'd like to see covered is the public revelation of the Keepers. They're now exposed, known to all, and their entire history erased as Garrett pretty much shut off their Glyph Magic. What do you do with such a faction? You can't prove they did anything wrong, but at the same time everything hints strongly at it. And if the Keepers know it was Garrett who ended them, will they seek to take revenge against him for it?

Several interesting points to consider, of which Thiaf ignored them all.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The obvious "passing of the torch"-aspect would also play its part (mainly because Stephen Russell himself is getting on in years) but another aspect I'd like to see covered is the public revelation of the Keepers. They're now exposed, known to all, and their entire history erased as Garrett pretty much shut off their Glyph Magic. What do you do with such a faction? You can't prove they did anything wrong, but at the same time everything hints strongly at it. And if the Keepers know it was Garrett who ended them, will they seek to take revenge against him for it?

IIRC, when Garrett ends Gamall's illusion, she is revealed in front of the entire body of Keepers and proceeds to kills several of them, and in Gamall's final scene there are Keepers arriving to capture (kill?) her. Furthermore, the last scene of the game shows Garrett catching a girl pickpocket and remarking that it is difficult to see a Keeper that does not wish to be seen, in a callback to the opening scene of the first Thief game. I always took that to indicate Garrett was again a member of the Keepers, possibly even their leader, though the faction would now need to rely on their non-magical abilities, sans glyph powers, and obviously would have abandoned their tower, since it lost its invisibility.

The fourth game would begin when that girl pickpocket has reached adulthood, and it would reveal how the Keepers have altered and persisted over the years since the demise of glyph magic.

 

[Morgoth]

So much text being wasted on such a shit game. FFS taffers, get a grip.

 

[Beowulf]

So much text being wasted on such a shit game. FFS taffers, get a grip.

That's why I read only the first and the last line of every post in this thread.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Unkillable cat was writing about a hyptothetical proper Thief 4 though, not that abominiation...

 

[Blutwurstritter]

If you had to reimagined the story of real Thief 4 after the events of Deadly shadows, how would you do it?

The ending of Thief 3: Deadly Shadows suggested the premise of a fourth Thief game; since Garrett has already saved the world three times, he would pass the torch to a protege. However, there would need to be a different sort of villain that the plot of the fourth game would revolve around; since the first three Thief games already featured Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil, and Neutral Evil villains, the series would need to shift away from its focus on alignment. Perhaps there could be a politically-oriented plot, with the Baron finally returning to the City with the war having reached a conclusion.

As in the first three games, Garrett should involuntarily get caught up in some plot. I would have liked it if other "factions" that have played minor roles got some spot light, like alchemists, necromancers, wizards, pirates/smugglers. And a return of the mechanists in some form would be nice, or at least their inventions. There is clearly a power gap opening with the weakening of the Keepers, that could serve well as motivator for the rise of a new faction to power. Perhaps involving a new drug that hits the city, or trafficking of humans of some sort. Not exactly the most original ideas but a solid starting point that could involve all factions and lead to a power struggle where Garrett somehow ends up in the middle things again, which also fits the darker nature of the games, with room to involve the weird mystic aspects.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Thief 4 feels like an eurojank bootleg of Dishonored, which makes it being Thief 4 all the more sadder

 

[Baron Dupek]

That would be offensive for eurojank in general.
They're rough gems - interesting ideas and good parts overlooked by the bugs and lack of polish.

Thi4f have no redeeming qualities. It's just modern devs badly imitating old art... with their advanced tools, that are more limiting than the old ones.

 

[NecroLord]

If you had to reimagined the story of real Thief 4 after the events of Deadly shadows, how would you do it?

The ending of Thief 3: Deadly Shadows suggested the premise of a fourth Thief game; since Garrett has already saved the world three times, he would pass the torch to a protege. However, there would need to be a different sort of villain that the plot of the fourth game would revolve around; since the first three Thief games already featured Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil, and Neutral Evil villains, the series would need to shift away from its focus on alignment. Perhaps there could be a politically-oriented plot, with the Baron finally returning to the City with the war having reached a conclusion.

Interesting comparison to the D&D alignment-chart, but one that is somewhat flawed IMO.

Neither the Pagans as a faction, nor Constantine himself, fit into the Chaotic Evil-category to begin with. The Pagans are a faction that's been around for ages and don't fit well into the "modern" world of The City, but that doesn't make them either Chaotic or Evil. (But that's more the fault of the alignment axis for failing to take into account a Primitive-Progressive axis, but there ya go.) Chaotic Neutral (the one most attributed to the truly insane, or unfitting in society) is, sadly, the best place for them. Constantine is clearly Chaotic... but Evil? Good and Evil are subjective terms created by Man to justify his existence and actions, and marred by Man's perspective. Constantine is a god, his stance can obviously be translated into Evil by Man's opinion, but whether that axis even applies to him is a debate in and of itself. And that's before we factor in his perspective, that Man is a lesser being who must be dealt with. If a Man has ants in his house and seeks to remove them by any and all means, is he Evil for doing so? If the Ants had the means to reason and voice their opinions, would Man even care for it? Shift that argument up a level and you have an idea what's on Constantine's mind.

The Mechanists are probably the best fit of all the factions and antagonists, as they are clearly Lawful Evil. The Hammerites as a whole make for a nice Lawful Neutral, but the Mechanists clearly went over the edge somewhere. Karras is more of a Neutral Evil-kinda guy, as he clearly has lost touch with humans on various levels and wishes them dead, but still has to keep up appearances so he can lead the flock, so to say.

Then we get to the Keepers, who are True Neutrals all the way, and have had to do some despicable things along with decent things to maintain the balance. But Gamall is clearly Neutral Evil, or possibly even Lawful Evil, as she is only out for herself and will slaughter anyone who gets in her way, while simultaneously confining herself to the 'rules' of the Keepers.

Sadly what is lacking into this whole debate in regards to the Thief-universe, is a force that actually is Good to the core. A proper foil to all of these various factions of evil, so to say. Is that the Baron? We can't say. The City Watch could be molded into such a force, but as they were founded by Gordon Truart (he himself a pawn of the Mechanists) and its ranks filled with past criminals AND without the Baron's approval, they would have a ways to go in that regard.

To answer duskvile 's question, that is one plot angle I wouldn't mind seeing explored in a potential 'proper' Thief 4: Can the City Watch be reformed into a decent 'Good'-force in the city? Discworld-readers know what I'm on about, as the books chronicle how the city's Night Watch, a three-man operation barely keeping order in the streets, blossomed into the city's premier law-enforcement unit and symbol of progressivism via inclusion and diversity.

The obvious "passing of the torch"-aspect would also play its part (mainly because Stephen Russell himself is getting on in years) but another aspect I'd like to see covered is the public revelation of the Keepers. They're now exposed, known to all, and their entire history erased as Garrett pretty much shut off their Glyph Magic. What do you do with such a faction? You can't prove they did anything wrong, but at the same time everything hints strongly at it. And if the Keepers know it was Garrett who ended them, will they seek to take revenge against him for it?

Several interesting points to consider, of which Thiaf ignored them all.

Chaos vs Order.
Nature vs Technology.
That's the way I always saw the cosmic struggle of Thief.