The writing in this game is average

[agentorange]

remember how assassins attacked you at the beginning of arcanum, and being attacked by said assassin's made you wonder just what sort of shit you had gotten yourself into?

remember how someone tells you about how they were attacked by assassins at some point in PoE. and then someone else tells you that maybe those assassins are looking for you too. and then you get attacked by spiders and kobolds lizard midgets.

remember how you are given a time frame in which your vault will run out of water in fallout, and you must question the people you come across, sometimes help them out, in order to gain information about how to resolve the water crisis?

remember how someone tells you that you are going insane in PoE, and then people keep asking you if you are going insane. and then you go to some city and do a bunch of quests that have nothing to do with you going insane.

 

[Duraframe300]

NV main plot motivation was also complete garbage and irrelevant to the player because the game was TELLING you what happened and how motivated you should fucking feel, instead of letting you experience it.
- just thought to point that out.

also, i dont think Angelina is well, generally speaking... and i feel sorry for her.

You go to Defiency Bay in Act 2 to investigate who may hold the cure for your impeding madness. Pay more attention to the story next time. Seems like you people can't read more than a few lines. Must be the MTV generation and that ADHD I keep hearing about.

The point esteemed colleague is making is that as actual motivation the player should feel, the way the plot is presented - is close to zero.

What you are saying is that the story is interesting enough to follow up and see where it goes.

Different things.

Oh, ok. Yeah, for me its something similiar. If I can make up my own motivation I'm happy (Which is why I didn't have a problem with NV).

What I'm worried that the game would activly argue against my own motivation... Which in retrospect was a leap to answer from that perspective to felipepe's post. my fault.

Irenaeus she does some things for fear of cancer

 

[Irenaeus]

Don't be a

, Irenaeus.

Too late.

 

[Aenra]

Except that your madness isn't impending at all

Ok, but how could it have become such? Timers before...what...? Total destruction? You die? But you did! Story should have been entirely different. This isn't the apocalypse. Or a meta-level of one, not really. Debufffs getting gradually stronger? So many combat mechanics that would have had to be changed. Again.. and they already re-did most of them once mind you.
Now i am not trying to start a new 'timers' discussion, but i also don't understand how you'd prefer it. You said it yourself:

PoE is story-driven

So how would you make it impending, sans the mechanics, while simultaneously keeping it story-centric? Am honestly curious;
Was personally more than content following through to the next Act, not because i was actually expecting a cure (game would end), but just because i wanted more of it. Part curious, part loving the overall "mood" within the game.

edit: Before you say Fallout Fallout was open, had a contextual background to complement said openess, and was defnitely not about "story", but more about your input on the world. Choices, approaches, etc

 

[felipepepe]

The fact that it's story-driven should make the mechanics work even harder to convey the story, not the opposite. And, as I said, there are so many toggables on the options menu, just make "Insanity" another one. They have 4 difficulty options with every encounter being re-balanced, that probably took a lot more effort.

I would go full blown: mistakenly interacting with ghost NPCs in the cities, getting weird debuffs, not fully recovering from sleep... and make it progressively get worse (if not purely by time, then by story progression), to the point where by the end you are targeting enemies from past lives mid-combat, unable to tell them apart. If you want to do an insanity plot, do it well.

 

[Darth Roxor]

My favourite part is how initially you keep seeing them ghosts all the time just walking around everywhere around Gilded Vale and Valewood like a very bad attempt at System Shock 2, and then you just see one once every blue moon.

 

[hiver]

No reason to have weird debuffs though, that seems unnecessarily crude, especially if you couldnt sleep and would suffer minor inconveniences because of it.

But running around dealing with various "ghost" quests and complicated real quests only to later discover you were tricked, or duped or used or abused by various souls and "ghosts" - and as a result causing a lot of problems of all kinds and a lot of diverse C&C back in the "real world" would be awesome to experience and to play.

Being bale to see glimpses of living peoples souls to get hints about what they really want or plan... but not easily and not for free...

 

[Duraframe300]

The fact that it's story-driven should make the mechanics work even harder to convey the story, not the opposite. And, as I said, there are so many toggables on the options menu, just make "Insanity" another one. They have 4 difficulty options with every encounter being re-balanced, that probably took a lot more effort.

I would go full blown: mistakenly interacting with ghost NPCs in the cities, getting weird debuffs, not fully recovering from sleep... and make it progressively get worse (if not purely by time, then by story progression), to the point where by the end you are targeting enemies from past lives mid-combat, unable to tell them apart. If you want to do an insanity plot, do it well.

Honestly, that is one of my crpg fantasies (Apart from a pure survival rpg). Narrative systems that constantly trick and manipulate the player.

Gets me giddy.

 

[Aenra]

I would go full blown: mistakenly interacting with ghost NPCs in the cities, getting weird debuffs, not fully recovering from sleep... and make it progressively get worse (if not purely by time, then by story progression), to the point where by the end you are targeting enemies from past lives mid-combat, unable to tell them apart. If you want to do an insanity plot, do it well.

i would like that actually.. a lot :D

edit:

running around dealing with various "ghost" quests and complicated real quests only to later discover you were tricked, or duped or used or abused by various souls and "ghosts" - and as a result causing a lot of problems of all kinds and a lot of diverse C&C back in the "real world" would be awesome to experience and to play ... Being bale to see glimpses of living peoples souls to get hints about what they really want or plan... but not easily and not for free...

that too

 

[felipepepe]

There were so many possibilities... make a companion that killed you in a previous life, and you have flashbacks that make you attack him. When you enter the ruins, make your character wake up possessed by a Glanfath previous life and attack your comrades for trespassing. Learn to recall your past Engwithian soul to understand their language, not the stupid "take this" nonsense they did...Hell, one of your previous life was as an Inquisitor, why you don't get possessed by it and do some crazy shit? Just imagine how cool it would be if you burned the Sanitarium yourself for heresy while possessed. Even Aloth's Awakening comes more in play than yours, as horribly underplayed as it is.

It's such a waste that, except for the very ending, the plot would work better if the bad guy had just stolen part of your soul and you went to get it back.

 

[Aenra]

now you're gonna ruin it all for me... it's f.i.n.e. as it is, ok!?

 

[felipepepe]

It's still a great game, and a wonderful opener for a new series.

It shines bright on the individual pieces, like Durance, but once you put everything together analyze it you'll see many wasted opportunities, not all of which they can blame on the budget.

 

[polo]

It's such a waste that, except for the very ending, the plot would work better if the bad guy had just stolen part of your soul and you went to get it back.

Hmm that reminds of another game... I'm not sure which one tho...

 

[hiver]

There were so many possibilities... make a companion that killed you in a previous life, and you have flashbacks that make you attack him.

No, no... lets not force the players hand.

Instead, make the player see that past life/memory and then have that companion brag about how he killed some asshole or tricked some asshole - constantly.
When you have a dialogue with that companion let him retell that story over and over adding more details - until the player really wants to kill him. And add some additional physical motivation. Then watch players go all :NNNNNNGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!:

When you enter the ruins, make your character wake up possessed by a Glanfath previous life and attack your comrades for trespassing.

Wouldnt that result in immediate reloads? - or would there be ways to end such forced battles in non-lethal ways, ey?

How about when Glanfath soul takes you, you get different quests to handle? And it doesnt let go until you finish what it wants? But you as a Watcher can still influence it - have some options how to go about it, instead of being a puppet?

How about invading other NPCs and using them as body puppets to do your biding?

Learn to recall your past Engwithian soul to understand their language, not the stupid "take this" nonsense they did...

Yeah, of course.

Hell, one of your previous life was as an Inquisitor, why you don't get possessed by it and do some crazy shit? Just imagine how cool it would be if you burned the Sanitarium yourself for heresy while possessed.

Again, forcing players hand a bit too much... how about making a quest chain out of it and giving player some options instead?

It's still a great game, and a wonderful opener for a new series.
It shines bright on the individual pieces, like Durance, but once you put everything together analyze it you'll see many wasted opportunities, not all of which they can blame on the budget.

I dont buy that shit at all. Weve been fucking listening to that same schtick of "TEH NEXT GAEM will do it right!" for twenty years plus now.

We should stop imagining they can do it at all. If they could then they would by now.

We should make the game ourselves.

 

[agentorange]

devastating, controversial weapon used to end a conflict: KOTOR 2 - the mass shadow generator, PoE - the godhammer
a companion touched in the head who also holds a grudge against the main character for their past actions: Planescape - Ignus, New Vegas - Ulysses, PoE - Durance
a story dealing with the actions of an individuals past life, reincarnation: Planescape - Nameless One, PoE - main dude and others
being separated from a vital force: KOTOR 2 - being severed from the force, PoE - the hollows, having one's soul destroyed

 

[felipepepe]

When you enter the ruins, make your character wake up possessed by a Glanfath previous life and attack your comrades for trespassing.

Wouldn't that result in immediate reloads? - or would there be ways to end such forced battles in non-lethal ways, ey?

I meant as a scripted event, not a real in-game battle. Your party wakes up with you attacking them, then subdue you. They'll all lose part of their Health until next rest, and grow more suspicious and wary of you. That would show just how insane your character is.

How about when Glanfath soul takes you, you get different quests to handle? And it doesn't let go until you finish what it wants? But you as a Watcher can still influence it - have some options how to go about it, instead of being a puppet?

This is a really cool idea.

Hell, one of your previous life was as an Inquisitor, why you don't get possessed by it and do some crazy shit? Just imagine how cool it would be if you burned the Sanitarium yourself for heresy while possessed.

Again, forcing players hand a bit too much... how about making a quest chain out of it and giving player some options instead?

I think sometimes you must force the players hand. The whole deal is about how you are going insane as you get overwhelmed by your past lives. Having a past life taking control of your body and doing something horrible would state that point without a shadow of a doubt.

That's the bottom line here anyway, it's all too tame. Getting rid of publishers allowed for old-school mechanics and visuals, but didn't result in any new-found boldness in writing.

 

[Angthoron]

Hm, it's always nice to discuss what could've been, but maybe it'll be more useful to discuss what actually is.

And what is, is that I reached the bottom of the Endless Paths and killed the main baddie. Thoughts: Okay, I knew that this was a combat-centric crawl and not really a story, but since Obsidian created a story around it, I'd have liked it to have a better pay-off. The pre-boss talk to a major lore character was sort of nice (though a bit brief and circular) but the final baddie's dialogue was just poor, and the skill checks in it completely pointless.

"[Resolve: 18] HO BEASTIE IMMA CAP YO ASS IF YOU DON'T FUCK OFF MATE" : Success
"OHOHO MATE I SEE YOU'RE A FEISTY ONE I WILL KILL YOU AND ENJOY YOUR FEISTINESS IN DEATH"
COMBAT STARTAN

Why even have those checks? If every solution leads to combat, don't start raising expectations. Mein gott, this isn't hard! (is what she said)

 

[felipepepe]

Why even have those checks? If every solution leads to combat, don't start raising expectations. Mein gott, this isn't hard! (is what she said)

Explore the dialog with more care, and remember that checks are not always the best possible answer (something I enjoy).

 

[Angthoron]

Why even have those checks? If every solution leads to combat, don't start raising expectations. Mein gott, this isn't hard! (is what she said)

Explore the dialog with more care, and remember that checks are not always the best possible answer.

Hm, good point, though it's still a strange choice, to tie a skillcheck to an inferior solution that gives no benefit over simply pressing YO GOIN DOWN BEYOTCH button.

 

[felipepepe]

Yes, I get the feeling that that last encounter was rushed, as there's only two solutions to it... and the second one SCREAMS for a third path:

Spoiler

You can help the Dragon escape the Endless Paths by transferring her essence into a human... but you cannot kill the human afterwards.

 

[Stompa]

remember how someone tells you about how they were attacked by assassins at some point in PoE. and then someone else tells you that maybe those assassins are looking for you too. and then you get attacked by spiders and kobolds lizard midgets.

Spoiler

You get attacked by assassins several times over the course of the game in PoE.

 

[hiver]

When you enter the ruins, make your character wake up possessed by a Glanfath previous life and attack your comrades for trespassing.

Wouldn't that result in immediate reloads? - or would there be ways to end such forced battles in non-lethal ways, ey?

I meant as a scripted event, not a real in-game battle.
Your party wakes up with you attacking them, then subdue you. They'll all lose part of their Health until next rest, and grow more suspicious and wary of you. That would show just how insane your character is.

Dear god... a... a... a cutscene?

No,no,no, no... Nope. No.
All must be experienced directly by the player. No telling of any kind for such crucial story based gameplay should be used.

How about when Glanfath soul takes you, you get different quests to handle? And it doesn't let go until you finish what it wants? But you as a Watcher can still influence it - have some options how to go about it, instead of being a puppet?

This is a really cool idea.

And of course the consequences of those quests would affect your quests and the main plot - in different ways.

Hell, one of your previous life was as an Inquisitor, why you don't get possessed by it and do some crazy shit? Just imagine how cool it would be if you burned the Sanitarium yourself for heresy while possessed.

Again, forcing players hand a bit too much... how about making a quest chain out of it and giving player some options instead?

I think sometimes you must force the players hand. The whole deal is about how you are going insane as you get overwhelmed by your past lives. Having a past life taking control of your body and doing something horrible would state that point without a shadow of a doubt.

Yes but if you aim that against the companions then you have to design some non-lethal mechanics else you are always risking some companion ending up dead - which would force everyone to reload and so on.
Which then forces you to make cutscenes about it... which brings you back full circle to the problem you started with, only wrapped in different foil.

its an ok starting point but i think something far better can be invented when it comes to interaction with companions, based on such a story. killing them or doing it in cutscenes to avoid actually killing them is not the answer.

I wouldnt mind having non-lethal mechanics and gameplay based on that, but im constraining my logic to whats available in the game right now, for this thought experiment.

That's the bottom line here anyway, it's all too tame. Getting rid of publishers allowed for old-school mechanics and visuals, but didn't result in any new-found boldness in writing.

Agreed. They are aiming for the same audience as always, - sans publishers. The imaginary casuals that dont really exist; as an audience that really likes these games.

Why even have those checks? If every solution leads to combat, don't start raising expectations. Mein gott, this isn't hard! (is what she said)

Explore the dialog with more care, and remember that checks are not always the best possible answer (something I enjoy).

I like how they did that, generally.

Im wondering is there any differences based on what you decided to do with Maerwald soul though.
Simple yes or no will suffice. No spoiling pls.

Im figuring it wont be much of a difference, but the situation was presented in a way that makes one expect at least something.

 

[Doktor Best]

How is the alternative sitting on your ass doing nothing and hope that you aren't going to be insane such a logical step to take for you?

because the fucking game does absolutely nothing to show you will go insane..

Nothing? What about Maelorn, who had the same thing happen to him some years ago and clearly went mad in the process?

 

[Angthoron]

How is the alternative sitting on your ass doing nothing and hope that you aren't going to be insane such a logical step to take for you?

because the fucking game does absolutely nothing to show you will go insane..

Nothing? What about Maelorn, who had the same thing happen to him some years ago and clearly went mad in the process?

He isn't you.

In general, the whole "madness" subplot is completely pointless. I get it, it's the Bhaal's Curse, but what's the point? There's nothing in the game that makes it personal, urgent, or important, in fact I dismissed it out of hand right away and have pretty much ignored the thing ever since, largely due to the fact that it's pretty much never brought up or addressed. Ah yes, you have trouble sleeping, apparently, that's what your party NPCs mention once every Act. Well, paint me impressed.

It wasn't necessary - in fact the whole "try to get rid of" plot isn't necessary, because why? Especially if you're already a Cipher, why the hell would you want to get rid of it? It's like moaning because you were bitten by a radioactive spider and got superpowersOHWAIT.

 

[hiver]

Thats not my quote, btw.

and also, felipepepe suddenly berserking and going after companions is so BG2.
Only it was done much more effectively there, you turning into 3 meters tall monster and all. And that being directly connected to the story.
The Watcher of souls doesnt provide that kind of singleminded murderous vibe exactly.