KickStarter The Wayward Realms - upcoming Daggerfall-like RPG from original Elder Scrolls developers

[Bad Sector]

What would be the point of that? You can play Daggerfall (and Daggerfall Unity) if you want a procgen fantasy world with Daggerfall graphics.

TBH i do not see the issue with the graphics shown so far, if they can do a decent procgen world it'd be an interesting game. Remember than in that video interview that LeFay had a few years ago he wanted to make a game where there'd be great expanses between settlements to make travel meaningful.

It is something i've been thinking about too recently, i've been reading a bunch of fantasy stories and in a bunch of them traveling from point A to point B with a group of people is a large part of the story, but i can't really think of any game that gives you that sort of experience. Game world sizes tend to be small that it is a matter of minutes to go between major cities.

A procgen world can solve that though of course it also needs to generate interesting *problems* along the way (not just spawn monsters around you or stuff like that).

 

[NecroLord]

If they can bring back those gargantuan sized dungeons filled with creepy skeletons who scream like stuck banshees then I am most definitely interested.

 

[gurugeorge]

It is something i've been thinking about too recently, i've been reading a bunch of fantasy stories and in a bunch of them traveling from point A to point B with a group of people is a large part of the story, but i can't really think of any game that gives you that sort of experience. Game world sizes tend to be small that it is a matter of minutes to go between major cities.

I've always thought that about RPGs. I remember being excited by Baldur's Gate precisely because it had a little bit of that sense of getting from A to B. Any game that even has a nod in that direction fleshes out the feel of the world, even if it doesn't have gameplay elements (e.g. in Solasta, the charming little glimpses of camp life on the bottom left, the possiblity of ambushes - although even there, more effort could be put into having more than like 3 or 4 standard ambush sites).

It's not as if you can't find gameplay that would be appropriate (it could be part resource management, part hunting say, plus of course follower conversations, ambushes, assassination attempts, etc.). And the popularity of "realism" mods in Skyrim show there's a desire for it.

I guess it's always been a bit too much to put on devs' plates to include that sort of thing, as it would require, exactly, a large open world for it to work well and the quest design would have to weave into it properly.

 

[Kabas]

If they can bring back those gargantuan sized dungeons filled with creepy skeletons who scream like stuck banshees then I am most definitely interested.

Daggerfall sound design is amazing, can't stress that enough.
After a certain point you hear a very specific guttural roar and you instantly realise there is one these motherfuckers

standing in the corridor ahead. Meaning a certain death for you dwarven sword wielding ass if you continue on your way

I've always thought that about RPGs...

A journey-based rpg could work methinks. Something similar to FTL, only not necessary with the spaceship combat.

 

[Bad Sector]

I've always thought that about RPGs. I remember being excited by Baldur's Gate precisely because it had a little bit of that sense of getting from A to B. [...] And the popularity of "realism" mods in Skyrim show there's a desire for it. [...] I guess it's always been a bit too much to put on devs' plates to include that sort of thing, as it would require, exactly, a large open world for it to work well and the quest design would have to weave into it properly.

Yeah, there are games where the is a plot point of going from point A to point B, but what i had in mind was more "hands on" - kinda like Skyrim but with a world size that makes the supposedly large distances feel actually large and crossing some mountain isn't about keeping W down for a minute or so :-P. This pretty much necessitates an enormous world which can only be made via procedural and random generation (not necessarily fully random, a designer can do the high level world layout, etc, but instead of -e.g.- placing trees or whatever by hand, they'd control the rules for how some area of the world will be planted). And to remain interesting it also needs several simulated systems that can actually carry the game without scripting (while you can script some stuff it is impractical to script everything in an enormous world) and some sort of "quest generator / director" (think more like how Dwarf Fortress generates world histories and backstories and less the search&replace radiant quests in Skyrim).

Also FWIW i think such a setup would fit a party-based game a bit more than a solo PC game, especially if you can hire people for the journey. Though of course this goes a bit towards a different direction than what The Wayward Realms seems to want to do (or the inspirations for it).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

think more like how Dwarf Fortress generates world histories and backstories and less the search&replace radiant quests in Skyrim

you'd probably be interested in this video

quite dated now though(7 years old), still contains a lot of info, there's a more recent video covering it


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Ratio_Regum_(video_game)
It's basically Dwarf Fortress's story generator on steroids.

 

[Bad Sector]

you'd probably be interested in this video

Thanks i'll check those videos out later.

 

[gurugeorge]

I've always thought that about RPGs. I remember being excited by Baldur's Gate precisely because it had a little bit of that sense of getting from A to B. [...] And the popularity of "realism" mods in Skyrim show there's a desire for it. [...] I guess it's always been a bit too much to put on devs' plates to include that sort of thing, as it would require, exactly, a large open world for it to work well and the quest design would have to weave into it properly.

Yeah, there are games where the is a plot point of going from point A to point B, but what i had in mind was more "hands on" - kinda like Skyrim but with a world size that makes the supposedly large distances feel actually large and crossing some mountain isn't about keeping W down for a minute or so :-P. This pretty much necessitates an enormous world which can only be made via procedural and random generation (not necessarily fully random, a designer can do the high level world layout, etc, but instead of -e.g.- placing trees or whatever by hand, they'd control the rules for how some area of the world will be planted). And to remain interesting it also needs several simulated systems that can actually carry the game without scripting (while you can script some stuff it is impractical to script everything in an enormous world) and some sort of "quest generator / director" (think more like how Dwarf Fortress generates world histories and backstories and less the search&replace radiant quests in Skyrim).

Also FWIW i think such a setup would fit a party-based game a bit more than a solo PC game, especially if you can hire people for the journey. Though of course this goes a bit towards a different direction than what The Wayward Realms seems to want to do (or the inspirations for it).

I wasn't even thinking about a big A to B based story, but just getting from one quest to another. (Bob in town A asks you to go to the barrows a day's ride outside town and look into the rumours of ghosts, etc.)

I think even in a big open world game, you do have to have some sort of main story that's gradually revealed - best in the form of some kind of mystery that has to be solved (not like the MQs with fake urgency in the Bethesda games or in Cyberpunk 2077, that's the worst of both worlds). That way you can choose to solve the mystery or not, at your own pace, and/or choose to do the procedurally generated content and a few hand-placed dungeons here and there. (If you don't have that, then for some people they're going to be unsatisfied that they didn't "finish" something.)

 

[Bad Sector]

I think even in a big open world game, you do have to have some sort of main story that's gradually revealed - best in the form of some kind of mystery that has to be solved (not like the MQs with fake urgency in the Bethesda games or in Cyberpunk 2077, that's the worst of both worlds). That way you can choose to solve the mystery or not, at your own pace, and/or choose to do the procedurally generated content and a few hand-placed dungeons here and there. (If you don't have that, then for some people they're going to be unsatisfied that they didn't "finish" something.)

Yeah but that is independent to having a big world or not really - in any game where you do not follow a linear progression but instead you are left to your own devices having anything with fake urgency clashes with the game's mechanics.

Though, as a sidenote i think "mystery" is a bit too restrictive, it can be more than that - basically anything that doesn't clash with what the game actually lets you and expects you to do. For example, even though the game's implementation was too scripted and not that great, Dragon Age 2's idea of improving/restoring your family's wealth and status is IMO a good (and underused) concept that could drive an open ended game without placing any sort of fake time limits. Also while it wasn't the main quest (AFAIR), Skyrim's idea of taking part (or trying to avoid taking part, though IIRC there wasn't an active way to do that in Skyrim) in a civil war is also something that can work (it could also work for the whole traveling from point A to point B - e.g. by trying to avoid areas with enemies). Though again would need deeper systems than what you'd see in something like Skyrim to avoid looking too artificial and repetitive.

 

[The Wall]

More screenshots. The moon is made of feta cheese in this world.

Spoiler

Fake screenshots is much, much, much more then I thought they'll ever be capable to produce. Seems that Julian LeFay, Ted Peterson and Skyrim modders might make something, after all

No NPC 3D models with working AI yet, thou. Who knows, maybe they'll even make super innovative, hype pumping and super fake DEMO, like Bethesda did with Oblivion in 2006. Let's give them time

 

[The Wall]

They should have just used the old Daggerfall graphics.

Agreed with Israeli. I'd make Daggerfall 2 with best artists in similar graphic style to Daggerfall 1, but in higher resolution. That would free up resources needed for gameplay, dungeoneering, quests, world simulation and factions. Also would speed up production ×3/×4 times

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

They should have just used the old Daggerfall graphics.

Agreed with Israeli. I'd make Daggerfall 2 with best artists in similar graphic style to Daggerfall 1, but in higher resolution. That would free up resources needed for gameplay, dungeoneering, quests, world simulation and factions. Also would speed up production ×3/×4 times

They could probably get a much better and much more diverse dungeons too with improved procedural generation.

 

[The Wall]

Agreed, shalom. Daggerfall 2, GTA Vice City 2 or Gothic 3, if they all released today with same or improved lvl of gameplay, immersion, world simulation and story telling as their predecessors, they'd be SMASHING HITS. Morrowind 2 with HD graphics, would f0kin dominate Steam TOP SELLER charts. Gloomwood is living proof of that. For some reason, too many indies chase photo-realism. Focus on gameplay. Graphics with good art style are timeless

 

[NecroLord]

Agreed, shalom. Daggerfall 2, GTA Vice City 2 or Gothic 3, if they all released today with same or improved lvl of gameplay, immersion, world simulation and story telling as their predecessors, they'd be SMASHING HITS. Morrowind 2 with HD graphics, would f0kin dominate Steam TOP SELLER charts. Gloomwood is living proof of that. For some reason, too many indies chase photo-realism. Focus on gameplay. Graphics with good art style are timeless

Yep. I remember when Vice City was killing it,few complained about the graphics,but the art style was phenomenal. Neon Lights,beaches,sunrays,the soundtrack and sound design.
We need RPG's with style and detailed gameplay.

 

[The Wall]

We need RPG's with style and detailed gameplay.

My gaming studio in Belgrade will start soon preparations for making of one such RPG. HD GTA Vice City/ San Andreas graphical fidelity, style, RPG stats gallore, iconic music, mid story supernatural plot twist (all conspiracy theories, as our modern mythology, are literary true), living world and many mechanics to interact with it in fun ways. Settings currently discussed are: Yakuza in 80s Tokyo, Italian mafia in Las Vegas 60s and Belgrade gangsters in 90s with time jump to 2020. We'll choose one of those. Great yet cheap to licence music is big factor, which weights heavily in favor of option1 and option3. Don't worry, there will be casino. I hate GTAlikes without functioning casino

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Agreed, shalom. Daggerfall 2, GTA Vice City 2 or Gothic 3, if they all released today with same or improved lvl of gameplay, immersion, world simulation and story telling as their predecessors, they'd be SMASHING HITS. Morrowind 2 with HD graphics, would f0kin dominate Steam TOP SELLER charts. Gloomwood is living proof of that. For some reason, too many indies chase photo-realism. Focus on gameplay. Graphics with good art style are timeless

Finally. A truly good... no... GREAT goy on this website. Shalom goy.

 

[The Wall]

I'll DM you when I'll need accountant and that money counting machine from Scarface movie. Push It To The Limit.mp3

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

If they can bring back those gargantuan sized dungeons filled with creepy skeletons who scream like stuck banshees then I am most definitely interested.

I'm most looking forward to the nymphs or those daedra seductresses who take off their clothes to fight. Though female thieves that wear the mini skirt and the temple strippers... I mean healers are pretty nice too.

Too bad all the temples have an evil Aryan NAZI allowed inside that asks for donations (I'm never going to pay them). I would still roleplay auchwitz prison guard with her if you know what I am saying.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Agreed, shalom. Daggerfall 2, GTA Vice City 2 or Gothic 3, if they all released today with same or improved lvl of gameplay, immersion, world simulation and story telling as their predecessors, they'd be SMASHING HITS. Morrowind 2 with HD graphics, would f0kin dominate Steam TOP SELLER charts. Gloomwood is living proof of that. For some reason, too many indies chase photo-realism. Focus on gameplay. Graphics with good art style are timeless

Yep. I remember when Vice City was killing it,few complained about the graphics,but the art style was phenomenal. Neon Lights,beaches,sunrays,the soundtrack and sound design.
We need RPG's with style and detailed gameplay.

It had the best radio station in all GTA games too

I also liked the money counterfeiting mission.

 

[NecroLord]

If they can bring back those gargantuan sized dungeons filled with creepy skeletons who scream like stuck banshees then I am most definitely interested.

I'm most looking forward to the nymphs or those daedra seductresses who take off their clothes to fight. Though female thieves that wear the mini skirt and the temple strippers... I mean healers are pretty nice too.

Too bad all the temples have an evil Aryan NAZI allowed inside that asks for donations (I'm never going to pay them). I would still roleplay auchwitz prison guard with her if you know what I am saying.

Haha. Yeah it is sometimes called DaggerTITS for a reason!

 

[Robotigan]

It is something i've been thinking about too recently, i've been reading a bunch of fantasy stories and in a bunch of them traveling from point A to point B with a group of people is a large part of the story, but i can't really think of any game that gives you that sort of experience. Game world sizes tend to be small that it is a matter of minutes to go between major cities.

Minecraft. Valheim. Judging by how massively popular these two games are despite being relatively simple, low-budget projects, I'd say there's a lot of latent demand for this kind of game experience. And apparently the Swedes are the only ones who realize it.

 

[Bad Sector]

Minecraft. Valheim.

Minecraft is really just a sandbox. As gurugeorge mentioned above, there also needs to be some overarching goal or story or something.

Valheim might be closer, though keep in mind that when i mentioned procedural generation i didn't mean random generation as in a roguelike, i meant it to "fill the details" for a manually designed world (think less of Minecraft and more of Daggerfall, even if the latter doesn't fit exactly to what i think of). Valheim's Steam page says it is procedural, though as many people conflate the two i'm not sure what exactly they mean.

I might check that one out once it comes out of early access - and hopefully comes out on GOG too.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Valheim might be closer, though keep in mind that when i mentioned procedural generation i didn't mean random generation as in a roguelike, i meant it to "fill the details" for a manually designed world (think less of Minecraft and more of Daggerfall, even if the latter doesn't fit exactly to what i think of). Valheim's Steam page says it is procedural, though as many people conflate the two i'm not sure what exactly they mean.

Bethesda has been doing this as far back as Oblivion. The environments are procedurally generated at design time then they begin working on the output.
It's clearly an underused area of development though, you can generate the basis of a dungeon in a few clicks then begin iterating upon it rather than having to repeatedly make them from scratch.

 

[Bad Sector]

Bethesda has been doing this as far back as Oblivion. The environments are procedurally generated at design time then they begin working on the output.
It's clearly an underused area of development though, you can generate the basis of a dungeon in a few clicks then begin iterating upon it rather than having to repeatedly make them from scratch.

AFAIK Bethesda only does this for the overworld terrain (and there is a tool for generating terrains) but they don't actually make everything like that and their world isn't procedural - after they generate it, they save it on disk as if it was made manually.

When i was at CDPR during Witcher 3 this is also what the designers did - though instead of being some editor tool, the terrain was made using an external tool (IIRC it was World Machine). The terrain was imported to the editor and the "painted on" with the terrain materials and placed everything else by hand (there was also some manual terrain modifications of course). I'd expect Bethesda's approach to be pretty much the same, judging from the tools they have released and their presentations over the years. I think the biggest difference would be that the artists at the time didn't make as modular 3D assets as those Bethesda's designers did (though IIRC there was a lot of texture reuse).

But none of that is what i have in mind - what i think is really way closer to Daggerfall than any later game Bethesda made. However it isn't exactly Daggerfall either because there is some high level manual design (e.g. where cities would be, how biomes would be set up, how dangerous areas would be, etc). Of course it is possible to just save everything on disk since despite being procedural it is also a static world in practice, but it'd probably take too much space to be practical even with decade old art asset quality. AFAIK even in Far Cry 4 with its at the time state of the art asset quality they used procedural generation for the terrain details alone instead of storing it on disk (this was referenced in passing in a presentation about Far Cry 4's use of virtual texturing so i'm not sure about the details). Pretty much everything i've described has been done in part in one game or another, it is just that i can't think of a game that combines them like the one i described in my original post a couple of days ago.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Minecraft. Valheim.

Minecraft is really just a sandbox.

Quite literally sometimes