KickStarter The Wayward Realms - upcoming Daggerfall-like RPG from original Elder Scrolls developers

[ADL]

They're using UE4. Julian has the "DM AI engine" built out though.

 

[RNGsus]

If you're going to have

Saw this over on RPGWatch.


https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1980

Exciting!

this is like saying "old vaudville comedians attept comeback in 2019"

The world needs Marx Bros. Maybe not zeppo.

 

[Makabb]

They're using UE4. Julian has the "DM AI engine" built out though.

There you go folks,

 

[Makabb]

Why this is not getting the attention it deserves?

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Why this is not getting the attention it deserves?

Because nothing exists yet.

 

[Shinji]

Once Lost has created a chart to show that perhaps some players feel satiated after exploring a dungeon for 2 hours because they had a dungeon to explore!

It wasn't made by them, but by Richard Bartle, one of the creators of the first MUD

He goes on to say that balancing things out is essential:

Tilting a MUD towards achievers would make it obsessed with gameplay. Players would spend their time looking for tactics to improve their position, and the presence of other players would become unnecessary. The result would be effectively a single-player adventure game (SUD?).

Tilting towards explorers would add depth and interest, but remove much of the activity. Spectacle would dominate over action, and again there would be no need for other players. The result of this is basically an online book.

Tilting towards socialisers removes all gameplay, and centres on communication. Eventually, all sense of the virtual world is lost, and a chatline or IRC-style CB program results.

Tilting towards killers is more difficult, because this type of player is parasitic on the other three types. The emphasis on causing grief has to be sacrificed in favour of the thrill of the chase, and bolstered by the use of quick-thinking and skill to overcome adversity in clever (but violent) ways. In other words, this becomes an arcade ("shoot 'em up") type of game.

It's a question of balance: if something is added to a MUD to tilt the graph one way, other mechanisms will need to be in place to counterbalance it (preferably automatically)

Here's a snippet from his research explaining each category in more detail -- which can be found at: https://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

Spoiler

Looking at each player type in more detail, then:

i) Achievers regard points-gathering and rising in levels as their main goal, and all is ultimately subserviant to this. Exploration is necessary only to find new sources of treasure, or improved ways of wringing points from it. Socialising is a relaxing method of discovering what other players know about the business of accumulating points, that their knowledge can be applied to the task of gaining riches. Killing is only necessary to eliminate rivals or people who get in the way, or to gain vast amounts of points (if points are awarded for killing other players).
Achievers say things like:

"I'm busy."
"Sure, I'll help you. What do I get?"
"So how do YOU kill the dragon, then?"
"Only 4211 points to go!"

ii) Explorers delight in having the game expose its internal machinations to them. They try progressively esoteric actions in wild, out-of-the-way places, looking for interesting features (ie. bugs) and figuring out how things work. Scoring points may be necessary to enter some next phase of exploration, but it's tedious, and anyone with half a brain can do it. Killing is quicker, and might be a constructive exercise in its own right, but it causes too much hassle in the long run if the deceased return to seek retribution. Socialising can be informative as a source of new ideas to try out, but most of what people say is irrelevant or old hat. The real fun comes only from discovery, and making the most complete set of maps in existence.
Explorers say things like:

"Hmm..."
"You mean you don't know the shortest route from <obscure
room 1> to <obscure room 2>?"
"I haven't tried that one, what's it do?"
"Why is it that if you carry the uranium you get radiation
sickness, and if you put it in a bag you still get it, but if
you put it in a bag and drop it then wait 20 seconds and pick it
up again, you don't?"

iii) Socialisers are interested in people, and what they have to say. The game is merely a backdrop, a common ground where things happen to players. Inter-player relationships are important: empathising with people, sympathising, joking, entertaining, listening; even merely observing people play can be rewarding - seeing them grow as individuals, maturing over time. Some exploration may be necessary so as to understand what everyone else is talking about, and points-scoring could be required to gain access to neat communicative spells available only to higher levels (as well as to obtain a certain status in the community). Killing, however, is something only ever to be excused if it's a futile, impulsive act of revenge, perpetrated upon someone who has caused intolerable pain to a dear friend. The only ultimately fulfilling thing is not how to rise levels or kill hapless drips; it's getting to know people, to undertand them, and to form beautiful, lasting relationships.
Socialisers say things like:

"Hi!"
"Yeah, well, I'm having trouble with my boyfriend."
"What happened? I missed it, I was talking."
"Really? Oh no! Gee, that's terrible! Are you sure? Awful, just
awful!"

iv) Killers get their kicks from imposing themselves on others. This may be "nice", ie. busybody do-gooding, but few people practice such an approach because the rewards (a warm, cosy inner glow, apparently) aren't very substantial. Much more commonly, people attack other players with a view to killing off their personae (hence the name for this style of play). The more massive the distress caused, the greater the killer's joy at having caused it. Normal points-scoring is usually required so as to become powerful enough to begin causing havoc in earnest, and exploration of a kind is necessary to discover new and ingenious ways to kill people. Even socialising is sometimes worthwhile beyond taunting a recent victim, for example in finding out someone's playing habits, or discussing tactics with fellow killers. They're all just means to an end, though; only in the knowledge that a real person, somewhere, is very upset by what you've just done, yet can themselves do nothing about it, is there any true adrenalin-shooting, juicy fun.
Killers says things like:

"Ha!"
"Coward!"
"Die!"
"Die! Die! Die!"

(Killers are people of few words).

He has also written a book on MMOs:
https://www.amazon.com/MMOs-Inside-Out-Massively-multiplayer-Role-playing/dp/1484217233

 

[Makabb]

Why this is not getting the attention it deserves?

Because nothing exists yet.

They told us what they are going to make aaand if to believe them, Julian already got the dungeon master engine created.

 

[Makabb]

a few more things from the video :

- they want to blur the lines between main quest and side quests
- When you complete a quest, the next quest will have something from the previous quest continuing the persistence in the world.


It sounds like this will be a sort of CYOA game, go into this town and the DM will create a quest for you, go into a cave instead of a town and the DM will create a quest for you here and it will continue wherever you go and the persistence will remain in the world.
This will give meaning to explore the huge world and visit the procedural content, because everywhere you go you will have a different and possibly unique quest depending on how advanced the dungeon master will be.

Clearly this has never been done before in a video game, and if they accomplish this with deep RPG mechanics, it should be fun to play.

 

[theSavant]

The question is, are these CYOA quests really that different than what Bethesda did in Skyrim with their endless quests? In Skyrim it was this "pool of infinite, similar quests for various factions" and you just were assigned one of these. None of these quests had any significant impact on the gameworld iirc. They were basically irrelevant. So if Once Lost Games wants to make it better, these quests would have to have impact on the gameworld, maybe completely change what happens in there. A tremendous task.

 

[Makabb]

The question is, are these CYOA quests really that different than what Bethesda did in Skyrim with their endless quests?

yes

In Skyrim it was this "pool of infinite, similar quests for various factions" and you just were assigned one of these.

You explained this yourself, it was a few similar quests on repeat in Skyrim.

None of these quests had any significant impact on the gameworld iirc.They were basically irrelevant.

Here they will have.

So if Once Lost Games wants to make it better, these quests would have to have impact on the gameworld, maybe completely change what happens in there. A tremendous task.

That's exactly what they want to do. (or atleast what they are telling us they want to do)

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Skyrim radiant quests were sort of an afterthought. Just small miscellaneous tasks to do. Once Lost wants to make large style, impactful quests with a virtual DM. I think OL's system will be much more in depth since they want to build the game around it (rather than an afterthought.)

 

[undecaf]

Skyrim radiant quests were sort of an afterthought.

Didn’t they originally plan for Skyrim to have nothing but ”radiant” quests, but then turned around when it didn’t ”just work”?

 

[Zer0wing]

Skyrim radiant quests were sort of an afterthought.

Didn’t they originally plan for Skyrim to have nothing but ”radiant” quests, but then turned around when it didn’t ”just work”?

They did? Because it does look like an afterthought in vanilla Skyrim.

 

[undecaf]

Didn’t they originally plan for Skyrim to have nothing but ”radiant” quests, but then turned around when it didn’t ”just work”?

They did? Because it does look like an afterthought in vanilla Skyrim.

I remember there were some talks about that back in those days. Someone with enough interest and time can check out what it was all about. I can’t remember any details, just that it was talked about briefly at some point.

The radiant quests do look and feel like afterthoughts, that’s certainly true, though.

 

[LudensCogitet]

The question is, are these CYOA quests really that different than what Bethesda did in Skyrim with their endless quests?

yes

In Skyrim it was this "pool of infinite, similar quests for various factions" and you just were assigned one of these.

You explained this yourself, it was a few similar quests on repeat in Skyrim.

None of these quests had any significant impact on the gameworld iirc.They were basically irrelevant.

Here they will have.

So if Once Lost Games wants to make it better, these quests would have to have impact on the gameworld, maybe completely change what happens in there. A tremendous task.

That's exactly what they want to do. (or atleast what they are telling us they want to do)

Hey, be excited. Imagine the possibilities. But I also recommend really trying to imagine them.

People exaggerate, other people take what they say farther than they mean. AI is not magic, and stories written by machine learning algorithms are absurd fever dreams.

If they really have what you are claiming they claim, and it isn't just "do the X for the Y in Z", then they may have one of the greatest breakthroughs in *computing itself* on their hands, not just video games.

I have serious doubts this is the case, or what Julian meant. But like I said, get psyched. I hope it works out.

 

[Makabb]

If they really have what you are claiming they claim, and it isn't just "do the X for the Y in Z", then they may have one of the greatest breakthroughs in *computing itself* on their hands, not just video games.

They wrote on their website that they have 'revolutionary technology', so maybe indeed.

www.oncelostgames.com

 

[Makabb]

Didn’t they originally plan for Skyrim to have nothing but ”radiant” quests, but then turned around when it didn’t ”just work”?

They did? Because it does look like an afterthought in vanilla Skyrim.

I remember there were some talks about that back in those days. Someone with enough interest and time can check out what it was all about. I can’t remember any details, just that it was talked about briefly at some point.

The radiant quests do look and feel like afterthoughts, that’s certainly true, though.

Todds vision of Elder Scrolls is a linear game....... the 'radiant quests' in Skyrim come from the last of the 'old guard' developers in Bethesda, Bruce Nesmith, the only one in Bethesda who remains from Daggerfall times.

 

[ADL]

At this point I think any expectation of Todd's team to create "emergent gameplay" using systems that create such scenarios are delusional at best. Claims of radiant AI and quests were and will continue to be 100% bullshit.

 

[thesecret1]

I've never seen any sort of "procedural quest" be any fun, so I remain sceptical. Generally, if I can tell that a quest is procedural, then it's shit, as it means I can tell it doesn't fit in the game world. That there's something artificial about it – gameworld is not impacted, it repeats in different variations over and over, there is no unique text to go with it (usually something like "Bring me <insert item> and I will reward you with <insert reward>, oh adventurer!"), sends me to places I've already explored and looted, etc.

 

[ADL]

re's something artificial about it – gameworld is not impacted, it repeats in different variations over and over, there is no unique text to go with it (usually something like "Bring me <insert item> and I will reward you with <insert reward>, oh adventurer!"), sends me to places I've already explored and looted, etc.

Have you ever played Daggerfall? You'll definitely notice a structure to the quests and dialog but that was done with a skeleton crew on a shoestring budget 23 years ago.

 

[Makabb]

I've never seen any sort of "procedural quest" be any fun, so I remain sceptical. Generally, if I can tell that a quest is procedural, then it's shit, as it means I can tell it doesn't fit in the game world. That there's something artificial about it – gameworld is not impacted, it repeats in different variations over and over, there is no unique text to go with it (usually something like "Bring me <insert item> and I will reward you with <insert reward>, oh adventurer!"), sends me to places I've already explored and looted, etc.

They are not making procedural quests, they are making something more advanced.

 

[Makabb]

I guess Daggerfall is one of the few games that tries to be a 'real rpg', Julian is a true dreamer.

 

[Makabb]

 

[PrettyDeadman]

 

[HoboForEternity]

the boomer scrolls.

but anyway i am not buying "AI DM will generate as much interesting story as scripted narrative" but if they are serious about this, i would love to be proven wrong.