KickStarter The Wayward Realms - upcoming Daggerfall-like RPG from original Elder Scrolls developers

[volklore]

Tbh I would be more afraid of the discord being flooded by skyrim modding people whose idea of good game design is patching tons of unrelated simulation systems on top of a game and calling it 'seamless integration'. The discord is stock full of pinned post related to crazy superfluous simulation systems, and very few related to actual RPG mechanics.

 

[Makabb]

Tbh I would be more afraid of the discord being flooded by skyrim modding people whose idea of good game design is patching tons of unrelated simulation systems on top of a game and calling it 'seamless integration'.

These old developers, they know better than to make a Skyrim clone

 

[YldriE]

Tbh I would be more afraid of the discord being flooded by skyrim modding people whose idea of good game design is patching tons of unrelated simulation systems on top of a game and calling it 'seamless integration'.

That explains it, Outward was probably made by Skyrim sim modders.

 

[Makabb]

Ted Discord quote !

We've been calling our system dynamic composition which is basically procedural generation done right. We definitely recognize the flaws in the system we created 25 years ago for Daggerfall but with a little wisdom and some technological advances, we shouldn't repeat the same mistakes … though we might make some new ones!"

One thing I find useful in thinking about dynamic composition in general, from NPCs to towns to dungeons, is to think in terms of "seeds" and "sub-seeds." For example, the seed may be an underground city type dungeon, which comes with certain architectural elements, texture sets, monster encounters, quests, etc and a possibility of certain "sub-seeds," like bandits hangout, vampire's crypt, basically any secondary use the structure also contains. That helps create a history around the site, from its origin as a town that was buried in a volcanic eruption to it later being discovered and inhabited by a forbidden cult forced to go literally underground by authorities.

Yes. I am calling it dynamic generation not procedurally generated. A lot will be hand created (as it was in Daggerfall) but the code will fill in the blanks for terrain, architecture, NPCs, quests, etc

"Dynamic" is our term, not "radiant," fwiw. It's not so binary between dynamic and fixed. Hard to explain without spoilers. I guess the plainest way to put it is there aren't any quests that won't be altered at least somewhat by things like the player's reputation with the quest giver, world and local situations, etc

They got this one right

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Every single devs that sell proc gen or the likes always try to hype their system as THE proc gen by saying that lot of their world is combination of hand crafted consents and algorithm.

In the end of the day you still have large world with mostly endless fetch quests from board NPC quest givers.

 

[Makabb]

Every single devs that sell proc gen or the likes always try to hype their system as THE proc gen by saying that lot of their world is combination of hand crafted consents and algorithm.

In the end of the day you still have large world with mostly endless fetch quests from board NPC quest givers.

Maybe indie devs, but these are not indie devs.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Ted Discord quote !

We've been calling our system dynamic composition which is basically procedural generation done right. We definitely recognize the flaws in the system we created 25 years ago for Daggerfall but with a little wisdom and some technological advances, we shouldn't repeat the same mistakes … though we might make some new ones!"

One thing I find useful in thinking about dynamic composition in general, from NPCs to towns to dungeons, is to think in terms of "seeds" and "sub-seeds." For example, the seed may be an underground city type dungeon, which comes with certain architectural elements, texture sets, monster encounters, quests, etc and a possibility of certain "sub-seeds," like bandits hangout, vampire's crypt, basically any secondary use the structure also contains. That helps create a history around the site, from its origin as a town that was buried in a volcanic eruption to it later being discovered and inhabited by a forbidden cult forced to go literally underground by authorities.

Yes. I am calling it dynamic generation not procedurally generated. A lot will be hand created (as it was in Daggerfall) but the code will fill in the blanks for terrain, architecture, NPCs, quests, etc

"Dynamic" is our term, not "radiant," fwiw. It's not so binary between dynamic and fixed. Hard to explain without spoilers. I guess the plainest way to put it is there aren't any quests that won't be altered at least somewhat by things like the player's reputation with the quest giver, world and local situations, etc

They got this one right

Slurp slurp. Faggot.

 

[Magitex]

Some interesting tidbits from the interviews from their brainstorming
- the game plays around you, rather than you around it
- procedural storytelling is a realistic thing, the game will tell the story around your actions rather than being a predefined story like in a typical game.
- they want to have best of both worlds, procedural content together with hand crafted content
- npcs will lead their own lives and do their own things
- drive the story to what the player is doing (if you arrive in one place it will start one plotline, if you arrive at different place and do different thing it will start different plotline)
- physics ( destroy pillars, pick up stones, wood, throw them at enemies, enemies might die from collapsing stuff)
- the world will continue after you die, your character will be added to the current worlds legend and you might start a new character with the current world where you will learn about your old character or even possibly meet old comrades or descendants of your old character (possibility of having a family?)
- Julian says to make a serious game you need to code in c++, he likes to be challenged and considers this a very serious and ambitious challenge to accomplish
- Julian wants to have real substance and depth to it, add persistence where the game learns, put in learning algorithms and neural network, where the game adapts to how you act - 'It can be done'

Welp, if they can achieve even half of that, it will be groundbreaking stuff.

This sounds like my dream game basically, problem is, it also sounds like vaporware.
What would be groundbreaking is adding depth to all of those systems and having them work in unison, because there are very few games capable of doing so.

Normally when procedural or dynamic is thrown around in modern context, you are looking at some very barebones systems that are one dimensional; a lot of developers using these techniques implement them and then never provide enough context or depth to do more than just shit out liquid randomness and it always angers me to see it used in such a mindless fashion over and over again. Like they couldn't add more depth to the 'radiant' quests in Skyrim - it's a complete after thought. Just collect x, for no purpose. Throwing in a quest generator that does not care about the state of the game world is just a waste of the players time.

This is a major red flag. Mark my words.
The reason is not that C++ is unfit - but if you're highlighting the importance of such a basic thing as the programming language, the likelihood that you will actually incorporate frameworks necessary to push out a modern project is slimming down real fast.

It's a major red flag for game development I agree, it's not '96 any more. To add to that, you don't need C++ for anything specifically, I can only attribute this to elitism. You could code the entire thing in java if you wanted to. The whole thing smells of idealism, particularly when one casually mentions machine learning - it is not a thing for games and remains firmly in the realm of research and actual science - I suspect attempting to apply neural networks to your game is a waste of resources better spent on the game itself rather than chasing what is basically a fantasy.

Engine wise, UE4/Unity/anything that already exists would be a rational choice for the project; if the developers of the Daggerfall remake are on board, using that as a base would be a tangible start. It's not like you can't modify UE4 and other engines to fit your purposes. I mean sure, make your own engine - just that I don't know if I will actually live long enough to see the game, let alone a complete version of it. It strikes me as an unnecessary risk to an already shaky foundation and you're already looking at a studio not managing it's resources properly.

Still, it sounds a lot more interesting than another Elderscrolls action RPG, it's the direction I wished the series would have gone rather than linear content. It actually sounds a lot like what developers were trying to achieve with Ultima Online in 1997.

 

[Makabb]

You could code the entire thing in java if you wanted to

Java is good for websites and not games

 

[Magitex]

Java is good for websites and not games

Java, not javascript. Minecraft does more these days than Daggerfall ever could.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Java - just that it barely matters what modern language you use to build your game and being pedantic about the programming/platform language you are using is not going to amount to anything for game development.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Infinitron can you please tag this trainwreck with 'vaporware'

 

[DeepOcean]

It's a major red flag for game development I agree, it's not '96 any more. To add to that, you don't need C++ for anything specifically, I can only attribute this to elitism. You could code the entire thing in java if you wanted to. The whole thing smells of idealism, particularly when one casually mentions machine learning - it is not a thing for games and remains firmly in the realm of research and actual science - I suspect attempting to apply neural networks to your game is a waste of resources better spent on the game itself rather than chasing what is basically a fantasy.

While I agree we should be skeptical of retired game developers talking of machine learning, I disagree with this, there are many projects of machine learning being applied to games and I think procedural generation software would greatly benefit from that, we will have procedural generation AIs capable of completely simulating complex environments with complex rules. I just find it hard to believe that retired game developers actually are tech savvy enough with modern AI programming and the way they talk non nonchalantly about it indeed sounds like this is a pie in the sky project,a machine learning implementation for that purpose requires experienced AI programmers what I doubt they have access to .

 

[Magitex]

While I agree we should be skeptical of retired game developers talking of machine learning, I disagree with this, there are many projects of machine learning being applied to games and I think procedural generation software would greatly benefit from that, we will have procedural generation AIs capable of completely simulating complex environments with complex rules. I just find it hard to believe that retired game developers actually are tech savvy enough with modern AI programming and the way they talk non nonchalantly about it indeed sounds like this is a pie in the sky project,a machine learning implementation for that purpose requires top AI programmers what I doubt they have access to .

Do you have any projects in mind when you mention machine learning being applied and not just a trained neural network?

I've yet to see anything resembling a real-time learning AI (in any sense of the word). If he is just referring to using a trained neural network for AI responses, that I can understand. Just that I don't see it adapting - it will be just as dull as a scripted AI guaranteed.
Just what kind of learning can be applied here? He mentions "where the game adapts to how you act" so I assume he is referring to the NPCs and faction AI and not history or world generation, but who knows.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

While I agree we should be skeptical of retired game developers talking of machine learning, I disagree with this, there are many projects of machine learning being applied to games and I think procedural generation software would greatly benefit from that, we will have procedural generation AIs capable of completely simulating complex environments with complex rules. I just find it hard to believe that retired game developers actually are tech savvy enough with modern AI programming and the way they talk non nonchalantly about it indeed sounds like this is a pie in the sky project,a machine learning implementation for that purpose requires top AI programmers what I doubt they have access to .

Do you have any projects in mind when you mention machine learning being applied and not just a trained neural network?

I've yet to see anything resembling a real-time learning AI (in any sense of the word). If he is just referring to using a trained neural network for AI responses, that I can understand. Just that I don't see it adapting - it will be just as dull as a scripted AI guaranteed.
Just what kind of learning can be applied here? He mentions "where the game adapts to how you act" so I assume he is referring to the NPCs and faction AI and not history or world generation, but who knows.

Learning goes in, AI comes out. You can't explain that!

 

[Makabb]

While I agree we should be skeptical of retired game developers

Julian is not a retired developer, his day job is programming for software companies.

Minecraft does more these days than Daggerfall ever could

Wow no shit?! a modern day game does more than a 25 years old game???? CALL IN THE FCKING ACADEMY, GIVE THIS MAN A NOBEL PRIZE, WE GOT A GENIUS OVER HERE!!!!!

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Julian is not a retired developer, his day job is programming for software companies.

Programming what? If he's not in AI, he's not familiar with the subject.

Also, a day job programmer who thinks writing an engine "in C++" is "challenging". Uh... yeah. Totally a programmer, this guy.

 

[Makabb]

Also, a day job programmer who thinks writing an engine "in C++" is "challenging". Uh... yeah. Totally a programmer, this guy.

He said that challenging is creating a game that no one has ever done before - with AI learning algorithms and neural network, and NOT 'writing in c++'.

Please don't lie next time or learn to read, thank you kindly.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Also, a day job programmer who thinks writing an engine "in C++" is "challenging". Uh... yeah. Totally a programmer, this guy.

He said that challenging is creating a game that no one has ever done before - with AI learning algorithms and neural network, and NOT 'writing in c++'.

Please don't lie next time or learn to read, thank you kindly.

Pretty sure Bester was pointing out that it's difficult to write a game engine. Because it is.
Someone who starts making a game by 'making an engine' is never going to actually make a game at all.

 

[Makabb]

Pretty sure Bester was pointing out that it's difficult to write a game engine.

No he did not, please learn to read also.

Someone who starts making a game by 'making an engine' is never going to actually make a game at all

wtf is this shit? all the games in 90's and 90% of games in 00's had custom game engines.

Games with custom game engines are the best ones, because the developers have complete control over their production as opposed to current 'unity' or 'unreal engine' abortions which forever remain in early access.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Also, a day job programmer who thinks writing an engine "in C++" is "challenging". Uh... yeah. Totally a programmer, this guy.

He said that challenging is creating a game that no one has ever done before - with AI learning algorithms and neural network, and NOT 'writing in c++'.

Please don't lie next time or learn to read, thank you kindly.

Slurp slurp. First of all, you're a boot licking faggot. And second, you did not even understand what your senpai said. What a sad picture.

it's difficult to write a game engine. Because it is.

Fake news. Try it, then talk.

 

[Makabb]

Slurp slurp. First of all, you're a boot licking faggot. And second, you did not even understand what your senpai said. What a sad picture.

double dipping now

 

[Magitex]

Wow no shit?! a modern day game does more than a 25 years old game???? CALL IN THE FCKING ACADEMY, GIVE THIS MAN A NOBEL PRIZE, WE GOT A GENIUS OVER HERE!!!!!

Yeah, well I had to state the obvious because you decided that Java was not capable for creating games, which is not the case. Don't like the example?

 

[Makabb]

Wow no shit?! a modern day game does more than a 25 years old game???? CALL IN THE FCKING ACADEMY, GIVE THIS MAN A NOBEL PRIZE, WE GOT A GENIUS OVER HERE!!!!!

Yeah, well I had to state the obvious because you decided that Java was not capable for creating games, which is not the case. Don't like the example?

Minecraft is the only succesfull java game because of Notch who was a good programmer, but the point still remains that java is bad for games and the proof is that no one else created a criticaly acclaimed gamve in java, one unique thing does not make a standard.

 

[Magitex]

Wow no shit?! a modern day game does more than a 25 years old game???? CALL IN THE FCKING ACADEMY, GIVE THIS MAN A NOBEL PRIZE, WE GOT A GENIUS OVER HERE!!!!!

Yeah, well I had to state the obvious because you decided that Java was not capable for creating games, which is not the case. Don't like the example?

Minecraft is the only succesfull java game because of Notch who was a good programmer, but the point still remains that java is bad for games and the proof is that no one else created a criticaly acclaimed gamve in java, one unique thing does not make a standard.

Notch is just a programmer like any other, not a super hero of java justice. I've yet to hear any actual reason why Java is not capable for game development - this has nothing to do with Java being the standard or its popularity. There are other reasons not to use Java as your platform for games (like the dependency requirements, or the GC being a pain in the ass), but Java not being popular with game publishers is not one of them.

 

[Makabb]

I've yet to hear any actual reason why Java is not capable for game development

-DirectX doesn't have Java support, most game developers don't want to compromise on their 3D engine, Notch didn't care about graphics so he made it in Java because that's what he was good at apparently.
- there are advantages in getting "close to the metal" in C++ or assembly language, which you cannot do in Java
- Java has a garbage collected, managed runtime. 99% of the time this is a huge advantage, it certainly makes coding easier and less error-prone and is one of the big reasons why Java is so popular. However it does cause an occasional latency issue for games as garbage collection cycles can cause noticeable pauses. This is getting to be less of an issue with the newer low-latency JVMs, but is still an issue for graphically intensive games where maintaining high FPS is critical
- Lack of 3rd party libraries