Ultima The Ultima Underworld I & II Thread

[Deuce Traveler]

I knocked out another hour of Ultima Underworld, this time clearing out some dangerous monsters in the north part of level 4. Here's the funny thing. I go in and I see one tough monster followed by another. I back up, swing my sword while focusing on one until he's dead, then take out the other. I think I'm done then run right into three more. I fight five of these deadly creatures and prevail. And what was my reward? Chain leggings and a lantern with oil.

Now for the funny part I mentioned. I was ecstatic to find these. Here is my level 7 character excited over finding a lantern and oil flasks because he was tired of his shitty torches and candles. I don't know another game where picking up a better light source at character level 7 is cause for cheer, except maybe Angband and other rogue-likes when you find the Phial of Galadrial. But those games ranged from character levels 1-50, while this one goes from 1 through 16. This kind of progression plays out in a similar manner to Ultima Underworld 1 and I think it is a strong point to the game, especially when compared to most RPGs, where you start finding items with small, magical stat bonuses almost immediately.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I'm also plodding about in the Britannian sewers... again. Some XP values I've discovered on my journeys (give or take 1 or 2 XP)

Flesh Slugs, Bats, Rotworms, Tan Rats = 1-2 XP
Acid Slugs = 3 XP
Bloodworms = 6 XP
Mongbats = 8 XP
Grey Rats = 9 XP
Lurkers = 15 XP
Headless = 20 XP
Dread Spider = 20 XP
Ghosts = 25 XP
Gazers = 35 XP
Reapers = 60 XP

One early treasure of note is on the bottom level of the Britannian Sewers. Behind the waterfall is a Dread Spider, and in its lair is an emerald. This is an Emerald of Restore Mana with 2-4 charges, can't remember the exact number.

You can reach as high as Level 9 in the Britannian Sewers before entering the Prison Tower. I got 947 XP before exhausting all known options of gaining XP. But then again, I haven't spoken to anyone in Castle British except Nystul, Geoffrey and Dupre, so there may be some XP involved there.

Walking around in the Shrine of Spirituality is worth about 20 XP. If you can't find any dream plants to reach there, there's a secret door near the southernmost stairs on Level 4.

EDIT: Forgot Nystul's 'guinea pigs' in his labs. Maximum attainable XP before entering the gem is 951. With that said, there is something odd here. On level 4 there is a Grey Rat, the one that one-shotted Spoony and is guarding lots of cheese? That is some extra powerful rat. A standard Grey Rat yielded only 2 XP, yet this rat in particular yields the whopping 9 XP. I think I've found the elusive 'Jerry the Rat'.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

For the last 24 hours I pushed to see how far I could get in Ultima Underworld 2 and hit a brick wall with Dorstag. I know there are some alternate ways to get the gem from him, but before I explore more of this Strongest Survive world I wanted to report some stats.

I have a Strength of 30, Attack of 30, Sword skill of 30 and a Longsword of Accuracy. I'm not big on magic, but I had enough points to cast a spell that boosted my defense. I am level 14. Despite all this I did not hit Dorstag once. The man is a friggin' killing machine, but I did survive long enough to swing at him more than a dozen times with no result. I'm going to take some time to figure out the level, but I don't think I'm going to finish this game by the weekend as I had planned for myself.

 

[octavius]

Try to find out how Dorstag got that scar...
It may also be possible to goad the female top dog into fighting him. If I ever play UU2 again I think that's something I will have to try. I don't know if it's really possible, though.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

If that fails, try the 'Smite Foe' spell. If it bleeds, it'll kill it.

My adventures have been put temporarily on hold since I had to upgrade my computer (motherboard died) and switched over to Win7 along the way, but one bit of news is that Sceptic was right - you won't get very far without talking to Lady Miranda. The worlds beyond the first one won't be accessible until you talk to her at least once. Now to see if I can ignore her completely after this...

 

[Sceptic]

one bit of news is that Sceptic was right - you won't get very far without talking to Lady Miranda. The worlds beyond the first one won't be accessible until you talk to her at least once. Now to see if I can ignore her completely after this...

Interesting, I didn't know it would block you THAT early. I am looking forward to seeing the results of future ignores - I never tried to properly map the script dependencies in the game, and the ones I know about (like the Listener and opening Talorus) I know because I got stuck there. Carry on

For the last 24 hours I pushed to see how far I could get in Ultima Underworld 2 and hit a brick wall with Dorstag. I know there are some alternate ways to get the gem from him, but before I explore more of this Strongest Survive world I wanted to report some stats.

As you yourself know there ARE many ways to finish the Pits. Not all of them involve combat. Talk to everyone, try to make some friends, try to learn what you can from them. Explore the lower levels too. If all else fails you can get the gem in more... creative ways.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Finished Ultima Underworld 2. As you could probably tell by the way my posts tapered off, I wasn't as into this one as I was the last.

Things I really liked:
- Seeing all my friends from Britannia once again.
- The Guardian seemed like a true threat in this game, and I liked how he messed with the people in the castle psychologically.
- Some levels were truly inspired, like the Ice Caverns and the alien world.
- Some nice nods to other games, such as Wing Commander and Akalebeth.

Things I didn't like:
- That gateway to worlds was sometimes annoyingly difficult when it came to lining up the correct world and walking into it.
- Some nostalgic touches should have been better thought out, like the Q-bert part of the game. Pac-man was fun in UU1 since you weren't really playing Pac-Man. Q-Bert from a 1st person perspective with touchy jump controls is not fun, especially since I didn't know what the hell was going on at first and ended up with a multi-colored pyramid that I needed to use multiple fly spells to correct.
- There was a lot more platform jumping in this game. I had traumatic flashbacks of Ultima 8. Good thing I had fly, but my low casting skill meant I had to save scum.
- Some of the logic of the game didn't make sense. If I was doing all the work, why wouldn't folks lend me better gear? If Iolo and Dupre were there, why didn't they join me as they didn't seem busy. Ultima Underworld 1 had more internally consistent logic.
- The last world just seemed like a pain in arse when it came to getting around. After awhile I just felt drained playing the game. I actually put the game down for nearly a week, as I felt the game got worse the further I went.

Interesting Tidbit:
- I think my low intelligence score made it so I couldn't get mana and casting over 25.

Not sure if I'll tackle Arx Fatalis or System Shock next. I hope I like them better than I did the second half of UU2.

 

[Gord]

- Some of the logic of the game didn't make sense. If I was doing all the work, why wouldn't folks lend me better gear? If Iolo and Dupre were there, why didn't they join me as they didn't seem busy. Ultima Underworld 1 had more internally consistent logic.

It's clear why they did it from a gameplay perspective (or maybe also technical in case of companions), but I agree that they could have come up with a better explanation.
Even if it's just a lazy "It's MAGIC!".
E.g. The armory could be sealed with a powerful lock-spell and due to the guardians spell they can't remove the lock-spell for the time being.
And Iolo and Dupre could be busy with guarding the castle against monsters the guardian keeps teleporting in, or some such stuff.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Origin were pretty good with covering up techninal limitations with some bizarre-o explanations. The core Ultimas have a party of adventurers, while the Ultima Underworlds are solo adventures. They had to come up with an explanation as to why Iolo, Dupre, Julia og Geoffrey wouldn't accompany you this time round. The reason? They didn't come up with one. The game logic in this game isn't just lacking at times, it's ridiculous. Like where are the towers of Castle British? How come the inhabitants of the castle haven't suffocated due to lack of oxygen?

This, and so many other things, are what make Ultima Underworld 2 the inferior game of the two. Technologically superior, yes, but inferior in every other way. I wrote a couple of long reviews of the Underworld games recently, I'm thinking about revising the text before posting them here.

Deuce Traveler: I agree with you completely that the Etheral Void is a major downpoint in UUW2. Whatever appeal it may have as a world concept is lost in execution. As to why your Casting and Mana skills are capped at 25, it's because you chose a Fighter. Which skills can be trained to 25 and which skills to 30 is based on which class you picked during character creation. Why do you think I picked Druid? I like your choice of skills, not one skillpoint gone to waste. One question though, was Lore capped at 15, or didn't you have enough skillpoints to train it higher?

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Lore was not capped at 15. I just didn't explore every nook and cranny or do every side quest that would have allowed me enough skill points to raise anything higher. Mora, I think her name was, was also a let down. I beat her in her own fortress along with six of her guards. What makes her think she can take me later with two guards?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Mors Gotha. In the first fight I just nabbed the book, ran downstairs and "initiated self-destruct", then ran back upstairs and left.

For the second fight, a scroll of "Smite Foe" did the trick.

I'm noticing your XP level, and either the game is capped at around that amount, or it's really tricky to find enough XP to gain Level 16. I've never done that in UUW2, so it's something to keep an eye on.

 

[octavius]

I'm noticing your XP level, and either the game is capped at around that amount, or it's really tricky to find enough XP to gain Level 16. I've never done that in UUW2, so it's something to keep an eye on.

My Druid ended up with 12826 XP and lvl 15.
I didn't explore every nook and cranny, though. Didn't fight the Fire Elementals in the Tomb, for example.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

That is a LOT of XP, and it's STILL not enough to gain Lvl 16?

I'm starting to doubt that it's even possible to gain that level. I'll look into it later.

 

[WarHamster]

If memory serves, you can't reach higher than lvl 15 (which you reach at 6400 XP or something) in either Ultima Underworld.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Level 16 is gained in the first Ultima Underworld at 9600 XP, the level requirements are different in the second game.

 

[Fowyr]

System Shock next.

This, without any doubt!

 

[Gord]

Does anyone know the difference between a Toughness and Protection enchantment on armor?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Toughness makes the item itself more resistant to damage, while Protection reduces the damage you take from an attack.

 

[Gord]

Toughness makes the item itself more resistant to damage, while Protection reduces the damage you take from an attack.

So toughness would only increase the amount of damage an item can take before it gets destroyed, but not reduce the damage the player takes from monster attacks?

Edit: I only ask because of stuff like that post from one old Codex LP:

Tests I run shows that moderately strong enemies cannot harm the Avatar in a full suit of leather armour with high Toughness enchantment.

 

[magospietato]

Origin were pretty good with covering up techninal limitations with some bizarre-o explanations. The core Ultimas have a party of adventurers, while the Ultima Underworlds are solo adventures. They had to come up with an explanation as to why Iolo, Dupre, Julia og Geoffrey wouldn't accompany you this time round. The reason? They didn't come up with one. The game logic in this game isn't just lacking at times, it's ridiculous. Like where are the towers of Castle British? How come the inhabitants of the castle haven't suffocated due to lack of oxygen?

This, and so many other things, are what make Ultima Underworld 2 the inferior game of the two. Technologically superior, yes, but inferior in every other way. I wrote a couple of long reviews of the Underworld games recently, I'm thinking about revising the text before posting them here.

I'm pretty sure Austin Grossman acknowledged that Ultima Underworld 2 was rushed to market, (see here) which I think explains the criticisms. I'm a whore for worldbuilding though, so the multiple worlds thing made UWII my favourite of the two in spite of the nonsensical main story arc.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I had to dig to find the correct answer, but the true answer is that BOTH values affect the protection of an item of armour.

An item starts out by reducing the damage you receive. Leather items take off 2 points of damage, chain items 4 points and plate items 6. BUT, here's the thing I didn't know earlier, is that the state of the item in question also affects how much damage is reduced by the armour. The numbers above assume that the piece of armour is in 'excellent' condition, but the protection offered will lower the more damaged the armour is. A servicable chainshirt, for example, reduces damage by 61-80% of its maximum possible protection, which could be 4 points but most likely will only be 3 points. This should give a numerical reason why one should strive to have one's armour in tip-top shape.

Still, I think it is better to have an item with a "Protection" enchantment rather than a "Toughness" enchantment, because the damage reduction will help keep you alive instead of having a standard chainshirt that takes much longer to break.

What I'm wondering now is how much damage is reduced with the "Protection" enchantment - especially since there are 8 levels of it. Surely it can't be 1 point per level? Then a Plate Mail of Unsurpassed Toughness would reduce 14 points of damage, and that can be increased further with the (Vas/Bet) In Sanct spells, for a maximum possible of 19 points of damage reduced!

 

[someone else]

Toughness makes the item itself more resistant to damage, while Protection reduces the damage you take from an attack.

Where did you get the info?
My tests in my lp shows that "toughness" is the armor equivalent of "damage" enchantment in weapons. It is the enchantment that reduces damage, without enchantment I get damage, with enchantment I don't get damaged. The armor quality is the same. Which is why I end up wearing only leather armor with toughness enchantment.
Not sure about protection, it might be the armor equivalent of "accuracy" in weapons. I suppose you can test by counting the difference in the number of times you get hit.

Max level is 15, but you can get extra skill points even after that. Easiest way is to kill your own summoned daemons. But they leave blood and bones after they die and there is a limit on the number of items in a level before things start disappearing. I remove them the blood with fireballs or the axe of firery Doom then toss them in water.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

My source is the UUW2 cluebook, but I'll admit that it should not be considered the final word. For that the code itself would have to be consulted. To be honest I'm not so sure anymore, but the way I explained it sounds like the obvious reason. I'll happily admit that I could be wrong.

I had considered starting summoning deamons to try to gain more XP, but currently I'm trying to get an idea of which particular actions in UUW2 yield XP. For example you get only about 22 XP for butchering all the Goblins in the Prison Tower by hand, but freeing Garg earns you 15 XP regardless of whether the Goblins are alive or not.

 

[Gord]

Hm, so according to UC's explanation, an full suit of leather armor enchanted with Toughness wouldn't give a higher damage reduction, if the condition of the armor is the same, it would only take longer to wittle it down, thus the armor would keep its protection value longer.
According to SE however, toughness would reduce damage, but protection would make you harder to hit.

In principle it should be possible to run some test with a few full suits of armor with and without enchantments...

 

[someone else]

My source is the UUW2 cluebook, but I'll admit that it should not be considered the final word. For that the code itself would have to be consulted. To be honest I'm not so sure anymore, but the way I explained it sounds like the obvious reason. I'll happily admit that I could be wrong.

I have both UW clue books and read them numerous times, there is no mention the exact effect.

Weapons are enchanted for either accuracy or damage. Armor is enchanted for either protection or armor...