Ultima The Ultima Series Discussion Thread

[aweigh]

what would be the best version of ultima 5 to play?

 

[Cael]

what would be the best version of ultima 5 to play?

The original 4 x 3 1/2" floppy disc version.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Just patch the DOS version so you can play with music and you're good, that's the definitive version of the game.

U4 is a journey on how to be a proper hero, Knights of the Round Table style. Be brave in the face of foes, honourably let non-Evil foes retreat, show kindness to beggar, be truthful and humble in your actions. It is not about killing things and taking their stuff. That was the whole point to the game. Garriott wanted to make a game that is completely unlike other RPGs in existence because he got feedback from the proto-sjws of the time that there was too much violence in games.
U4 is basically a puzzle game with RPG elements.

You can't just say that Ultima IV is a puzzle game with RPG elements. The game's basically simulating a DM judging your actions and throwing you under the bus for playing out of character. The virtue system also secretly represented personality traits back when most RPGs cared only about combat-related attributes. Controversial as it may be, I think Ultima IV was more of a role-playing game than many traditional "genocide simulators". Which doesn't necessarily make it a better or more engaging game, though.

 

[Cael]

The virtue system also secretly represented personality traits back when most RPGs cared only about combat-related attributes. Controversial as it may be, I think Ultima IV was more of a role-playing game than many traditional "genocide simulators". Which doesn't necessarily make it a better or more engaging game, though.

Hilariously, that is something that, 40 years later, no other system had done properly.

 

[curds]

I would recommend the Goldbox games if you haven't played them

Halfway (at a rough guess) through Pool of Radiance atm. I'm at Valhingen Graveyard. Was enjoying it immensely up until this point, but I'm starting to find the combat a little samey. Taking a little break so I don't burn out but will definitely return to Phlan soon enough.

U4 is not a storyfag game (although it has a great plot), its an immershunfag one. The game forces the player to act like a hero thinking about morality before every action instead of being a murderhobo, to learn the basics at spellcasting and mixing reagents before even attempting to cast a single spell, to remember keywords when talking with NPCs, and so on. Its RPG systems are extremely shallow and combat itself is pretty bad, we can all agree, but this is no adventure game either. This is no Ultima VII (now that's a shallow adventure game).

I guess you could say it is a role-playing game in a very literal sense - a game about playing a role. I can appreciate and enjoy that but really at the end of the day I personally need good combat/RPG system to really get sucked in to a game.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

One of my favorite and almost completely unknown youtubers has uploaded a longish review of Ultima 1. He has a really strange off-kilter humor. I doubt most Codexers could get past him talking to a plushy seal for most of his videos, but hey, if anyone is interested anyway:



I find his analyses actually pretty interesting and he looks at a lot of old games, from Kings Quest series to Prince of Persia. I think I discovered him a couple of years ago while looking for videos on Wizardry.

 

[ryz]

So I'm currently replaying the Ultima series and I've just imported my U4 character to U5. I've been reading up on game mechanics and NO ONE seems to discuss the morality system in detail. From what I could gather it seems there's only "karma" which increases/decreases based on some actions. Does U5 really only have the karma meter? No individual tracking of virtues?

 

[Cael]

So I'm currently replaying the Ultima series and I've just imported my U4 character to U5. I've been reading up on game mechanics and NO ONE seems to discuss the morality system in detail. From what I could gather it seems there's only "karma" which increases/decreases based on some actions. Does U5 really only have the karma meter? No individual tracking of virtues?

Yes. U5 only has one generic meter.

Enjoy it. It is the last game with one of those.

 

[ryz]

So I'm currently replaying the Ultima series and I've just imported my U4 character to U5. I've been reading up on game mechanics and NO ONE seems to discuss the morality system in detail. From what I could gather it seems there's only "karma" which increases/decreases based on some actions. Does U5 really only have the karma meter? No individual tracking of virtues?

Yes. U5 only has one generic meter.

Enjoy it. It is the last game with one of those.

Thanks, I will. I must admit though that it feels like a slight , I wish Garriott would've taken the in theory brilliant but in practicality flawed multiple moral system of U4 and tweaked it instead of saying "nah". I get that you're already the avatar and all that but them straight up not existing anymore technically is a pity. Anyway, karma kinda works and was a nice way for Garriott to weasel himself out of his own creation. Guess I'm 31 years too late to complain about that.

 

[Infinitron]

Actually that's not true, U6 also has karma. You get free heals from healers if it's high, and can't meditate at shrines if it's low.

 

[Tweed]

Ultima isn't about "racism is bad" or "religion is bad". It is about "don't believe the hype of people trying to deceive you to rule over you". From Ultima 5 onwards, the theme has been about how something that looks Good on the surface is actually a whole lot of BAD when you delve into it a bit more.

Unless of course you're Lord British, then you have no flaws except for being rather oblivious to the things going on in your own kingdom. It's ok though because anyone who questions you or the state religion always end very badly for some reason.

 

[Grauken]

Ultima isn't about "racism is bad" or "religion is bad". It is about "don't believe the hype of people trying to deceive you to rule over you". From Ultima 5 onwards, the theme has been about how something that looks Good on the surface is actually a whole lot of BAD when you delve into it a bit more.

Unless of course you're Lord British, then you have no flaws except for being rather oblivious to the things going on in your own kingdom. It's ok though because anyone who questions you or the state religion always end very badly for some reason.

Hot take, the in-game Lord British is still a more sane person than the out-game Richard Garriott, even if both seem to suffer from the occasional bouts of dementia

 

[Bruma Hobo]

One of my favorite and almost completely unknown youtubers has uploaded a longish review of Ultima 1. He has a really strange off-kilter humor. I doubt most Codexers could get past him talking to a plushy seal for most of his videos, but hey, if anyone is interested anyway:



I find his analyses actually pretty interesting and he looks at a lot of old games, from Kings Quest series to Prince of Persia. I think I discovered him a couple of years ago while looking for videos on Wizardry.

The first half of this video was a waste of time, but then he did a great job explaining the actual appeal of the Ultima gameplay, instead of the usual focus on innovation, plots, and the good old "they were like the original open-world RPGs, bro, good for their times".

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS U5 TOTALLY HAS A REP SYSTEM

YOU CANT GET SHRINE MANTRAS FROM NPCS IF YOU ACT LIKE AN ASS HOLDER

 

[Casual Hero]

One of my favorite and almost completely unknown youtubers has uploaded a longish review of Ultima 1. He has a really strange off-kilter humor. I doubt most Codexers could get past him talking to a plushy seal for most of his videos, but hey, if anyone is interested anyway:



I find his analyses actually pretty interesting and he looks at a lot of old games, from Kings Quest series to Prince of Persia. I think I discovered him a couple of years ago while looking for videos on Wizardry.

This dude has great videos. I also discovered him via Wizardry. I highly recommend those vidyas.

 

[TigerKnee]

If you want Ultima IV / V with good gameplay in exchange for the experimental morality bits, try The Magic Candle (first one was the best)

 

[Bruma Hobo]

The Magic Candle despite superficial similarities doesn't scratch the Ultima itch at all in my opinion, but it definitely has better combat and character progression, it's a really underrated gem. Perhaps all it needed to become a more known classic (besides better sequels, of course) could be proper character creation options, that's a little theory I have.

I think games like Sword of the Samurai, Darklands and even Morrowind, despite looking completely different at first glance, are closer to the classic Ultima games than The Magic Candle. More similar tile-based games would be 2400 AD and to a lesser extent Wasteland.

 

[taxalot]

taxalot Relevant to your interests: http://ultimacodex.com/2018/07/spam-spam-spam-humbug-108-the-ultima-ix-redemption-autopsy/

So.

I finally took the time to listen to that podcast. It is the first time I hear people explicitingly mention me on the Internet. An exhilarating experience.

* WTF Dragon mentions him and I are "at odds". I do not consider myself at odds, with you, WTF. I just consider yourself.. odd. The fact that you make podcasts apologetic to Ultima IX is one thing, I too think it is a great game in many ways that failed however to reply to fans expectations. What is odd, however, is that you make a lengthy podcast about how Ultima Forever (it's the iOS F2P game) is "still missed", have been defending pay to win positions publicly, and have been basically Portalarium's media guy in exchange of "stuff" until they decided to screw you with your box too.

This is all very odd, that's all.

But you maintain a website I still visit weekly and do the efforts of a podcast that can be entertaining, so you're an okay guy. Just weird.
Speaking of the podcast

* The interviewee is Chlorthos. I have nothing but great things to say about Chlorthos. Besides me, he was the only doing work on Eriadain and was the first member of the team. The only actual other member of the game. He sent often midi music files that were of great quality and fit the tone of the game perfectly. Chlorthos, unlike any other, actually worked on the Alter U9/Eriadain project.
* He mentions Avatus a lot as the leader who decided the "split" and decided to form their own band working on Redemption. I remember well how this happened. It was just a few weeks later some guy decided he would be coding his own engine from scratch, then Avatus suggested we converted Ultima Online to single player. Avatus provided us a lot with snarky comments and made me an actual character of a retarded fanfiction he wrote. But he did not do any work. He did not produce anything. He did not contribute, in any fucking way, to the project.

It's that guy they all followed to make U9 Redemption

* Apparently, at some point, Avatus completely disappeared off the Internet. What a fucking surprise, and nothing was made but some world stuff and placeholder dialog. I am shocked that the man who contributed nothing and yet they all elected as leader would do such a thing and it would endanger Redemption.
Absolutely stunning twist.
Or maybe not.

* Chlorthos blames the failure of the project on "scope creep". Quite ironic, considering they all left my project because it was not too ambitious and I was thinking, that, you know, turning a MMO into a single player or coding a new engine from scratch to make a fucking Ultima game was a bit much for young adults still going to college and only having like one or two hours a day in their spare time. They kept asking for scope creep and I wouldn't give in, especially since I was the only one doing the actual game.

It failed because of scope creep ? No fucking way !

But the most hilarious bit comes later.

* At one point in the podcast, Chlorthos mentions how he is very proud of something he wrote on Ultima IX Redemption tied the whole thing together. He mentions the Guardian's origins as something he proudly wrote : "the bones of Zog are actually a former avatar from an ancient people that worshipped Pride instead of humility". I am glad that you find this story, great, Chlorthos. I do think it's great too. And you're even honest enough to say you had a little help to come up with it and write it. No kidding. I wrote that story. It was part of the Eriadain design document, which you had access to.

This is the thing the last alive member of the U9 Redemption is most proud of.

I guess we'll be "at odds" from now on

 

[Infinitron]

taxalot Oh, that's a well-timed reply. WTF has recently continued doing more of his Ultima IX fan podcasts:

https://ultimacodex.com/2019/12/spam-spam-spam-humbug-131-ultima-9-hate-it-love-it-its-your-call/
https://ultimacodex.com/2020/01/spam-spam-spam-humbug-132-ultima-9-an-epic-and-powerful-play/
https://ultimacodex.com/2020/01/spam-spam-spam-humbug-133-ultima-9-the-music-was-really-cool/

 

[taxalot]

Yeah. I listened to those.

I really do not know what to say. It is true the game was a technical achievement, and WTF is right when he says it predated a lot of gaming trends.

But they all fail to mention what was the actual game like, besides, you know, beyond its time.

You can be ahead of your time and shit. Ultima IX proved that.

edit : okay, I'm harsh. U9 was not THAT bad. But it was still the biggest disappointment of my gaming life.

 

[Bumvelcrow]

U9 was not THAT bad

Yes, it fucking was. With bells on.

 

[taxalot]

U9 was not THAT bad

Yes, it fucking was. With bells on.

I do not think so.

It was a very strange game. Bugs aside, it was great technically and the first non procedurally generated 3D open world of this kind I can remember.

It was also a more than decent Ocarina of Time clone. The game is structured exactly like a Zelda game. New town, new dungeon filled with puzzles, unlock new abilities. Once in a while, a plot development happens. Then, a final dungeon. Overall weakly structured and shallow story.
It would have been great as any title, except an Ultima. I replayed Ultima 7 recently, to completion. After redoing this game, it's no wonder fans had different expectations for Ultima IX. Ultima IX showed the finger to everything that made the greatest game in the series, great, to do its own thing. And this happened because poor management.

 

[Grauken]

I blame Garriott

 

[V_K]

the first non procedurally generated 3D open world of this kind

What kind would that be exactly?
Also, from what I remember it wasn't really open. There were no loading screens, but progression was extremely linear, with only a small portion of the world accessible at any given time.

 

[Bumvelcrow]

I do not think so.

It was the Underworld Ascendant of it's time. A rush job thrown together because they ran out of time, money and ideas. It was fucking dreadful as a stand alone game, let alone as a conclusion to a story begun with U7.