Ultima The Ultima Series Discussion Thread

[TigerKnee]

D:OS only allows 4 characters (and 2 summons). You can have 6 characters in The Black Gate and Serpent Isle.

Are there points in the game where you absolutely need 6 characters and not less?

 

[Keldryn]

D:OS only allows 4 characters (and 2 summons). You can have 6 characters in The Black Gate and Serpent Isle.

The Black Gate allowed you to have a total of 8 characters in the party, although some potential party members wouldn't join if you already had a group of a certain size (5 maybe?). Tseramed, for example and I think Katrina as well. You could still have them in an 8 character party; you just needed to add them first.

Serpent Isle reduced this to 6 though.

 

[V_K]

Is the D:OS tool-set so unwieldy that someone couldn't recreate U7 with proper combat?

D:OS only allows 4 characters (and 2 summons). You can have 6 characters in The Black Gate and Serpent Isle.

That's the least of the problems. It doesn't support water travel, flying and NPC schedules, all of which are necessary to U7 quests, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

We would miss out on the vintage inventory as well.

So no more rummaging through everyone's bags to find those blackrock pieces?

That's great, when do we start?

 

[Jaesun]

That's the least of the problems. It doesn't support water travel, flying and NPC schedules, all of which are necessary to U7 quests, if I'm not mistaken.

Agreed. However, when Swen finally unveils his UTIMATE RPG™ perhaps such things will finally be in such a game. Hopefully the combat will be just as good. Perhaps that will be the engine one could do a proper remake.

 

[V_K]

Agreed. However, when Swen finally unveils his UTIMATE RPG™ perhaps such things will finally be in such a game. Hopefully the combat will be just as good. Perhaps that will be the engine one could do a proper remake.

Actually, I'm trying to remember what was the last RPG that allowed for different modes of movement/travel, and I'm drawing a blank. Risen maybe? Avernum has boats, but as a remake of a remake it doesn't quite count.
Why did these mechanics suddenly disappear from RPGs?

 

[Neanderthal]

Hard work an nobody asked for it anymore, too busy cheering on streamlining an focusin on "core" mechanics o combat, conversation an collectin shit. Same reason why environmental interaction, NPC schedules an all other features got abandoned an are too difficult to implement now.

 

[TigerKnee]

Why did these mechanics suddenly disappear from RPGs?

In modern games, the world is either "to scale" now which generally means dropping the scale of the game world to a single country or such... or if they have to do long travel, they just do the cheap method of having you select choices from a menu.

So cheapness, basically

 

[AArmanFV]

Making some offtopic:

I completed Ultima V few days ago, the last to appear on the Apple II (I played I to V in that format). A lot of graphic improvements compared to IV and a better combat system (no more 4-directioned attacks). The gameplay is improved in combat and the economy, more active thanks to Blackthorn neoliberal reforms.

Bad Jokes aside, the game was almost perfect, but it wasn't so epic like the quest of the avatar, the dungeons were too easy and inferior in design, I don't liked the magic system based on the circles (bad combination with the leveling up method, but you can complete the game in level 6 without much problem, so whatever), neither that karma system that replaced the one based on the virtues, but I liked the world design, with the day and night implementation feels more authentic, but at some point is tedious, because affects the npc interaction (those who played will understand).

The game is superior to IV in gameplay, but it's not so memorable, at least follow the idea of the journey of self-discovering, the one of the things for why I became a "little fan" of the series.

There is more than that obviously, but I feel lazy. Finally, my personal ranking for now is U4≥U5>U3>U1>U2.

 

[Infinitron]

it wasn't so epic like the quest of the avatar, the dungeons were too easy

O_o

 

[CryptRat]

Same reason why environmental interaction, NPC schedules an all other features got abandoned an are too difficult to implement now.

Hey, Heroine's quest has very good environmental interaction and NPC schedules.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Actually, I'm trying to remember what was the last RPG that allowed for different modes of movement/travel, and I'm drawing a blank. Risen maybe? Avernum has boats, but as a remake of a remake it doesn't quite count.

Daggerfall (1996) had horses, so there's that at least.

(Yes, I'm also drawing a blank on this.)

 

[V_K]

Actually, I'm trying to remember what was the last RPG that allowed for different modes of movement/travel, and I'm drawing a blank. Risen maybe? Avernum has boats, but as a remake of a remake it doesn't quite count.

Daggerfall (1996) had horses, so there's that at least.

(Yes, I'm also drawing a blank on this.)

Well, if we're going into such ancient history, Wizards&Warriors had horses (was kinda funny how your party of seven mounted a single horse), rafts and ships. But horses are rather common in recent TES and TES-clones.
But I was even talking about simpler things, like Morrowind's levitation and waterwalking - they seem to have disappeared from games as well. If I'm not forgetting something obvious, the upcoming Underworld will be the first game in a decade to have levitation.

 

[:Flash:]

Agreed. However, when Swen finally unveils his UTIMATE RPG™ perhaps such things will finally be in such a game. Hopefully the combat will be just as good. Perhaps that will be the engine one could do a proper remake.

Actually, I'm trying to remember what was the last RPG that allowed for different modes of movement/travel, and I'm drawing a blank. Risen maybe? Avernum has boats, but as a remake of a remake it doesn't quite count.
Why did these mechanics suddenly disappear from RPGs?

Because of modern graphics.
Modern graphics increase cost and decrease abstraction, and both is deadly for fun mechanics.
The increased cost is obvious to everyone. There is a difference in cost between having a horse tile in Ultima and having to animate horses and riding.

The decrease in abstraction is what not many people realise.
Ultimately, computer games are an abstraction, normally of things you cannot do in real life. The problem is, the more realistic the graphic becomes, the closer it gets to real life, and the harder it gets to abstract away things that are not that simple to perform in reality. Take the ship travel in Ultima. Your entire party boards a ship and suddenly you have this fun mechanic where you can hoist the sails, and have to keep track of the wind (or influence it with magic). Now, in Ultima IX you suddenly have this realistic 3D graphics, and it is all not that fun any more. If ship travel were to be realistic, you would need to control an entire crew that does things on the ship, etc., you'd end up with a sailing simulator. Or you have this very bad ship mechanic that is in Ultima IX. And we're not even talking about scale here, because realistic ship travel would take awfully long.
Or take the mountain passes that become impassable during winter in Realms of Arkania. It's a fun mechanic, but it only works in abstraction. It would not be fun to walk and walk up a mountain pass in 3d only to get stuck in snow.

So the only abstractions that are left with modern graphics are the most simple ones: Push a button to walk, push another button to swing a sword or make magic happen.

 

[Infinitron]

Bring back the dual scale world, make abstraction great again

 

[Neanderthal]

Made a thread about it. Honestly though can't blame devs when its dumbfuck players cheerin on having less an less detail an features in their gameworlds, on the fucking Codex.

 

[octavius]

The decrease in abstraction is what not many people realise.

 

[BlackGoat]

Gonna bring back the dual scale bros. Working on it

 

[aweigh]

the need to animate complicated models and the need to hire voice-actors to act out a screenplay instead of simply creating a game script are basically the short-hand reasons to why X or Y or Z element from the genre has "disappeared".

i agree with Infinitron that abstraction needs to "make a comeback". The RPG genre in general does not benefit whatsoever from increased aesthetic iteration!

in fact increased aesthetic iteration is detrimental to the developers ability to sensibly integrate gameplaying depth to an RPG's mechanical systems.

of course striking this supposed balance between aesthetic design and abstraction, (in the specific context we're discussing here and specifically in terms of RPGs), has been the literal crux of RPG development since their inception.

 

[V_K]

Bring back the dual scale world, make abstraction great again

Come to think of it, Skyrim is dual-scale - the major cities are all separate levels.

Spoiler

 

[aweigh]

:Flash:

"not many people realise" is correct. there is very little academic study (if any at all) of game design and there is zero historical and philosophical study of game design.

the same thing is prevalent in film as well as many directors, such as werner Herzog, have many times criticized the way film schools teach their students. Werner has gone exactly as far as I just did by saying modern film school curriculums do not teach a single thing about how to make a film.

"not many people realise" is, i believe, the de facto answer to every single problem in modern games. this is why i get emotionally upset whenever a review or article or video utilizes the terms "classic" or "retro" when talking about a game / game design as this always happens with the connotation that since this was how it was done in the past it is outdated (i.e. useless).

the video game industry, unlike film or music industries, seems not to care about its history or the importance in a historical or philosophical approach to game design or the study of video games.

an example of how useless video game design schools are would be how a student of such could spend 2-4 years and learn how to program and learn how to utilize photoshop and but when asked to deconstruct a video game philosophically or asked to explain the importance of abstraction in the context we're talking about would not be able to give an answer on the level of an RPGCodex forum poster.

 

[:Flash:]

:Flash:

an example of how useless video game design schools are would be how a student of such could spend 2-4 years and learn how to program and learn how to utilize photoshop and but when asked to deconstruct a video game philosophically or asked to explain the importance of abstraction in the context we're talking about would not be able to give an answer on the level of an RPGCodex forum poster.

Perhaps I am hopelessly romantic, and I might be wrong with this, but I don't think these game design schools would do much good even if they taught the stuff you are talking about here. They are like these "creative writing" schools. Has any good author ever come out of those? And has any good game designer ever come out of a game design school?
The spark of creativity is a gift from God, and those who really have it, will teach themselves the necessary skills and knowledge.
Creative writing and game design schools are for getting the money from gullible people who "want to make games" or "want to write a book".

 

[V_K]

This article seems to be relevant to the direction the discussion is taking: http://www.brainygamer.com/the_brainy_gamer/2010/09/unplayable.html

One of my most satisfying moments as a teacher came two years ago when 15 students overcame their resistance and disorientation and embraced the original Fallout. I wrote about that experience, and since then I've continued to challenge my students with games that fall well outside their comfort zones: arcade classics (e.g. Defender); interactive fiction (e.g. Planetfall); and early dungeon-crawlers (e.g. Rogue).

But I've noticed a general downward trajectory forming over the last six years or so. Gradually my students have grown less and less capable of handling one particular assignment: Ultima IV. To be sure, they struggle with a game like Planetfall, but when they finally learn the game's syntax (and heed my advice to map their progress), it's mostly a question of puzzle-solving. Defenderknocks them down initially, but they soon apply the quick reflexes they've developed playing modern games, and they're fine.

Ultima IV is another story. Here's a sampling of posts from the forum I set up to facilitate out-of-class discussion of the game:

• I've been very confused throughout the entire experience. I've honestly sat here for hours trying to figure out what to do and it just isn't making much sense to me right now.
  
• When I start a game I like to do it all on my own, but it's been impossible to do so with Ultima. I've asked friends for help, looked up FAQs/walkthroughs, and even searched for Let's Play Ultima 4 on youtube and am still uncertain as to how to get further in this game.
  
• Yeah, I still have no idea what the main goal is. I suppose it's to basically find out what the purpose of the Ankh is. But I see no way of furthering that goal.
  
• I tried for awhile without any walkthroughs to get the full gamer experience sort thing and within the hour I gave up because of a combination of bad controls and a hard to get into story for me at least. It reminded me of a bad runescape.
  
• i dont quite understand the concept of the game. i believe my main confusion is the controls and how it displays what you have done and how you moved. im not used to rpg's and i dont like them to much. i hope to find out how to move forward,but so far no luck.
  
• How the hell do I get out of here after I die?

He's not teaching game design though, rather game studies seminars.

 

[CryptRat]

You guys are so right. Restraining to what you'll be able to modelize is such a bad idea for that kind of game, alienating anything creativity could bring. You need to use texts then just use texts, you're not making a plateformer.
I really hope both Dragons of the Rip and Dungeons Of Aledorn won't restrain interactions with environnement at all because of some self-imposed modelization criteria, otherwise the games won't be anything the likes of Dragon Wars/ROA, these games could propose a lot of different inventive situations and solutions to problems thanks to a minimalist presentation.

 

[Infinitron]

Concept Art from "The Ultima That Never Was"

Proclaiming that the artwork is from "a 3D Ultima project" that was in development back in 2002 and never released, artist Denis Loubet has uploaded three separate concept art pieces to his Facebook page featuring his interpretation of a mongbat, an orc, and a headless. I'm not sure if he's referring to Ultima Worlds Online: Origin, or if there was another single player title in the works around the same time that wound up being cancelled, but here are the summaries he includes with them:

Here is the classic Mongbat from the Ultima series. A flying monkey based loosely on the ones from The Wizard of Oz if I remember correctly. Golden haired and with a long tail, it terrorized the Britannian countryside with its fearsome teeth and claws.

I did this concept piece for a planned 3D Ultima project in 2002 as a freelancer.

Oddly, this guy looks kinda friendly. I probably shouldn't have made the eyes so big. Richard specified the white crest of hair, but I think the tail-vanes were my idea.

This was done in Painter 6, with a Wacom graphics tablet. I just used the pencil brush with a dark sepia color, and colored it on another layer with the Simple Water watercolor brush.

I was trying for a sunlight-tinted-red-as-it-passes-through-the-wing-membranes kind of thing, but I don't think it worked.

...

Here's two more from the Ultima that never was. We have the Headless, which is just a creepy idea from the get-go, and an ordinary orc.

I made the Headless hairy and primitive with no clue as to how it eats or detects its surroundings. That's just left mysterious. Stumpy legs, long torso, and ape-like arms make it dangerous, and the absence of a face makes it so alien it's unpredictable. Also note, it has a horrible tail. That has to be canon because I wouldn't have included it if I hadn't been instructed to.

The orc, unfortunately, is a little bland and generic. The only mildly unusual thing about him is the vaguely Roman leather armor he's wearing. That and his general state of cleanliness.

I have a habit of trying to do the most with the least. When drawing a knight, I'll avoid the enormous fantasy armor in favor of more realistic protection. I'll draw a fairly ordinary orc rather than indulge in horns and decorated tusks and axes as big as the character itself. I'll tell myself it doesn't need all that crazy stuff to be interesting. It's the character in the face that's important. It's the way the character carries itself. It's the impression and feeling that the character establishes that I'm after. So if my illustrations aren't wild or flamboyant, that's why.

Even keeping things real, I do get to focus on things l like or find fascinating. For instance, I worked hard on the way the hands support the headless, trying for that ape-like knuckledragging effect.

And the beefy torso of the orc came out very nice, as did the simple design of his leather skirt. I also enjoy the massive sturdy quality of his sword. Little successes like these are what keep me working.