Ultima The Ultima Series Discussion Thread

[Marquis de Lirium]

In a modern Ultima V-like, what additional sorts of stuff would be interesting in the overworld half of the dual-scale? Would you always know what's in every square as in U5? Or would there be stuff that you might not see til you land on it (and maybe "Search" it), like a hexcrawl sort of thing? Basically, same question as before. If you wanted to add onto the Ultima V overworld for a non-False-Prophet Ultima VI, what would you add, how would you expand the gameplay.

There were hidden objects on the world map of Ultima V already - the moonstones for example. One possible addition would be hidden locations - places that you hear rumors about and that you have to search for in order to enter.

Also, how large did you perceive the overworld to be? Did you think of it as each step was a many many miles squared representation of a landscape, or a miniature version of a landscape, where if there were ruins on it, you'd always be able to see it because you're basically stepping right on them and if you're walking on a hill tile you're climbing up a specific hill and not just walking in generally hilly terrain

I like to think of the map, on both town and world level, as a highly abstract representation of the actual environment. Only this way, the game world becomes a believable place in space and time. What I mean is, that when you enter a town and see the outline of, say, 3 houses and there are less than 10 people around, it doesn't mean the town is actually that small, but that the game restricts your view on locations and persons that are important to your quest (plus random noise). Likewise, the world map can only be interpreted as high level description of the characters' surroundings.

 

[Goblino]

Gotta say, I like your take on it. In a way it reinforces the canon made by Garriot where the history of the world is told in more broad strokes the further you go back. Ultima 1 is not only in the dark ages, but so is it's sole surviving narrative in our world, the video game ultima 1. Thus technical limitations become the canon.

 

[BlackGoat]

Exciting times

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/08/richard-garriotts-blood/

Would you like to own a “Lord British Blood Reliquary” containing Richard Garriott’s actual blood? Now is your chance! The Tabula Rasa developer is selling artwork containing his blood for the low-low price of $5000 (around £3852) via eBay alongside a selection of items from his new MMO, Shroud of the Avatar.

The item description says that, “The Lord British Blood Reliquary is a beautiful and unique piece of art made of bakelite, copper, nails, glass, and mirrored glass that can be hung on your wall.” I think I would worry that hanging this up would give Richard Garriott the ability to apparate into my house whenever he felt like it. I’d come downstairs at night and he’d be in my kitchen, fridge door open, drinking milk direct from the carton.

To prove this is real, the blood was drawn from Garriott during a livestream yesterday. “We are literally giving our blood to the playerbase,” he explained to the bemused looking nurse who had come to stick him with a needle. I hope this means that there will be sweat and tears containers for sale soon.

There are only (only!) six reliquaries available, though as yet it doesn’t look like anyone has bid on them. Perhaps that’s because they only ship within the United States.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

I like to think of the map, on both town and world level, as a highly abstract representation of the actual environment. Only this way, the game world becomes a believable place in space and time. What I mean is, that when you enter a town and see the outline of, say, 3 houses and there are less than 10 people around, it doesn't mean the town is actually that small, but that the game restricts your view on locations and persons that are important to your quest (plus random noise). Likewise, the world map can only be interpreted as high level description of the characters' surroundings.

This kind of illusion or make-belief works better in U4&5 (I suppose 1-3 too) since the towns are on another level than the map itself. With U6 the world 'shrunk' a great deal to me since the buildings all happen to be on the map level itself, every city is just right around the corner, a few steps from the next. Even though technically that was the same in the earlier Ultimas it has the strange psychological effect to make the world seem smaller. It feels like, instead of traversing whole continents, you are just taking a walk around the block.

 

[BlackGoat]

Yeah, this is why I'm interested in branching off from u5 and returning to the dual-scale of the earlier games. A sort of 'what-could've-been' for Ultima. I really dig the detail of u7, but there's something about trekking across the overworld landscapes in u5 that is just way more evocative.

 

[Melan]

Good ideas. I would also enjoy seeing a dual-level approach to exploration.

What would capture much from the feel of U5 is the sense of expanding environmental interaction. People usually bring up the crafting, but that is just one among many. In the better Ultimas, and especially U5, your sense of progression was reinforced not just by becoming more powerful, but finding new ways of traversing terrain, deciphering clues, and gaining access to hidden knowledge. That is a very peculiar, very rare thing in CRPGs, and no longer a common feature of tabletop games either (although when you look at the really, really old traditions in gaming, still between the border of complex wargaming and RPGs, it is there).

In U5, you gained access to climbing gear and could scale previously forbidding mountains; board a ship and sail the seas; learn the words of power and open up sealed dungeons; discover there was a full underworld layer below those dungeons; and then find out there was an even more dungeony dungeon under the underworld under the dungeons! Eventually, you'd get yourself a flying carpet. You could learn a bit of music and use it to solve a puzzle - a seemingly random piece of interaction turning plot-critical. You would have an idea how to find rare reagents like nightshade and mandrake root, but you would have to learn where and how to harvest them (sadly, this disappeared from U6 on). In U6, you would get to learn Gargish and get to talk to the monsters you were just fighting previously. Not only would new areas open up, but old ones would gain a new sense of significance.

And of course, something that cannot be recaptured anymore, the mythical memories of previous ages (games) lent Ultima a layer of depth that was its own (which the Wizardry series never had, and Might&Magic didn't have much of).

But I'd really like to see a game that started you off with the typical interaction standards of CRPGs (combat, conversation, character building, equipment, exploration), and layered on increasingly complex means of discovering the world in its full depth.

 

[:Flash:]

What I'd like to see is a game similar to Ultima V in terms of look and feel - tile-based, top-down view, low-res graphics and controls based on keyboard shortcuts. There could be some improvements in these areas, but I'd keep it rather conservative. The Nazghul engine comes pretty close to my ideas.
But I'd also want more content - larger and more interesting locations to explore, more NPCs to talk to, a real dialogue system and real choices with consequences - i.e. a world that reacts to your actions and doesn't reset everything the moment you leave a town. And there should be sidequests, something Origin never really cared about.

Such a game would be a nice project for an amateur designer: The programming part is easy and the required assets are relatively simple to create. In fact, this is a plan I've been considering for several years, but I never really got started. Kind of my eternal vaporware project that I'm going to finish right in time for retirement...

It looks like we have the same eternal vaporware projects.
Ultima V is the point of reference for me. I always look at that game and ask myself "what if they had improved on everything that was in there, instead of just the graphics".
It is amazing to think about that Ultima V is going to be 30 years old soon, and the only thing that has improved is the graphics.

I'd like to add things like the skill-based environmental interactions from Realms of Arkania and improve on that as well. Have horse travel, but requiring a horse handling skill, climbing, etc.. Make it possible to get lost if your cartography isn't good enough (still have to figure out how that'd work on in a top-down game).

I have actually been "designing" that game for 15 years, and have lore and gameworld, but not a single line of code. I don't think I'll ever get around to implementing it before retirement.

 

[Comte]

Started playing Ultima Underworld 2. Saw this interesting post on a blog while looking for info on character builds:

A while back I compiled this list. My point in doing so was to demonstrate that Ultima, unlike say Wizardry or Might and Magic or the Gold Box Games or any other series of CRPGs, was essentially about doing ritual magic, and that killing monsters was mostly a sideline or distraction.

MAJOR MAGICAL WORKINGS AND INITIATIONS IN THE "ULTIMA" SERIES OF COMPUTER GAMES

Ultima I (1980):

--After initiation into a minium of two occult groups, travel backwards in time to the eve of Mondain's Great Working, and ruin evermore his Gem of Immortality.

Ultima II (1982):

--Claim the Quicksword, an artifact from outside time.
--Seek out and receive baptism from "Father Antos."
--Travel backwards in time to the antediluvian age and slay another evil wizard, Mondain's protege and child-bride Minax.

Ultima III (1983):

--Find the hidden way to the magic land.
--Undergo four rituals of scarification.
--Compel the Earth Serpent to do your bidding.
--Receive the benediction of the Lord of Time.
--Exorcise the magical construct EXODUS using the cards of Love, Sol, Moons, and Death.

Ultima IV (now we're talking) (1985):

--Claim the Eight Runes and Eight Stones of Virtue.
--Find the Lost Shrine of Spirituality in the Supernal Realm.
--Achieve the Eight-Part Initiation into the Way of the Avatar.
--Seize the Skull of Mondain and destroy it.
--Defeat an infinite army of demons.
--Open the way to the Abyss with the Bell of Courage, Book of Truth, and Candle of Love.
--Navigate the Abyss and find the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom.

Ultima V (1988):

--Visit the Codex eight times and learn the Inner Wisdom of the Way of the Avatar.
--Assume leadership of the Resistance, an occult society, while infiltrating the highest ranks of the Oppression, a diametrically opposed society.
--Find the three enduring shards of Mondain's Gem of Immortality and ritually destroy them.
--Receive fourth-degree ordination in the Way of the Avatar from your Holy Guardian Angel.
--Speak the holy words, and descend into the "Hole in the World."

Ultima VI (1990):

--Communicate with the extradimensional Wisps, and learn the secret word that destroys the world.
--Learn the magic language Gargish.
--Accept the Amulet of Submission.
--Enter rapport with the spirits of Mondain, Minax, and EXODUS.
--Achieve the least initiation into the traditions of the Gargoyles.
--Transverse the impassable mountains of rigor.
--Assume control of the extratemporal Vortex Cube.
--Marry the Way of the Avatar to the Gargish tradition by banishing the Codex back to the Abyss. (Alchemy!)

Ultima Underworld (1992):

--Undergo ritual initiation into the Knights of Carabus, another occult society.
--Recover the Tripartite Key of Truth, Love, and Courage.
--Open the Chamber of Virtue.
--Claim, then destroy, the Eight Talismans of Virtue, achieving the highest possible initiation of the Way of the Avatar.

Ultima VII (1992):

--Join the Fellowship, yet another occult society.
--Endure ritual initiation into the Fellowship.
--Defeat the ritual wards and wake Penumbra, the sleeping fortuneteller.
--Find the lost race of Emps.
--Communicate again with the Wisps.
--Ride with the Ferryman to the land of the Dead.
--Free the Dead from their enslavement to the dark lich.
--Volunteer to sacrifice yourself in the Well of Souls.
--Learn the Answers of Life and Death.
--Accquire patronage of the extratemporal Lord of Time.
--Defeat the Monster in the Tetrahedron.
--Reach the lost island Ambrosia and bypass its wards.
--Break the power of the Moons.
--Sit in the Seat of Virtue, and detonate the Black Gate.
--Visit the Isle of Fire and achieve the initiations of Truth, Love, and Courage.
--Claim the Blackrock Sword.
--Replicate the alchemical banishing of the Codex, with the core of EXODUS.

Ultima Underworld II (1993):

--Open the Labyrinth of Worlds.
--Pass the tests of the Scintillus Academy Final Exam, winning initiation into still another occult society (albeit one already destroyed).
--Rouse the spirit of Praecor Loth, King of the World.
--Crash the floating castle, Killorn Keep.
--Navigate the Supernal Realm.
--Bind an elemental prince into your soul.
--End the world of Talorus and bring about the next.
--See the future.

Ultima VII 2: Serpent Isle (1993):

--Take the Test of Knighthood and join the Knights of Monitor.
--Endure the ritual bloodletting of the Test.
--Meet and slay your totem animal.
--Accept ritual scarification (tattooing).
--Summon the Great Sea Turtle.
--Witness the rebirth of the Phoenix and claim her Egg.
--Create life.
--Loose the demon Arcadion upon the world.
--Achieve the second degree of initiation into the Gargish mysteries.
--With the Helm of Courage, Rose of Love, and Mirror of Truth, break an eons-old enchantment.
--Loot the Temple of Order and the Temple of Chaos.
--Achieve the highest level of initiation into the Ophidian mysteries.
--Plant the Tree of Balance.
--Resurrect the dead.
--Bring about the apocalypse.
--Sacrifice your closest friend.
--Open the Wall of Lights and escape this mortal coil into the Supernal Realm.
--Restore the Great Earth Serpent.
--Bind your dead friend into magical bondage.


Ultima VIII: Pagan (1994):

-- Witness the Ceremony of Eternity and earn initiation into the Adepts of Earth, a necromantic occult society.
-- Apprentice yourself to the necromancer Vividos.
--Summon the shades of dead necromancers of epochs past, and learn their wisdom.
-- Speak to Lithios, Titan of Earth.
-- Inter the elder necromancer Lothian, elevating your master Vividos to leadership and yourself to pride of place at his right hand.
-- Travel as a pilgrim to the Birthplace of Moriens, a sacred site.
-- Commune with the Zealan Deities.
-- Grant peace to Kumash-Gor, an unquiet spirit.
-- Join the Adepts of Air, another occult society.
-- Hear Stratos, the Mystic Voice, and earn the Breath of Wind.
-- Free the bound Titan of Water, dooming the world to slow drowning.
-- Initiate into the ranks of the Adepts of Fire, slaying those who would stop you.
-- Summon the demon Arcadion and bend him once more to your will.
-- Participate in the Rite of Flame, bargaining with the Titan of Fire.
-- Murder your way to the rank of First Sorcerer, leader of the Adepts of Fire.
-- Assemble the blackrock “key of the world” from elements of earth, wind, water, and fire, and open the world of Pagan to the Void.
-- Slay the four Titans of Pagan and claim the office of Titan of Ether.

Ultima IX: Ascension (1999) is a hideous mess but its original script called for the main character to complete a reckoning on the world of Britannia, Book of Revelations style, destroying both the Guardian and Lord British in an act of apotheosis. This would have been, by my count, the fourth time the Avatar destroyed a world in some kind of fiery apocalypse, excluding the earthquakes and disasters which supposedly heralded the ends of each of the first three games, and which were incidental to the player’s actions.

 

[Infinitron]

Comte It's a consequence of the classic Ultima-style quest design, which is all about having one big main quest where you have to hunt for clues to locate various magical artifacts in an open world. It makes sense that you'd combine those artifacts to perform various "rituals".

(The Japanese interpreted this by using a lot of "collect the four elemental crystal"-style plots in early JRPGs, but tended to miss the point by making them completely linear.)

Meanwhile, as the Ultima series progressed it began to depart from that strict structure, but continued to mimic its themes. Which is why most of the optional side quests in Ultima VII are about going back and forth talking to people rather than killing the rats in their basement.

 

[Neanderthal]

In Labyrinth of Worlds you can also extinguish Guardians presence on each world, deconstruct a spell trap in Killorn Keep, search out new rune combinations not in manuals, an come to think on it all kinds on other shit. An a damn lot o shit he points out were optional an all, could totally skip or miss it.

 

[LESS T_T]

Finally! The Cover to Ultima VII That Never Was.

(To see this without facebook compression, download from this link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0dc50hksmwqm4da/Ultima 7-33.png?dl=0 )

This is my cover to Ultima 7:The Black Gate from an alternate universe where Origin Systems decided to go with an illustrative cover rather than a flat black, high-concept, box.

Here we have the Avatar with his companions, standing in a river of blood as the Guardian pulls the strings of the Fellowship in the background. The blood, of course, represents the gruesome murders which the Avatar and his party must investigate. This is all in a grim and somber color palette to highlight the melancholy nature of the plot. The Avatar's downcast eyes search for clues to end the bloody doings of Batlin and his zealots. (Sorry about the spoiler!)

As you can see, I've got The Avatar in front, Iolo with a crossbow on the right, Dupre on the left, with Jaana just behind him. You will also notice that the Guardian has ears. This is because when I did the animation of the Guardian poking his head through the screen and talking to the player, he didn't poke his head all the way through the screen. He simply did not push his face through far enough to reveal his ears. A happy "coincidence" of this rationale is that I did not have to model the Guardian's ears in 3D with the crappy tools I had available at the time. You'll notice the Guardian's face in that animation is made up of very simple shapes that overlap; This was by design. I knew I couldn't do a realistic face at that time, so I went for simple and cartoony.

So there you have it! The Cover to Ultima 7 that never was.

I released this to my Patrons last week. Many of them also have the full resolution version, as well as the raw Photoshop file with all the layers intact. What you're looking at is 33% resolution. There's also a host of pre-production sketches and false starts on this cover. So it you want to see how it progressed, you should consider becoming a patron. For as little as a dollar a month you can get this stuff early.

--Denis

Want to see more, visit: www.denisloubet.com
Want to help me do art: www.patreon.com/denisloubet

https://www.facebook.com/artofdenis...516021964298/1018004051582160/?type=3&theater

 

[---]

No Shamino, no cover

...
(not bad, btw... I find that it captures the spirit of U7, even if it's a bit too "dark")

 

[Junmarko]

Wow. Is he selling prints? I want one.

 

[octavius]

Can't say I like this "muted" art style that is all the rage nowadays.

This is much more vibrant and stylish IMO:

 

[BlackGoat]

Yeah, I'm not really into how soft everything looks on the new u7 cover, especially compared to the original black box and the u5 box. The u5 box is so good, super vivid and strange. Promises real adventure.

 

[Neanderthal]

I'm rubbing my ankh.

 

[octavius]

I'm rubbing my ankh.

You ankher.

 

[mindx2]

I'm rubbing my ankh.

I can't rub mine anymore... there all gone...

 

[Daemongar]

Yeah, I'm not really into how soft everything looks on the new u7 cover, especially compared to the original black box and the u5 box. The u5 box is so good, super vivid and strange. Promises real adventure.

Yeah, the "new" U7 cover I saw before and thought it took inspiration from U9 too much. That is, there is no reason to highlight the Guardian as a palpable enemy on the cover, since you spend the whole game just trying to figure out his angle, not confront him. The game is NOT about fighting the guardian. The highlight of the game was seeing him try try to come out of the blackrock obelisk (well, I never saw that ending, I always returned to earth) but I hear the animation on the end is good.

 

[Bumvelcrow]

I'm glad we didn't get that cover. One thing I liked about Ultimas 4 and 5 was that, as well as being great images and well drawn, they didn't really highlight the characters. In both of them the protagonists are seen from behind, allowing the player to project themselves into the character. I found Ultima 6 a bit disappointing in that it basically said 'this is you', forcing the player to conform to that image. I initially didn't like the black Ultima 7 cover as I wanted another epic view of Britannia, but in hindsight it's aged very well and once again allows the player to use their imagination.

I think my favourite cover is Serpent Isle, with Ultima 5 a very close second. But that may be coloured by how much I loved the Ophidian backstory in SI, my favourite bit of world building in any Ultima, and quite possibly any game.

Frightening to think how my teenage years were shaped by the twin pillars of U7 and SI! Without them I could have been a productive and functioning member of society.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

as well as being great images and well drawn, they didn't really highlight the characters. In both of them the protagonists are seen from behind, allowing the player to project themselves into the character

Agreed. In addition to that, when they finally showed the Avatar, he looked pretty stupid. In the cover art as well as the in-game portraits. More like a big stupid brute than the personification of virtue.

HUURRR! ME AVATAR! ME GOOD!

Even Dolph Lundgren as He-Man looks more dignified and sophistcated than that.

Personally, as much as I like cheesy 80s fantasy art, they don't come close to the gravity, menace and mystery that is expressed in the elegant minimalism of the cover of Black Gate.

Spoiler

It might just be the best cover art of any game I can think of (maybe even better than M&M6, even though I love that one).

That being said, I still kinda like the alternative cover.

Bonus feature:

The Ultima 7 portrait looks better, but the Serpent Isle ones..

You're In The Club And This Guy Slaps Your Girlfriend's Ass. Wat do?

He really reminds me of someone from the movies, I just can't put my finger on it.

Straight Outta Britain

FemAvatar looks pretty slick tho

 

[---]

How can he be stupid?
He is so happy and cute

 

[ghostdog]

^ This one is definitely Robin Wright:

This one's probably a bad depiction of Ryan O Neil from Barry Lyndon:

Hmmm, not sure, maybe...

Spoiler

 

[Bumvelcrow]

Which reminds me, I much preferred the portraits in U7 which were hand drawn and cartoonish to the digitised ones in SI. It made the characters look just like ordinary humans rather than magical Britannians to my young and impressionable mind.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

This one's probably a bad depiction of Ryan O Neil from Barry Lyndon:

Thats a possibility! After looking at that dumbass facial expression of the portrait for a while and pondering why it seems so familiar, it struck me as resembling perhaps a long haired Reb Brown: