Vapourware The Tangut Prophecy: FOnline RPG, Historical Fiction, 12th Century China

[Saduj]

Sounds like we'll still be able to LARP play as a woman disguising herself as man. All that will be missing is the idiotic, cliche epic climax where the heroine reveals herself to be a woman who "did everything better than a man ever could" due to her vagina-power feminine widsom, whereupon she is executed altering the Chinese perception of women forever in the process! But a true LARPer feminist doesn't need to see such an ending on the screen, its in our hearts.

:kwanzania:

 

[Mortmal]

its a nice setting and promising, buti just want to add not being able to pick a female character cause of historic reason is just wrong . Id rather see it implemented like in mount and blade with some drawback while negotiating with lords, diplomacy penalty and such. You could say there was not many women fighters in history , but not so many men either. How many men were allowed, just allowed, to carry a sword ? Around 1% in medieval time.

You do need to take a refresher course on your Asian history. For this kind of game, a female PC among Mongols tribes? Maybe. In Pre-Joseon Korea? Maybe, but difficult as it would require a lot of extra work. In Song/Yuan China? LOL NO.

For you to have a female PC on this game he would truly need to create two entirely different games. That's a fact, not an exageration. And the second game would end up being far more of a mixture of Bureau 13 and Ookuki than it would be Fallout.

I wont lie, i dont know much about chinese history, not nearly as much as european one or antiquitiy. However its not new that history books dont leave much room to women. Now things are starting to change .Apparently a simple wiki search makes it looks like possible:


East Asia

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Oil painting on silk, "Hua Mulan Goes to War"

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Central Asia

• Khutulun was a 13th century Mongol princess, the daughter of the Mongol leader Qaidu Khan and a great-great granddaughter of Genghis Khan. According to legend she was a skilled warrior and wrestler who vowed that she would only marry a man who could defeat her in wrestling. Although no man was ever able to out-wrestle her, Khutuln ended up marrying a warrior named Abtakul (possibly to squelch rumors about an incestuous relationship between her and her father). Her story was made famous by foreign chroniclers Marco Polo, and Ibn Battuta, both of whom had heard of Khutuln's legend on their travels through Asia.

[edit]​

History of China|Historical China

• Hua Mulan a legendary woman who went to war disguised as a man, and was able to return home after years of war without being found out.
• Ng Mui/Ng Moy was a Shaolin monastery abbess who created a concentrated kung fu system especially suitable for women.
• Yim Wing-chun/Yim Ving Tsun, often cited in Wing Chun legends as the first Wing Chun master outside the monastic tradition, pupil of Ng Mui.
• Fu Hao was one of the many wives of King Wu Ding of the Shang Dynasty and, unusually for that time, also served as a military general and high priestess.
• Mother Lü began a peasant rebellion.
• Li Xiu defeated rebels as a military commander.
• Lady of Yue a swordswoman
• Qin Liangyu fought battles with her husband.
• Sun Shangxiang, who is often depicted as a tomboy, was the sister of the warlord Sun Quanas. She received extensive martial arts training, and her maidservants were armed with weapons, which was odd for her time.
• Lady Zhurong It's unknown whether she existed, but she was the only woman portrayed in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms who took part in fighting in the war during the three kingdoms period alongside her husband.
• Princess Pingyang formed a rebel army to assist her father in overthrowing the Emperor, and was declared 'no ordinary woman' upon her death.

 

[LundB]

Seriously, China's history is LONG, and quite complex. The role of women varied quite a bit depending on time period, rulers, and what subgroup of 'Chinese' you're dealing with (Remember, what we now consider China has been inhabited and ruled by a variety of ethnic groups).

To my knowledge, during the vast majority (if not all) of the Jin/Southern Song period, which is the time period CrazyLoon is using, women had VERY limited roles, almost none of which would be especially engaging in the sort of RPG he's making, and even if they were, it'd require a completely different game instead of a few changed dialogue lines. If exceptions existed, they would be extraordinarily rare. I'm almost certain of this, but I'd be quite willing to confirm this with a relative of mine, who is both very knowledgeable about Imperial Chinese history, and has speaking access to some serious experts in the field. Of course, that's quite redundant, as CrazyLoon will make the game how he wants regardless.

Edit: Though speaking of which, CrazyLoon, if you want or need any historical info or documents, I could quite easily get in contact with my relative and ask him to acquire and scan them. He has access to a ton of stuff in the fields of Chinese history and language (including proper pre-20th century Classical Chinese).

 

[Aurore]

Frankly I am tired of seeinf this same discussion on every forum.

Excluding half the population from a game is MISOGYNISTIC and SEXIST pure and simple. Historical accuracy doesnt come into it and does not trump gameplay for anyone who can call themseoves a game designer worth their salt.

If we DO look at historical accuracy we discover that chinese women were invovled in warfare all the way back to 1000BC.

CLaiming that they dont count because they are too few is a laughable joke. When you consider that the upper 90%s of chinese MALES were peasant farmers, then you can say that MALE participation in warfare was vanishingly small too. LESS vanishingly small than womens participation but we are now splitting hair.

The bottom line? The History excuse is used by dozens of misogynistic devs to exclude women from their games, and as a woman I can tell you, i do not buy such games, and I will not buy this one no matter how good it is because as a point od principle i will not give money to organisations that promote sexism and descrimination, which is exactly what this practice does.

I would reccomend to any woman and to any man whio cares about fair and equal treatment to not buy the game either.

Should they include playable women, then i will be the first to buy it.

Aurore

 

[tuluse]

Well since he's planning on releasing the game for free, no one will be buying it

 

[Aurore]

Free is never free.

Seriously don't know why devs isnist on insulting and excluding. Characters are exceptional. That is the point. They are heroes. To quote one chinese woman 'Do you truely believe that Honor, Courage and Determination are the province of men only?'

Allowing female characters even if rare in the period is perfectly possible and reasonable. Id there were just a handful it doesnt matter, because YOU ARE ONE OF THAT HANDFUL.

Simple as that.

 

[Aurore]

Furthermore, it impacts no one else. YOU only play one character. If you choose to play a male ccharacter, what I choose to play affects no one else. So be as 'historically accurate' as you like in your game. But give women the opportunity to play someone they can identify with, even if men would not choose to play one. It hurts no one and avoids exclusion. You'd think it shouldn't be necessary to make such obvious points.

 

[LundB]

Characters are exceptional. That is the point. They are heroes.

I can forgive someone for thinking this, given that gaming is overrun with wish-fulfillment fantasies, but it's just not true. Some of the most interesting characters are 'ordinary' people who must deal with the perfectly plausible hardships their lives present. Not grand 'heroes' or 'chosen ones', but people.

Anyway, rarity in warfare and combat was far from the only issue I was taking into consideration when saying a female character would require a completely different game. There are all sorts of other societal issues that must be taken into account.

Historical accuracy most certainly does fit into it, as it seems to be one of the core ideas of this game. As for it being MISOGYNISTIC and SEXIST, I'm curious to hear whether you think that historical fiction is being sexist when female characters are in roles that are plausible for the time.

And yes, it does hurt someone, since the creator of the game either needs to compromise one of its core tenets (very grounded in realism, few fantastic elements), or create what amounts to a second game.

Anyway, I'm almost certain this is a troll alt, mainly because of the bit where you say you won't be 'buying' a game that's planned to be freely downloadable (In the unlikely event that a Codex Workshop project ever actually sees the light of day), so I'm not going to make this post any longer.

 

[Cool name]

@ Mortmal:

I did mention the mongols on my post. Female warriors among them were not a rarity at all.

Female warriors who did pass as men would be kind of pointless. How's that different from playing a man and LARPing in your head you are a tomboy in a guy's costume? Neither the sprite nor the dialogue options can be different, otherwise you are not passing very well as a man. And female monks I am not sure they count as in general they were outside both court life and military life, which from what we have seen so far does look like it is what the game does focus so far. None of the other examples were girls who just did happen to be warriors: All of them were pretty exceptional cases.

Other than that Chinese History is bleeping long. A dozen examples in more than three thousands years of history is, well, very poor. What you are saying would be similar to say we should have female knights in medieval europe games because of Joan of Arc, or that female warriors should be in for a Sengoku period game just because noble ladies, and then just some, were trained in combat because it was a time rife with chaos and battle.

The most important thing to remember is that for the character to be allowed to be a girl without it requiring a lot of extra work females in the role the main character does play need to be somewhat normal. Not commonplace, of course, but normal enough for their experience not to be completely different from a man's. You could MAYBE get away with it as an acceptable break from reality in the Tang Dynasty, but the Southern Song period was not a very loose one in that regard. And even in Tang times one would really need to write a very different plot for a female character to make sense in an historical fashion, as most of the power they could obtain was social in nature.

The second most important thing to remember is Confucianism. Ancient China did love Confucius. Confucianism was one of the most important cultural influences in aristocratic China from the Eastern Han period onwards, and Confucius did not really like women all that much. You do the math.



@ Aurore: You do REALLY need to take a refresher course on your Chinese history. I am a girl. I would not play a RPG game set in modern times or cyberpunk times or whatever where I am forced to play as some guy, at least if the guy isn't really hot and the game isn't paperdolly enough to have him go around shirtless and bleep. But this game does actually have a proper reason not to have girls as PCs given the era and the apparent topic. Would you say that to not have girls as soldiers in the trenchs in a WWI game is MISOGYNISTIC and SEXIST? What about having a female knight during the crusades? Get some context, gurl.

To quote one chinese woman 'Do you truely believe that Honor, Courage and Determination are the province of men only?'

Nope. But openly participating in politics, leading military forces, and the like in Southern Song China? Yupity yup.

Allowing female characters even if rare in the period is perfectly possible and reasonable. Id there were just a handful it doesnt matter, because YOU ARE ONE OF THAT HANDFUL..

And thus he needs to write entirely new dialogue, script entirely new events and cutscenes, and develop entirely new options and situations just because your character is unique and thus no one will react to her as they would react to a guy doing the same things, as for the guy those were acceptable and, inside the context of the game, normal.

A single guy. Or maybe two or three guys. Doing a game in their free time. Sure thingie. Reality check = failed.

 

[Mortmal]

@ Mortmal:

I did mention the mongols on my post. Female warriors among them were not a rarity at all.

Female warriors who did pass as men would be kind of pointless. How's that different from playing a man and LARPing in your head you are a tomboy in a guy's costume? Neither the sprite nor the dialogue options can be different, otherwise you are not passing very well as a man. And female monks I am not sure they count as in general they were outside both court life and military life, which from what we have seen so far does look like it is what the game does focus so far. None of the other examples were girls who just did happen to be warriors: All of them were pretty exceptional cases.

Other than that Chinese History is bleeping long. A dozen examples in more than three thousands years of history is, well, very poor. What you are saying would be similar to say we should have female knights in medieval europe games because of Joan of Arc, or that female warriors should be in for a Sengoku period game just because noble ladies, and then just some, were trained in combat because it was a time rife with chaos and battle.

The most important thing to remember is that for the character to be allowed to be a girl without it requiring a lot of extra work females in the role the main character does play need to be somewhat normal. Not commonplace, of course, but normal enough for their experience not to be completely different from a man's. You could MAYBE get away with it as an acceptable break from reality in the Tang Dynasty, but the Southern Song period was not a very loose one in that regard. And even in Tang times one would really need to write a very different plot for a female character to make sense in an historical fashion, as most of the power they could obtain was social in nature.

The second most important thing to remember is Confucianism. Ancient China did love Confucius. Confucianism was one of the most important cultural influences in aristocratic China from the Eastern Han period onwards, and Confucius did not really like women all that much. You do the math.



@ Aurore: You do REALLY need to take a refresher course on your Chinese history. I am a girl. I would not play a RPG game set in modern times or cyberpunk times or whatever where I am forced to play as some guy, at least if the guy isn't really hot and the game isn't paperdolly enough to have him go around shirtless and bleep. But this game does actually have a proper reason not to have girls as PCs given the era and the apparent topic. Would you say that to not have girls as soldiers in the trenchs in a WWI game is MISOGYNISTIC and SEXIST? What about having a female knight during the crusades? Get some context, gurl.

To quote one chinese woman 'Do you truely believe that Honor, Courage and Determination are the province of men only?'

Nope. But openly participating in politics, leading military forces, and the like in Southern Song China? Yupity yup.

Allowing female characters even if rare in the period is perfectly possible and reasonable. Id there were just a handful it doesnt matter, because YOU ARE ONE OF THAT HANDFUL..

And thus he needs to write entirely new dialogue, script entirely new events and cutscenes, and develop entirely new options and situations just because your character is unique and thus no one will react to her as they would react to a guy doing the same things, as for the guy those were acceptable and, inside the context of the game, normal.

A single guy. Or maybe two or three guys. Doing a game in their free time. Sure thingie. Reality check = failed.

AHem.. there was some women fighting alongside durign the crusades with their husbands... Ida d'autriche, florine, daughter of Eudes 1er of burgundy , sichelgaite (bride of robert gusicard) . They were related to fight alongside with the same equipment. And it was not uncommon for women to bring ammunition on the very walls that were besieged.
Its related by Anne comene (byzantine empire princess) in the Alexiad.
Now chinese history i cannot elaborate as much, but i think they were recording only the life of nobility, if a lowborn woman would take weapons and fight alongside men i doubt you could find it recorded anywhere. But i suspect it to be possible.

 

[LundB]

Now chinese history i cannot elaborate as much, but i think they were recording only the life of nobility, if a lowborn woman would take weapons and fight alongside men i doubt you could find it recorded anywhere. But i suspect it to be possible.

I'm seeing a whole lot of conjecture here, and no research-based fact. Anyway, CrazyLoon will make the game how CrazyLoon makes the game. It sounds like he has a pretty coherent vision of what he wants it to be, so this whole debate is somewhat pointless. I'm much more interested in the answer to my question of when in the 12th century this'll be set, as the various rulers in power could have quite an impact on the world and quests.

 

[Indranys]

I agree with CrazyLoon's plan.
I think Mount and Blade reactions to female character are sufficient for the game.
It won't need too much work, just add a few lines to the NPCs to express their discomfort or amazement towards the uncommon lady warrior.
Surely it's won't be as historically accurate as the male protagonist case.
But it's more reasonable than to create unique dialogues and quests for female character just to describe the differences between male and female social roles at that time.
Whatever decision he makes about this matter, I'll support it fully.

 

[Azarkon]

Seriously, China's history is LONG, and quite complex. The role of women varied quite a bit depending on time period, rulers, and what subgroup of 'Chinese' you're dealing with (Remember, what we now consider China has been inhabited and ruled by a variety of ethnic groups).

To my knowledge, during the vast majority (if not all) of the Jin/Southern Song period, which is the time period CrazyLoon is using, women had VERY limited roles, almost none of which would be especially engaging in the sort of RPG he's making, and even if they were, it'd require a completely different game instead of a few changed dialogue lines. If exceptions existed, they would be extraordinarily rare. I'm almost certain of this, but I'd be quite willing to confirm this with a relative of mine, who is both very knowledgeable about Imperial Chinese history, and has speaking access to some serious experts in the field. Of course, that's quite redundant, as CrazyLoon will make the game how he wants regardless.

Nah. Both Khitan and Jurchen women were allowed to become warriors. Southern Song women were not, but they influenced court politics via other *mm-hmm* ways. The Liao Dynasty was known for its female military leaders and politically assertive empresses. It's easy to justify female characters with agency in this era of China and indeed the cultural tension between the martial, aggressive 'barbarian' women and the demure, proper, but manipulative 'Song Chinese' women, with the latter ultimately triumphing over the former, provide great opportunities.

 

[Azarkon]

I'm sorry to say this, but with an English audience, you risk niche appeal just as much as going with Chinese because there are even less people who are liable to know a thing about what you're doing. Very few people in the English speaking world knows European history in detail, so imagine how much know about Chinese history. There are also less people in the West who care about Chinese history and culture. Bioware found that even with their designed-for-mass-appeal Jade Empire. Hipster 'Asiaphiles' talk about being interested in Asian culture, but practically speaking this interest is limited precisely to the two things you don't want in your game - 'anime style' fantasy and 'kung fu' mysticism. It's going to be tough to sell a historical setting a tiny fraction of the English speaking audience has even heard of, and who have no cultural attachment to. Course, you knew that when you picked the obscure Tanguts to be your center piece, who are not even going to appeal to the average Chinese due to them being, effectively, a mix of Tibetans and Mongols and absent in standard Chinese history. Though, I am curious as to what motivated you to do this.

The whole point of the game is to not sell it. If I wanted to make a game that will win me popularity contests and make me money, I wouldn't make a Chinese history game. Hell, I wouldn't even bother with the RPG genre to begin with. There's a reason why top selling RPGs nowadays are hybrid games. Mainstream gamers don't care about choice and consequences or being able to make different decisions or the said RPG mechanics, they just want to be this Level 99 Paladin with Cloud's Sword or something. They want to see blood and guts fly everywhere when they swing at this orc. They want to be the world's chosen savior. They want to romance this elven chick. Players, GLOBALLY, care about these things, so fuck them. I couldn't care less if they are not interested in my game, because THEIR INTERESTS were the reason the gaming industry is in this god awful fucking shape it's in today in the first place. Sea's Dragon Age mod Thirst has merely 44 endorsements. On the other hand, my fucking god, "BETTER SEX CUTSCENES" HAS AN ASTOUNDING 1758 ENDORSEMENTS! The same goes for the Chinese folks too. I refuse to make another Three Kingdom fairytale so folks can virtually bang Diaochan as Lubu once again.

My response was towards your decision to change the game's language to English from Chinese - the language that better fits the game, in your own words - and justifying it on the basis of there being a bigger audience for this game in the English speaking community. I'm saying that's not a very rational course of action. But provided what you want is Codex fame, it is rationalizable.

 

[oscar]

Sadly this is what happens when people begin to believe the "women can do anything men can do just as well, if not better!" fantasy propaganda. No you can't.

 

[Azarkon]

Sadly this is what happens when people begin to believe the "women can do anything men can do just as well, if not better!" fantasy propaganda. No you can't.

But that goes for men, too. People were and are not born equal, nor are they capable of 'doing anything.' As a poster mentioned above, 90% of males during that era of China were peasant farmers who fled at the first sign of trouble. Yet, his game is obviously a TB combat RPG where the PC is / becomes a seasoned warrior / military leader. That was not a career option open to the 'average male.'

The roles you choose to include in your game, and which you base your story and game mechanics around, are the product of artistic license. RPGs aren't history simulators. They're role simulators. In a historical RPG, the roles have to be historically justifiable, but they do not have to be historically representative. Preferably, however, they are thematically representative. That is to say, a game designed to show the 'grimdark' toil of 12th century China ought to have roles that serve to convey that idea.

 

[LundB]

Seriously, China's history is LONG, and quite complex. The role of women varied quite a bit depending on time period, rulers, and what subgroup of 'Chinese' you're dealing with (Remember, what we now consider China has been inhabited and ruled by a variety of ethnic groups).

To my knowledge, during the vast majority (if not all) of the Jin/Southern Song period, which is the time period CrazyLoon is using, women had VERY limited roles, almost none of which would be especially engaging in the sort of RPG he's making, and even if they were, it'd require a completely different game instead of a few changed dialogue lines. If exceptions existed, they would be extraordinarily rare. I'm almost certain of this, but I'd be quite willing to confirm this with a relative of mine, who is both very knowledgeable about Imperial Chinese history, and has speaking access to some serious experts in the field. Of course, that's quite redundant, as CrazyLoon will make the game how he wants regardless.

Nah. Both Khitan and Jurchen women were allowed to become warriors. Southern Song women were not, but they influenced court politics via other *mm-hmm* ways. The Liao Dynasty was known for its female military leaders and politically assertive empresses. It's easy to justify female characters with agency in this era of China and indeed the cultural tension between the martial, aggressive 'barbarian' women and the demure, proper, but manipulative 'Song Chinese' women, with the latter ultimately triumphing over the former, provide great opportunities.

Judging by what CrazyLoon has posted, we're not dealing with the Liao Dynasty, and that's not what I've been discussing, so the importance of women in that period is mostly irrelevant. We're talking decades out of the Liao and into the Jin. If I remember my dates right, 1167 is a good 5 or so emperors into the Jin, some time during Shìzōng's rule (By which point the Jin had become quite sinified, though Shìzōng tried hard to reverse at least a portion of said sinification).

Jin women tended to have significantly less general agency and power than their Liao counterparts had enjoyed. While martial values were deemed universally important, the idea that female warriors were a remotely normal occurrence is one even scholars eager to accept it admit is almost pure speculation (for example, Johnson's Women of the Conquest Dynasties readily admits this). There were stand-out cases, such as Yáng Miàozhēn, but there is little to indicate that this was anything but unusual. It runs up against this point made by Agassi:

The most important thing to remember is that for the character to be allowed to be a girl without it requiring a lot of extra work females in the role the main character does play need to be somewhat normal. Not commonplace, of course, but normal enough for their experience not to be completely different from a man's.

Sure, the other *mm-hmm* forms of influence existed, however as I said: "Almost none of [the plausible Jin/Southern Song female roles would be] especially engaging in the sort of RPG he's making, and even if they were, it'd require a completely different game instead of a few changed dialogue lines." They might make for an interesting game, sure, but they wouldn't fit well in THIS game, unless its apparent focus was changed rather drastically.

 

[Azarkon]

Seriously, China's history is LONG, and quite complex. The role of women varied quite a bit depending on time period, rulers, and what subgroup of 'Chinese' you're dealing with (Remember, what we now consider China has been inhabited and ruled by a variety of ethnic groups).

To my knowledge, during the vast majority (if not all) of the Jin/Southern Song period, which is the time period CrazyLoon is using, women had VERY limited roles, almost none of which would be especially engaging in the sort of RPG he's making, and even if they were, it'd require a completely different game instead of a few changed dialogue lines. If exceptions existed, they would be extraordinarily rare. I'm almost certain of this, but I'd be quite willing to confirm this with a relative of mine, who is both very knowledgeable about Imperial Chinese history, and has speaking access to some serious experts in the field. Of course, that's quite redundant, as CrazyLoon will make the game how he wants regardless.

Nah. Both Khitan and Jurchen women were allowed to become warriors. Southern Song women were not, but they influenced court politics via other *mm-hmm* ways. The Liao Dynasty was known for its female military leaders and politically assertive empresses. It's easy to justify female characters with agency in this era of China and indeed the cultural tension between the martial, aggressive 'barbarian' women and the demure, proper, but manipulative 'Song Chinese' women, with the latter ultimately triumphing over the former, provide great opportunities.

Judging by what CrazyLoon has posted, we're not dealing with the Liao Dynasty, and that's not what I've been discussing, so the importance of women in that period is mostly irrelevant. We're talking decades out of the Liao and into the Jin. If I remember my dates right, 1167 is a good 5 or so emperors into the Jin, some time during Shìzōng's rule (By which point the Jin had become quite sinified, though Shìzōng tried hard to reverse at least a portion of said sinification).

As for the Jin, their women tended to have significantly less general agency and power than their Liao counterparts had enjoyed. While martial values were deemed universally important, the idea that female warriors were a remotely normal occurrence is one even scholars eager to accept it admit is almost pure speculation (for example, Johnson's Women of the Conquest Dynasties readily admits this). There were stand-out cases, such as Yáng Miàozhēn, but there is little to indicate that this was anything but unusual. It runs up against this point made by Agassi:

The most important thing to remember is that for the character to be allowed to be a girl without it requiring a lot of extra work females in the role the main character does play need to be somewhat normal. Not commonplace, of course, but normal enough for their experience not to be completely different from a man's.

Sure, the other *mm-hmm* forms of influence existed, however as I said: "Almost none of [the plausible Jin/Southern Song female roles would be] especially engaging in the sort of RPG he's making, and even if they were, it'd require a completely different game instead of a few changed dialogue lines." They might make for an interesting game, sure, but they wouldn't fit well in THIS game, unless its apparent focus was changed rather drastically.

As I said before, it is completely fine for a role in a RPG to be exceptional, and what is important for historical RPGs is not that they are historically representative but historically justifiable. Jin Dynasty culture allowed women to be warriors, so that is sufficient ground for including such a role; whether they existed as a sizable population is irrelevant and even the best historical films / serials / etc. in other mediums take artistic licenses of this sort. At the end of the day, RPGs are not historical simulators, and trying to make them into such is hypocritical when you're making a TB combat game that features a character bound for martial glory.

What is important, therefore, is not the historical dimension in this case. I think a better argument against having female characters is simply that he doesn't want to take the time to write them. That's completely fine, and it's better to admit to a resource / motivation limitation than to try to brush it aside as a statement against feminism, which is petty and disingenuous.

 

[LundB]

As I said before, it is completely fine for a role in a RPG to be exceptional, and what is important for historical RPGs is not that they are historically representative but historically justifiable. Jin Dynasty culture allowed women to be warriors, so that is sufficient ground for including such a role; whether they existed as a representative population is irrelevant

Except a female warrior option wouldn't be historically justifiable without a number of fairly significant changes from the male warrior experience, precisely because of the demographic factors you deem irrelevant.

I think a better argument against having female characters is simply that he doesn't want to take the time to write them.

Which is an argument I've made in a number of posts in this thread. However, it's not just a matter of someone being too lazy to do the extra work of putting in all the requisite changes needed for plausible female PCs. The additions needed to make it encompass the more interesting female roles the time allowed would all but require the focus to change so much that it'd be an entirely different game on top of the already existing one.

to try to brush it aside as a statement against feminism, which is petty and disingenuous.

Which is something I've done exactly 0 times in any posts in this thread.

 

[Azarkon]

As I said before, it is completely fine for a role in a RPG to be exceptional, and what is important for historical RPGs is not that they are historically representative but historically justifiable. Jin Dynasty culture allowed women to be warriors, so that is sufficient ground for including such a role; whether they existed as a representative population is irrelevant

Except a female warrior option wouldn't be historically justifiable without a number of fairly significant changes from the male warrior experience, precisely because of the demographic factors you deem irrelevant.

Not necessarily. A culture that finds female warriors acceptable wouldn't reject such a person. There'd be changes to character's reactions here and there due to the rarity of the role, but beyond that nothing has to be justified. It's not as though we have records of the everyday experience of Jin women / women warriors. As is normal for historical fiction, the details are up to the creator's discretion.

Which is something I've done exactly 0 times in any posts in this thread.

I wasn't responding to you specifically with that line.

 

[Roguey]

In before Roguey demanding Song/Yuan China in games to be "fair"

What makes you think I'd do that?

 

[Saduj]

But provided what you want is Codex fame, it is rationalizable.

I don't understand the need to criticize someone for creating something with his own time and resources and sharing it with others without asking for anything in return - particularly when the criticism comes in the form of assigning him nonsensical motivations.

The guy put in hundreds of hours of work before ever mentioning the project on this site. I can't fathom the warped thought process that would conclude that this is attention seeking behavior. There are much easier ways to play "look at me" on the internets. Seems pretty obvious that he's invested his time in this way because he enjoys what he's doing.

If its something that doesn't appeal to you, so be it. But no need to make ludicrous attacks that fail under even passing scrutiny.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Is this Rock Paper Shotgun?

 

[Cool name]

Nah. Both Khitan and Jurchen women were allowed to become warriors. Southern Song women were not, but they influenced court politics via other *mm-hmm* ways.

Yes. But their *mm-hmm* ways would not really fit a role playing game in which you do travel around China, fight mongols, and do quests for corrupt court officials (and the odd good one). It would require a completely different 'second game' focused only on those girls.

The Liao Dynasty was known for its female military leaders and politically assertive empresses. It's easy to justify female characters with agency in this era of China and indeed the cultural tension between the martial, aggressive 'barbarian' women and the demure, proper, but manipulative 'Song Chinese' women, with the latter ultimately triumphing over the former, provide great opportunities.

I do concede that point. I did know about the mongols but am not very familiar with the Jurchen and such. I do usually have a very Han-centric view of Chinese history, my bad.

As I said before, it is completely fine for a role in a RPG to be exceptional, and what is important for historical RPGs is not that they are historically representative but historically justifiable. Jin Dynasty culture allowed women to be warriors, so that is sufficient ground for including such a role; whether they existed as a sizable population is irrelevant and even the best historical films / serials / etc. in other mediums take artistic licenses of this sort. At the end of the day, RPGs are not historical simulators, and trying to make them into such is hypocritical when you're making a TB combat game that features a character bound for martial glory.

But there is a point you do ignore, which is to my eyes the most important one: The game is about someone who does raise to martial glory. It is therefore natural for the main character to be one of 'the few' who do so. The premise itself is that he is one of those few who can, if he were not there would be no game.

What we do say is that to make this character a girl is different from that not because it is impossible (there are mongols in the game, we do know mongol girls could be warriors) but because it would require a lot of extra work from the point of view of the Southern Song context and culture: Court officials would react differently to you, your companions and enemies would react differently to you, even the peasants would react differently to you. For a certain amount of historical accuracy to remain all or most dialogues would need to rewritten, new options and paths through quests and conversations would need to be implemented, scripted scenes and events would need to be reworked. Few characters in the Southern Song period would react to a female warrior in the same way they do react to a male one. It would not be 'the same, just girly.'

The same could be said for playing a demure, proper, and manipulative girl. It would be nothing like playing the guy who does raise to martial glory, and thus you are not asking CrazyLoon to add an extra option as much as you are asking him to make an entirely different second game so that you can play as a girl: Different quests, different characters, different dialogues, different gameplay mechanics. Would that demure, proper, and manipulative girl even be traveling the countryside alone?

So to add girls as you do want he would need to make three different games instead of just one, as historical accuracy is one of his objectives. Did we mention already this is one guy making the game he would like to play? Fo' free? What you do ask for would be no small undertaking even for a big team. If this game was a Diablo-like action RPG I would say 'sure, do add mongol warrior girls.' as there would be few NPCs and little dialogue to rewrite. But a Fallout-like game, by definition an actual ROLE-PLAYING game, would require a huge amount of work just to keep it historically accurate.

What is important, therefore, is not the historical dimension in this case. I think a better argument against having female characters is simply that he doesn't want to take the time to write them. That's completely fine, and it's better to admit to a resource / motivation limitation than to try to brush it aside as a statement against feminism, which is petty and disingenuous.

This is the Codex. Everyone does have a bit of an attitude. Everyone is petty and disingenuous as well. By which I do mean: Yes, he was kind of WTF-worthy in the way he did explain his ideas and stuffies. I did just asume he was going for Codex Cred and move on. The game does look pretty neat, and that's all that matters in the end.

And I do have to find pretty amusing everyone got butthurt about the Feminist thingie yet did ignore that, gaspity gasp, he did criticize THE BLEEPING ROMANCE OF THE THREE KINGDOMS. Man, if you are going to white knight bleep at least do white knight the actually important bleep.

Though it would be awesome to actually have some videogames about Water Margin/水滸傳 instead of just RotTK. Are there any at all?

 

[Azarkon]

But provided what you want is Codex fame, it is rationalizable.

I don't understand the need to criticize someone for creating something with his own time and resources and sharing it with others without asking for anything in return - particularly when the criticism comes in the form of assigning him nonsensical motivations.

The guy put in hundreds of hours of work before ever mentioning the project on this site. I can't fathom the warped thought process that would conclude that this is attention seeking behavior. There are much easier ways to play "look at me" on the internets. Seems pretty obvious that he's invested his time in this way because he enjoys what he's doing.

If its something that doesn't appeal to you, so be it. But no need to make ludicrous attacks that fail under even passing scrutiny.

I am criticizing his decision to switch his game from a language for which it is historically and culturally sensible to a language that is neither based on the idea that there is a larger English reading audience for it. When a premise is false so is the logic that flows from that premise. His effort to develop a game in his own time is, of course, very commendable, but his justification for switching the language of the game from his initial design is not sound and he needs to know that.

I did not assign a motivation to his decision. He stated his motivation when he made the decision. I am referencing the pros and cons of making it English and the hypothetical rewards and drawbacks of such a change. Codex fame is a reward. Loss of cultural and historical resonance is a drawback.