The New DOOM Thread (2016)

[Excidium II]

I never played it until like 2 years ago, so different context helps I guess.

 

[Venser]

Also, Edge is a great map, the original version that is:

That's not the original.
Edge is awesome, I've played a version of it in probably every Arena FPS I tried including fucking Daikatana. It seems like the map was designed with movement and specific jumps in mind but turns out it's genius design was just a lucky accident (just like strafe jumping).


"Q: For Quake 2, q2dm1 is seen as the ultimate q2 tdm and 1v1 map.
Some believe its collection of jumps were preplanned -- such as the double jump to the top of the boxes and over to the megahealth. Others believe that this was a happy accident when the 3.15 patch provided changes in physics. So is it intelligent design, evolution or patch physics, or both?

Willits: I wish I could say it was all planned but it wasn't."

 

[DraQ]

Stalker was an outliner.

Every good game is an outlier.

Skyrim is far better RPG than Q2 was FPS and I'm talking vanilla here. Better FPS too, come to think of it..

Skyrim barely qualifies as an RPG (even Oblivion was less streamlined), it's a console hiking sim made in a Gamebryo engine.

Debatable.
Yes, Oblivion was less streamlined but it already managed to make most of its RPG systems redundant. It doesn't matter if you have more RPG mechanics if you're doing less with it.
Mechanics-wise Skyrim is streamlined on attribute end, in terms of number of skills and because it utterly lacks anything that could be called chargen. OTOH it's the first TES that let's you actually build your character incrementally instead of incrementally approaching the same maxed out ideal, and it's also the first to not feature certain pathologies that were deeply ingrained in TES systems (even though they only started taking the toll in oblivion) - I'm speaking of incentive to use playstyle opposite to your build.

Quake 2 has quite a number of faults (departure from the art design of the original, slow reacting enemies, bullet-spongy protagonist etc.) but its gunplay and level design alone elevate it far above Bethesda's post-Morrowind junk.

Neither gunplay, level design, nor combination of those two can alone carry an FPS, because both are subservient to FPS primary gameplay, running around and killing things. Whether or not Q2 had good gunplay doesn't matter given that there was no satisfactory targets to all this gunplay. By the same logic you might say that Oblivion was awesome because it had good bowplay - so fucking what if shooting this bow at anything other than, say bucket on a rope just plain fucking sucked?
As for level design, Quake 2 didn't even have that. It had some good layouts, mostly in the palace unit, but level design is more than that and in terms of aesthetics and environmental diversity it sucked. Plus, level design in an FPS is primarily there so that you can arrange interesting tactical situations and have pretty backgrounds. Q2 failed at #1 because enemies were slow, weak and dumb as sack of bricks, and failed at #2 because it was the same shit all over. Skyrim, even with it's linear dungeons sets up more interesting situations as it provides ample tactical advantages to enemies that are noticeably less pathetic even in vanilla, and it can be both pretty and quite diverse.

The movement in the game also felt clunky, like some shitty console shooter.

Really? Dishonored is the first game I can name where you weren't LARPing a box.

Unreal was diarrhea tho

URMOM.

Vanilla Quake 2 can look much better than it does in that video, from the looks of it that player enabled some fullbright faggotry.

Also, Edge is a great map, the original version that is:

Original Q1 sure had awesome movement dynamics.

Edge (Q3 version from the looks of it) was even ported to UT.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Every good game is an outlier.

Yeah but in the good days it seemed like every other game was a masterpiece.

 

[Astral Rag]

Edge was even ported to UT.

Sound good, sadly the one I found looks a little bit too Prosperian for my liking. Is there another, less amateuristic version out there?

 

[Astral Rag]

That's not the original.

Yeah of course, I worded that wrong, engrish is teh hard sometimes.

I already mentioned that Quake Arcade Edition version of The Edge in our Good Quake Maps thread. The version I was playing was unleashed on the internetz in early 1999.

 

[Venser]

I really like faster Q4 version of the edge with jump pad leading to rail instead of the water tunnel. Plus here's one of the greatest TDM matches in history with multiple overtimes.

 

[DraQ]

Edge was even ported to UT.

Sound good, sadly the one I found looks a little bit too Prosperian for my liking. Is there another, less amateuristic version out there?

I seem to have played this one:
http://www.lonebullet.com/maps/download-dm-edge-unreal-tournament-map-level-free-19188.htm
mind you - author seems to have taken more liberties with general design.
It played really well though, IIRC.

 

[Astral Rag]

Ah yes, now I remember. You've already recommended this map once before. It's a good, great-looking map indeed, but like you say, it's not a very faithful adaptation of the original. Also, it's very strange to see Q3 textures in UT.

 

[DraQ]

Yeah but in the good days it seemed like every other game was a masterpiece.

That's because you don't remember all the shit ones.
Also, it's much easier to make a classic at the advent of a genre, when you fill a niche without anything to compare yourself with, and with simple tech there is little room for potential mistakes just like there is little room for features.

I'm not arguing that there aren't some awful trends in the gaming industry - lack of ambition, dumbing down for mass appeal, removal of gameplay for the sake of aping the movies, all the "rational" game design techniques aiming at making a rather cerebral endavour of designing a good game brainless (and failing, but the damage gets done) - but the past is not nearly as glamorous as you remember it to be.

Ah yes, now I remember. You've already recommended this map once before. It's a good, great-looking map indeed, but like you say, it's not a very faithful adaptation of the original. Also, it's very strange to see Q3 textures in UT.

It's also somewhat overdone visually, but it's a nice map.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Debatable.
Yes, Oblivion was less streamlined but it already managed to make most of its RPG systems redundant. It doesn't matter if you have more RPG mechanics if you're doing less with it.
Mechanics-wise Skyrim is streamlined on attribute end, in terms of number of skills and because it utterly lacks anything that could be called chargen. OTOH it's the first TES that let's you actually build your character incrementally instead of incrementally approaching the same maxed out ideal...

Point taken regarding relatively specialized character builds instead of maxing every attribute/skill. However, removing layers of character customization still makes the game feel less of an RPG to me, or less of an CRPG anyway. Not to mention that from what I've seen, the system is still quite breakable/exploitable.

and it's also the first to not feature certain pathologies that were deeply ingrained in TES systems (even though they only started taking the toll in oblivion) - I'm speaking of incentive to use playstyle opposite to your build.

Right, but it still rewards grinding skills. The neccessary evil of TES skill advancement system I guess.

Neither gunplay, level design, nor combination of those two can alone carry an FPS, because both are subservient to FPS primary gameplay, running around and killing things.

Weapon feel, audio/visual feedback from shooting/hitting enemies and level design are FPS essentials, it's what modern genre offerings fail at spectacularly almost as a rule and why DOOM is still the king all these years later.

Whether or not Q2 had good gunplay doesn't matter given that there was no satisfactory targets to all this gunplay.

Of course gunplay matters, we're talking about the genre where your base gameplay is shooting at stuff.

Also, you heap praises at Dishonored because of gameplay elements you're enamored with like "great movement" when the "no satisfactory targets" applies doubly to that game considering you're a magic ninja assassin that can teleport, stop time and see through walls facing regular mooks that never look up, give up chase in moments and move in small groups, it's a cat and mouse situation if I ever saw one.

By the same logic you might say that Oblivion was awesome because it had good bowplay - so fucking what if shooting this bow at anything other than, say bucket on a rope just plain fucking sucked?

Bowplay is a superfluous gameplay element in Oblivion while gunplay is an essential gameplay element of any FPS, bad analogy. Are you gonna compare the mechanics of Quake's axe and Blood's pitchfork to Dark Messiah's melee combat system next?

As for level design, Quake 2 didn't even have that. It had some good layouts, mostly in the palace unit, but level design is more than that and in terms of aesthetics and environmental diversity it sucked.

Level layout is the most important element of level design, aesthetics and environmental diversity are welcome but still secondary. Quake 2 levels have a good geometry, consistent visual style/tone, involve a solid amount of backtracking and have a decent number of secrets to find.

Plus, level design in an FPS is primarily there so that you can arrange interesting tactical situations and have pretty backgrounds.

Quake 2 backgrounds are fine if you like the direction they went for. Tactical enemy positioning is important I agree and Quake 2 doesn't do good enough of a job there (and even when it tries, enemies aren't dangerous enough to pull it off).

Skyrim, even with it's linear dungeons sets up more interesting situations as it provides ample tactical advantages to enemies that are noticeably less pathetic even in vanilla, and it can be both pretty and quite diverse.

Do you have an example of ample tactical advantages? A linear cave remains a linear cave regardless of how pretty it looks, it still showcases lazy/boring level design.

Also, it's much easier to make a classic at the advent of a genre, when you fill a niche without anything to compare yourself with, and with simple tech there is little room for potential mistakes just like there is little room for features.

Still doesn't excuse modern genre offerings for being so inferior to pioneers like Doom, Quake and Build Engine games in every metric that counts. It's very clear a lot of know-how has been lost in the meantime and the complete shift of focus to consoles and mass market makes things even worse.

 

[Astral Rag]

 

[Caim]

Easy to guess who's the better gamer and who's having more fun.

 

[Ivan]

i don't know man, he is using the pistol.

 

[Space Insect]

It was nice of the D44M playing guy to wear headphones so the Doom player wouldn't have to hear the bad music.

 

[Caim]

i don't know man, he is using the pistol.

He's only got the pistol so far, of course he's using it.

 

[Venser]

Easy to guess who's the better gamer and who's having more fun.

The one who plays on WASD?

 

[Excidium II]

I wonder if he even rebound strafe keys.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Easy to guess who's the better gamer and who's having more fun.

Yeah, the white kid is the better player and is also having more fun.

Well ok, maybe not since obvious retro hipster, but that would have been the case if that pic was actually from the 90s.

 

[Excidium II]

Playing games in proper hardware is the correct way to enjoy them.

 

[Melcar]

The fuck is up with that PC case?

 

[pippin]

The fuck is up with that PC case?

alienware faggotry

 

[Darth Roxor]

Easy to guess who's the better gamer and who's having more fun.

The one who plays on WASD?

Real men play Doom with arrow keys and shoot with ctrl

 

[Excidium II]

that's why you die to chaingunners bruh

 

[Melcar]

Someone should bring beige back.