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Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Humanity has risen!
- Start date
And I thought Oblivion was bad.
behold_a_man
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2022
- Messages
- 221
So, I've finished the World of Xeen:
And to recap my impressions:
I: The things that both Darkside and Clouds shared:
1) Both had visual polish and a wonderous soundtrack oozing a sense of adventure. Almost every monster had its own distinct icon (even if it appeared once in the entire game - like the Dragon King in Clouds) and a silly posture it showed when it got hit. Almost every dungeon had some previously unseen graphical quirk or item. The intro to Clouds, along with its score, is a thing of beauty, and the ending cinematics (Crodo and Burlock watching the party whacking subsequent monsters) were very witty. Overall, I don't think I saw many games as good audiovisually as this one.
2) For the first time in the Might & Magic series, I was lacking resources at some point of the games; I was short of gems in the Clouds (until I hit the Castle Basenji and then the Northern Sphinx), and then I was unable to use my experience for level-ups in the late Darkside as I had practically no gold.
3) Seemingly, the primary purpose of combat is to pace the game rather than give the player any sort of challenge (unlike in the previous two titles, where the world was densely filled with encounters); given the simplistic nature of combat, it makes sense, even if it's not necessarily a good decision (I believe that, in general, the sluggishness of exploration can add up to the identity of a place - for better or worse).
4) The primitive character of some dungeons really ground my gears. All towers needed exactly four comically small levels before ascending into the clouds. Similarly, all castles looked pretty much the same, although there was always something interesting going on there, as six of seven of them were plot-related. The issue was exacerbated on the Darkside as each city had sewers (for what? They weren't even bad, but some of them felt forced). It doesn't seem like a big problem, but half of the dungeons were either towers or castles - and most of them were puzzle-free, contributing to their general blandness.
5) What I liked was individuating each city. They became fully fledged dungeons rather than hubs, with different sizes, utilities, and purposes. Also, with small cities becoming less cluttered (as there were no unnecessary buildings - like training / smith / temple) each city could contain (and did contain) some driving theme or quest - like ghosts in Winterkill, snake curse in Asp or the witches of Lakeside. Furthermore, those tended to be the best quests in the game.
6) Teleport spell felt needlessly handicapped. Almost always, when I wanted to use it, I was unable to. It's quite a decline, since it did add options and variability to exploration in the previous titles.
7) At last, I saw some locations devoid of combat (like Escape Pods, or higher levels of the Great Pyramid). I believe it was preferable to do them that way, as places without encounters can create a different atmosphere (especially with a proper score - like Escape Pods).
II: About Clouds of Xeen
1) The game is practically devoid of any puzzles. Even if there was anything to unravel (like passwords for Dwarven Mines or Castle Basenji), the answer was trivial to obtain (and oftentimes placed within auto-notes in a spoilery order). It removes one layer from the memorability of a dungeon (the others are structure, loot, and boosts in this case).
2) Side quests are bad. Pretty much each one of them (except for some city quests) boils down to finding some item / place or killing some monster. There was nothing as unpredictable or oddish as, say, Princess Trueberry's quest in Terra or Mark's keys in Gates. Rewards were mostly banal (except for spells - which were mostly useless and obtainable through guilds, if I'm not mistaken).
3) Dungeons did have distinctive features - like the watery Cave of Illusion that I could drain, Dragon Cave with, guess who, dragons (and also taxation), or Deep Mines with the bizarre teleport system and unpredictable structures.
4) The pacing of the early game felt botched: I rose to around 9th level very quickly (after Vertigo and some Deep Mines), until that time I barely encountered any traps, and by the time I saw them, I had all the spells allowing me to ignore them (like cure disease / poison, levitate, and, generalizing, Day of Sorcery+Protection).
5) It's the second game in the series where progression was built towards mostly lower level adventure (below 20). I felt it made the endgame way more concise than in some previous entries - subsequent levels made a visible difference while fighting with dragons or diamond golems.
III: About Darkside of Xeen
1) Puzzles did get better: the Drawkcab monks' quest, the Northern Tower goblet puzzle, or the chests in Castleview were all pretty entertaining (and I haven't seen them in any earlier entry). I don't think I ever saw before a puzzle, that can be brute-forced with a topological ordering of a graph (which is a case for chests in Castleview). What I didn't like were the criminally small rewards for solving any of them.
2) Solving side quests provided items not attainable in any other way, like entrances to cities or dungeons - which is a step up from before; nonetheless, most quests were just as uninspired as before.
3) I liked the idea of the Skyroad as an additional way of getting into places.
IV: The ending (add-on? everything after the showdown between Sheltem and Corak) is very bad and clearly unfinished:
1) Elemental planes are just as barren and futile as in the Gates to Another World.
2) It's the first time I encountered severe
in this series: the game was crashing if I scrolled low enough in Auto-notes, and the traps within the Southern Sphinx sometimes crashed the screen. Once I saw a Skeletal Lich, that couldn't get me as it was behind an invisible wall. To make matters worse, insect spray didn't work on them.
3) Almost all new monsters used the same icons as in the earlier games, and the new ones were not aesthetically spectacular, to put it bluntly. Some icons from Isles of Terra were re-used (for example, the throne and traps within the Southern Sphinx), rather than new ones - which is a surprise given the game's graphical polish and a disaster given the bugs they induced. There was no new part of the soundtrack.
4) Worst of all, the dungeons were almost universally uninspired or outright botched: the first floor of the Dungeon of Death was great, the third was passable, the Dragon Clouds were neat, and the rest was between bad and atrocious.
5) The only really interesting rewards at the end of the game could be stats, levels, and some resistances. Of course, almost all rewards (especially in the Dungeon of Death past the first floor) boiled down to experience (which was useless without huge amounts of money) and equipment (which was also pretty useless at that point).
In summary, it had no element that made (in my eyes) both Clouds and Darkside admirable, but it introduced a plethora of problems and bad content.
Overall, I think I preferred Isles of Terra to this one - World of Xeen improved upon the production values but was a downgrade in terms of puzzles, quests, and general exploration. Also, the game took a nosedive at the very end.
And to recap my impressions:
I: The things that both Darkside and Clouds shared:
1) Both had visual polish and a wonderous soundtrack oozing a sense of adventure. Almost every monster had its own distinct icon (even if it appeared once in the entire game - like the Dragon King in Clouds) and a silly posture it showed when it got hit. Almost every dungeon had some previously unseen graphical quirk or item. The intro to Clouds, along with its score, is a thing of beauty, and the ending cinematics (Crodo and Burlock watching the party whacking subsequent monsters) were very witty. Overall, I don't think I saw many games as good audiovisually as this one.
2) For the first time in the Might & Magic series, I was lacking resources at some point of the games; I was short of gems in the Clouds (until I hit the Castle Basenji and then the Northern Sphinx), and then I was unable to use my experience for level-ups in the late Darkside as I had practically no gold.
3) Seemingly, the primary purpose of combat is to pace the game rather than give the player any sort of challenge (unlike in the previous two titles, where the world was densely filled with encounters); given the simplistic nature of combat, it makes sense, even if it's not necessarily a good decision (I believe that, in general, the sluggishness of exploration can add up to the identity of a place - for better or worse).
4) The primitive character of some dungeons really ground my gears. All towers needed exactly four comically small levels before ascending into the clouds. Similarly, all castles looked pretty much the same, although there was always something interesting going on there, as six of seven of them were plot-related. The issue was exacerbated on the Darkside as each city had sewers (for what? They weren't even bad, but some of them felt forced). It doesn't seem like a big problem, but half of the dungeons were either towers or castles - and most of them were puzzle-free, contributing to their general blandness.
5) What I liked was individuating each city. They became fully fledged dungeons rather than hubs, with different sizes, utilities, and purposes. Also, with small cities becoming less cluttered (as there were no unnecessary buildings - like training / smith / temple) each city could contain (and did contain) some driving theme or quest - like ghosts in Winterkill, snake curse in Asp or the witches of Lakeside. Furthermore, those tended to be the best quests in the game.
6) Teleport spell felt needlessly handicapped. Almost always, when I wanted to use it, I was unable to. It's quite a decline, since it did add options and variability to exploration in the previous titles.
7) At last, I saw some locations devoid of combat (like Escape Pods, or higher levels of the Great Pyramid). I believe it was preferable to do them that way, as places without encounters can create a different atmosphere (especially with a proper score - like Escape Pods).
II: About Clouds of Xeen
1) The game is practically devoid of any puzzles. Even if there was anything to unravel (like passwords for Dwarven Mines or Castle Basenji), the answer was trivial to obtain (and oftentimes placed within auto-notes in a spoilery order). It removes one layer from the memorability of a dungeon (the others are structure, loot, and boosts in this case).
2) Side quests are bad. Pretty much each one of them (except for some city quests) boils down to finding some item / place or killing some monster. There was nothing as unpredictable or oddish as, say, Princess Trueberry's quest in Terra or Mark's keys in Gates. Rewards were mostly banal (except for spells - which were mostly useless and obtainable through guilds, if I'm not mistaken).
3) Dungeons did have distinctive features - like the watery Cave of Illusion that I could drain, Dragon Cave with, guess who, dragons (and also taxation), or Deep Mines with the bizarre teleport system and unpredictable structures.
4) The pacing of the early game felt botched: I rose to around 9th level very quickly (after Vertigo and some Deep Mines), until that time I barely encountered any traps, and by the time I saw them, I had all the spells allowing me to ignore them (like cure disease / poison, levitate, and, generalizing, Day of Sorcery+Protection).
5) It's the second game in the series where progression was built towards mostly lower level adventure (below 20). I felt it made the endgame way more concise than in some previous entries - subsequent levels made a visible difference while fighting with dragons or diamond golems.
III: About Darkside of Xeen
1) Puzzles did get better: the Drawkcab monks' quest, the Northern Tower goblet puzzle, or the chests in Castleview were all pretty entertaining (and I haven't seen them in any earlier entry). I don't think I ever saw before a puzzle, that can be brute-forced with a topological ordering of a graph (which is a case for chests in Castleview). What I didn't like were the criminally small rewards for solving any of them.
2) Solving side quests provided items not attainable in any other way, like entrances to cities or dungeons - which is a step up from before; nonetheless, most quests were just as uninspired as before.
3) I liked the idea of the Skyroad as an additional way of getting into places.
IV: The ending (add-on? everything after the showdown between Sheltem and Corak) is very bad and clearly unfinished:
1) Elemental planes are just as barren and futile as in the Gates to Another World.
2) It's the first time I encountered severe
3) Almost all new monsters used the same icons as in the earlier games, and the new ones were not aesthetically spectacular, to put it bluntly. Some icons from Isles of Terra were re-used (for example, the throne and traps within the Southern Sphinx), rather than new ones - which is a surprise given the game's graphical polish and a disaster given the bugs they induced. There was no new part of the soundtrack.
4) Worst of all, the dungeons were almost universally uninspired or outright botched: the first floor of the Dungeon of Death was great, the third was passable, the Dragon Clouds were neat, and the rest was between bad and atrocious.
5) The only really interesting rewards at the end of the game could be stats, levels, and some resistances. Of course, almost all rewards (especially in the Dungeon of Death past the first floor) boiled down to experience (which was useless without huge amounts of money) and equipment (which was also pretty useless at that point).
In summary, it had no element that made (in my eyes) both Clouds and Darkside admirable, but it introduced a plethora of problems and bad content.
Overall, I think I preferred Isles of Terra to this one - World of Xeen improved upon the production values but was a downgrade in terms of puzzles, quests, and general exploration. Also, the game took a nosedive at the very end.
catfood
AGAIN
Great game. 10/10
Kayato
Literate
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2023
- Messages
- 27
Finished MM2 yesterday, honestly I preferred MM1 in many aspects (I've never played MM and I'm playing them all in order).
it is undeniable that they have made progress both in terms of graphics, animations, functions and QoL, but I found the world blander and the quest less compelling.
Visually great improvements (I'm playing the GOG versions, I imagine they are the IBM-DOS ones) more colors, more details, animations, day and night cycle and NPCs! However, stairs, entrances to dungeons continue to be missing and above all I often missed them because I was in the correct square but I was looking from the wrong side!
Not having to select the party every time I start the game and the better party management were welcome additions! Also the spellbook and other functions in overlay.
Things I didn't like:
The world, unfortunately I'm not a big fan of the "4 elements", perhaps because I've already played too many games with this theme, but I understand that at the time it was still a "novelty". Then there are choices they made that in my opinion ruined the exploration of the world. Making all 5 cities accessible and easily accessible immediately took away a bit of that sense of exploration that is in "reaching the next city" as a next step to improve the party and also a purpose for exploring the world. Before exploring the world I already had my party with 2 hirelings with all +4 gear and all secondary skills!
This is another "mistake" (again IMHO) giving immediate access to all the skills, being able to immediately cross all the mountains and forests (and almost immediately even the waters) made all the external maps bland and anonymous as if they were gigantic car parks with some events every now and then. Only if the PC with that ability died was I forced to follow the established paths of the terrain. The "elemental barriers" were also a disappointment: I thought I wouldn't be able to cross them immediately or find great challenges beyond... but not really.
Instead, the river that crosses various maps and the "cruise" were small details that I appreciated.
Talking about Quest in MM1 I had understood what the main quest was (even without any introductory plot) and I had a sense of progression since I was (almost) always told what to do next. In this I couldn't distinguish between main and side quests! I thought the quests for each class were "extras" to obtain some specific high-level item, a bit like those dungeons that didn't allow access to certain classes!
This also reminds me of all the enemy "sex" resistances and areas off-limits to classes or races, really annoying.
Speaking of the Hirelings, they are a novelty that I appreciated, I used Barbarian and Ninja to try all the classes but for a second game I would definitely use 2 spellcasters. Furthermore, I would have gathered them first in the same city and used them as a "wardrobe" for all those "useful but not immediately" objects to keep aside! From a certain point of view I appreciate the inventiveness behind the mechanics to obtain Elemental Orb, but on the other hand I imagine the great frustration at the time! But I have to admit that it amused me!
-The Orb won't let us leave the cave!
-Hey you, take the Orb and go away! We don't want you anymore!
-Mkay...
(shortly afterwards at the inn)
-Hey you, do you still have the Orb?
-Yep
-Do you want to come back to the adventure with us?
-Mkay
Good and now it's time for 3! Do PCs still matter? Some advice?
Ah, I forgot, I really appreciate the monsters, I took screenshots of all the models for the first (I think) for the second, can they be found somewhere in everyone's .gif or can they be extracted somehow?
it is undeniable that they have made progress both in terms of graphics, animations, functions and QoL, but I found the world blander and the quest less compelling.
Visually great improvements (I'm playing the GOG versions, I imagine they are the IBM-DOS ones) more colors, more details, animations, day and night cycle and NPCs! However, stairs, entrances to dungeons continue to be missing and above all I often missed them because I was in the correct square but I was looking from the wrong side!
Not having to select the party every time I start the game and the better party management were welcome additions! Also the spellbook and other functions in overlay.
Things I didn't like:
The world, unfortunately I'm not a big fan of the "4 elements", perhaps because I've already played too many games with this theme, but I understand that at the time it was still a "novelty". Then there are choices they made that in my opinion ruined the exploration of the world. Making all 5 cities accessible and easily accessible immediately took away a bit of that sense of exploration that is in "reaching the next city" as a next step to improve the party and also a purpose for exploring the world. Before exploring the world I already had my party with 2 hirelings with all +4 gear and all secondary skills!
This is another "mistake" (again IMHO) giving immediate access to all the skills, being able to immediately cross all the mountains and forests (and almost immediately even the waters) made all the external maps bland and anonymous as if they were gigantic car parks with some events every now and then. Only if the PC with that ability died was I forced to follow the established paths of the terrain. The "elemental barriers" were also a disappointment: I thought I wouldn't be able to cross them immediately or find great challenges beyond... but not really.
Instead, the river that crosses various maps and the "cruise" were small details that I appreciated.
Talking about Quest in MM1 I had understood what the main quest was (even without any introductory plot) and I had a sense of progression since I was (almost) always told what to do next. In this I couldn't distinguish between main and side quests! I thought the quests for each class were "extras" to obtain some specific high-level item, a bit like those dungeons that didn't allow access to certain classes!
This also reminds me of all the enemy "sex" resistances and areas off-limits to classes or races, really annoying.
Speaking of the Hirelings, they are a novelty that I appreciated, I used Barbarian and Ninja to try all the classes but for a second game I would definitely use 2 spellcasters. Furthermore, I would have gathered them first in the same city and used them as a "wardrobe" for all those "useful but not immediately" objects to keep aside! From a certain point of view I appreciate the inventiveness behind the mechanics to obtain Elemental Orb, but on the other hand I imagine the great frustration at the time! But I have to admit that it amused me!
-The Orb won't let us leave the cave!
-Hey you, take the Orb and go away! We don't want you anymore!
-Mkay...
(shortly afterwards at the inn)
-Hey you, do you still have the Orb?
-Yep
-Do you want to come back to the adventure with us?
-Mkay
Good and now it's time for 3! Do PCs still matter? Some advice?
Ah, I forgot, I really appreciate the monsters, I took screenshots of all the models for the first (I think) for the second, can they be found somewhere in everyone's .gif or can they be extracted somehow?
behold_a_man
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2022
- Messages
- 221
YOLO, it's very hard to screw yourself over with the party composition here.
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote except this:
It was possible to figure it out:
1) Lamanda says:
2) On the mount Fairview there was a remark:
Which explains the 'Plus'.
3) Below Middlegate there was a remark:
"Win the Blackest battles and you are halfway to an audience with Queen Lamanda."
So the "Triple crown" is related to some 'Blackest battles'. And below Atlantium:
"Buy tickets to the Arena, the Monster Bowl and the Colosseum at your local blacksmith. Hurry, limited time offer."
"Buy a key from a locksmith and win battle of the same color in each forum. Go then to the castles and find a bishop of that key color's battle."
Which should indicate, what needs to be done (there was probably a more precise note about it in some cave, but I can't find it).
4) And if not for that, red notes give us everything we need:
To right ancient wrongs, the solution is very long. The Triple Crown must first be done, with Arena, Monster Bowl and Colosseum to be won. Next, the party must split individually so that each may fulfill their personal destiny. Request an audience with the Queen so the Chosen One can be seen. Travel through time with Talons and Orb. Save the dead King from destruction and get the password. Then visit the lake geometrics to find passage to that which you must hurriedly fix. JVC
So there are at least two ways to get the necessary information.
2) On the mount Fairview there was a remark:
Which explains the 'Plus'.
3) Below Middlegate there was a remark:
"Win the Blackest battles and you are halfway to an audience with Queen Lamanda."
So the "Triple crown" is related to some 'Blackest battles'. And below Atlantium:
"Buy tickets to the Arena, the Monster Bowl and the Colosseum at your local blacksmith. Hurry, limited time offer."
"Buy a key from a locksmith and win battle of the same color in each forum. Go then to the castles and find a bishop of that key color's battle."
Which should indicate, what needs to be done (there was probably a more precise note about it in some cave, but I can't find it).
4) And if not for that, red notes give us everything we need:
To right ancient wrongs, the solution is very long. The Triple Crown must first be done, with Arena, Monster Bowl and Colosseum to be won. Next, the party must split individually so that each may fulfill their personal destiny. Request an audience with the Queen so the Chosen One can be seen. Travel through time with Talons and Orb. Save the dead King from destruction and get the password. Then visit the lake geometrics to find passage to that which you must hurriedly fix. JVC
So there are at least two ways to get the necessary information.
I preferred the quest to be more cryptic, it was one of the more entertaining challenges of this game. Also, it justified keeping spatial information along with screenshots from the game - in the end, it wasn't hard for me to figure everything out when I had all the data tied to the places where I saw them.
Kayato
Literate
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2023
- Messages
- 27
Let me explain a little better about the quests:
The messages in the red notes clarify everything but they were among the last things I found! What I meant was that the queen's quest I thought was a side quest like that of the other rulers in the other castles, given that in MM1 you only got repeatable quests in the castles and having also found similar quests in MM2 in two castles I thought this one was similar too , perhaps more complex but similar. Of course I should have paid more attention to the fact that Corak's assistant was in the previous room.
Baron Tahn
Scholar
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2018
- Messages
- 668
So im thing about doing a full MM replay from 3-8. Ill be using the mmmerge mod for the later titles but wanted to ask:
Is there any mods or similar tweaks for 3-5 that make the UI/inventory/buy/sell/repair/spellbook screens easier? Im sort of dreading it. I think last time I was just using the hotkeys. Trying to give other party members items and so on was tedious as fuck. As I remember it didnt have mouse support or am I just retarded? Something about it took forever iirc.
Is there any mods or similar tweaks for 3-5 that make the UI/inventory/buy/sell/repair/spellbook screens easier? Im sort of dreading it. I think last time I was just using the hotkeys. Trying to give other party members items and so on was tedious as fuck. As I remember it didnt have mouse support or am I just retarded? Something about it took forever iirc.
UndeadHalfOrc
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2023
- Messages
- 117
I think the interface is just fine. I can play it easily using just the mouse, or just the keyboard (keyboard is better).
There is a hot key for litterally everything. Inside a character's inventory, just type "2" to select the second item you see, then "F3" to give it to the 3rd character.
The only tedious thing was in MM3 where weapons, armor and accessories shared the same space, fixed in MM4-5
For spell lists, once you have several pages worth of spells, just use page up/page down to quickly browse, and use the number 0-9 to select it.
The only M&M games without mouse support are the first two games.
There is a hot key for litterally everything. Inside a character's inventory, just type "2" to select the second item you see, then "F3" to give it to the 3rd character.
The only tedious thing was in MM3 where weapons, armor and accessories shared the same space, fixed in MM4-5
For spell lists, once you have several pages worth of spells, just use page up/page down to quickly browse, and use the number 0-9 to select it.
The only M&M games without mouse support are the first two games.
Kayato
Literate
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2023
- Messages
- 27
I'll go back to talking about MM2 for a moment, I wanted to understand if I had found a couple of bugs or not.
-At the end of the game when I meet Sheltem instead of dialogue I have "Version 1.01" repeated four times.
-To complete Lord Peabody's quest to find his son I had to temporarily remove one of my hirelings (the ninja). I later managed to get + for all classes except ninja, despite activating the Murray quest and assassinating Dawn. I wonder if it could be linked to the fact that the ninja didn't complete Lord Peabody's quest, is it possible?
-Finally, to continue with the main quest when I talked to the queen I had to remove the ninja again as he was the only character without a +, so I wonder could I have gotten the + with just one class and just sent that character to talk to the queen?
Out of curiosity, how was MM2 received at the time by fans and the press? Have any criticisms like mine been raised?
-At the end of the game when I meet Sheltem instead of dialogue I have "Version 1.01" repeated four times.
-To complete Lord Peabody's quest to find his son I had to temporarily remove one of my hirelings (the ninja). I later managed to get + for all classes except ninja, despite activating the Murray quest and assassinating Dawn. I wonder if it could be linked to the fact that the ninja didn't complete Lord Peabody's quest, is it possible?
-Finally, to continue with the main quest when I talked to the queen I had to remove the ninja again as he was the only character without a +, so I wonder could I have gotten the + with just one class and just sent that character to talk to the queen?
Out of curiosity, how was MM2 received at the time by fans and the press? Have any criticisms like mine been raised?
UndeadHalfOrc
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2023
- Messages
- 117
I think to complete peabody's quest you need to bring his son with you in your party (he's a paladin.... forgot his name)
For the queen's quests, you need every character promoted, and every character present during the "blackest battles". If not, leave them out temporarily before you speak to the queen, no big deal, you can still get the final quest from the queen and hire them back.
For the queen's quests, you need every character promoted, and every character present during the "blackest battles". If not, leave them out temporarily before you speak to the queen, no big deal, you can still get the final quest from the queen and hire them back.
UndeadHalfOrc
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2023
- Messages
- 117
Here is my long-ass post on gog.com when I completed MM2 for the first time, only a year ago, before I joined rpgcodex
My party was created from scratch. Used the 6 old default classes, plus 2 hirelings of the new classes (Barb and Ninja.).
The hires were not that expensive, and since they didn't need spell points I only needed to pay them when I needed to rest in a wild area outside of a city, or inside a dungeon... otherwise I dismiss them to the inn. Healing them in temple is free.
The hirelings level far slower than regular characters. My regular were Lv75, but they finished the game at Lv59.
They cap their fee at 50000 gold, and once you're really powerful, 50K is pocket change.
I first tentatively "completed" the Square Lake dungeon at level 50,but since I thought I needed to defeat the 66 devil kings, I fought them and had to escape. So, I grinded up to Lev 75. Grinding to lv75 was actually quite fast (ancient dragon and Cat from Hell work best), it was enchanting all my equipment to level 28 that was a bore.
- To beat the (optional!) 66 devil kings, I used 1 max HP potion for each char, and 1 skill potion for each char (2 for my hirelings)
Once in battle, Power Shield, multiple castings of Heroism, and Holy bonus (200+).
My characters all had good AC so they traded places a lot , so once they all lowered to very low HP, and about half the devils were killed, my cleric cast Divine Intervention. Only works once per fight.
My Sorcerer was useless after he cast Power Shield, devil kings resisted all my offensive spells, so he ended up in the front row many times.
I barely made it through, I was out of MP and all chars were very low HP at the end of the fight. WHEW!
Power Shield = best spell in the game. Reduces ALL DAMAGE, of any kind, by half.
--------My random observations-----
- That one Jester character that gives you HP according to your endurance was done ASAP, ... yes you need 1 million on each character, but he didn't actually take the money. Didn't work on hirelings since they don't carry gold.
- That one time 1000HP from Dragon Dominion was a must, of course. The Ancient Dragon was a complete pushover with the help of Power Shield and my enchanted silver armor/helms/shields. My sorcerer was lucky to have found an Energy Whip for energy protection.
- Don't waste your time with the meager HP bonuses of the various castles that exclude races... use the one in Dragon Dominion that gives 25HP one time per dungeon visit instead, no restrictions on moon phases/races! The only required fight is one lone armored dragon and he ain't that tough.
- Unless you wanna beat the game on year 1, don't waste too much time with the hard to reach +10 stat boosts of the various dungeons that limit to 59... wait instead for day 140 to abuse the Circus, since it goes up to 100, no fights whatsoever, only need teleport and lloyd's beacon (that you place right at the well). Fly to B2, Fly to D3, 2 teleports to old man, lloyd beacon to E3's well, rinse and repeat.
Then, the next year, the way to go about it smartly is to use stat trades wells (+3 / -5) in castles repeatedly RIGHT BEFORE day 140, then use the circus again to quickly raise those lowered stats back to 100. Easy, effective.
Speaking of castle stat trades wells: they can be used as many times as you want per visit, no need to even leave the castle. Don't be greedy though, end game equipment can already boost many stats by 50+ points.
- Archers seem to have an innate, undocumented, hidden damage bonus with bows. She always outdamaged my Knight (when he was in the back row) and they both had Ancient Bows, even though the knight gets more attacks per round!
- Ninja's special attack, "critical", seems to works identically to the thief's "backstab", except it's 4x damage instead of 2x. It does not "assassinate" ie instant death. It works more than one time per fight, not necessarily at the first attack like the manual says. Still, 2000 dmg on a devil king was nice.
- Around level 30, there ceased to be any exp requirement difference between the Knight/Cleric/Thief and Paladin/Archer/Sorcerer. The real level gap developing was between my 6 chars and the hirelings.
Thanks for reading. I had fun!
My party was created from scratch. Used the 6 old default classes, plus 2 hirelings of the new classes (Barb and Ninja.).
The hires were not that expensive, and since they didn't need spell points I only needed to pay them when I needed to rest in a wild area outside of a city, or inside a dungeon... otherwise I dismiss them to the inn. Healing them in temple is free.
The hirelings level far slower than regular characters. My regular were Lv75, but they finished the game at Lv59.
They cap their fee at 50000 gold, and once you're really powerful, 50K is pocket change.
I first tentatively "completed" the Square Lake dungeon at level 50,but since I thought I needed to defeat the 66 devil kings, I fought them and had to escape. So, I grinded up to Lev 75. Grinding to lv75 was actually quite fast (ancient dragon and Cat from Hell work best), it was enchanting all my equipment to level 28 that was a bore.
- To beat the (optional!) 66 devil kings, I used 1 max HP potion for each char, and 1 skill potion for each char (2 for my hirelings)
Once in battle, Power Shield, multiple castings of Heroism, and Holy bonus (200+).
My characters all had good AC so they traded places a lot , so once they all lowered to very low HP, and about half the devils were killed, my cleric cast Divine Intervention. Only works once per fight.
My Sorcerer was useless after he cast Power Shield, devil kings resisted all my offensive spells, so he ended up in the front row many times.
I barely made it through, I was out of MP and all chars were very low HP at the end of the fight. WHEW!
Power Shield = best spell in the game. Reduces ALL DAMAGE, of any kind, by half.
--------My random observations-----
- That one Jester character that gives you HP according to your endurance was done ASAP, ... yes you need 1 million on each character, but he didn't actually take the money. Didn't work on hirelings since they don't carry gold.
- That one time 1000HP from Dragon Dominion was a must, of course. The Ancient Dragon was a complete pushover with the help of Power Shield and my enchanted silver armor/helms/shields. My sorcerer was lucky to have found an Energy Whip for energy protection.
- Don't waste your time with the meager HP bonuses of the various castles that exclude races... use the one in Dragon Dominion that gives 25HP one time per dungeon visit instead, no restrictions on moon phases/races! The only required fight is one lone armored dragon and he ain't that tough.
- Unless you wanna beat the game on year 1, don't waste too much time with the hard to reach +10 stat boosts of the various dungeons that limit to 59... wait instead for day 140 to abuse the Circus, since it goes up to 100, no fights whatsoever, only need teleport and lloyd's beacon (that you place right at the well). Fly to B2, Fly to D3, 2 teleports to old man, lloyd beacon to E3's well, rinse and repeat.
Then, the next year, the way to go about it smartly is to use stat trades wells (+3 / -5) in castles repeatedly RIGHT BEFORE day 140, then use the circus again to quickly raise those lowered stats back to 100. Easy, effective.
Speaking of castle stat trades wells: they can be used as many times as you want per visit, no need to even leave the castle. Don't be greedy though, end game equipment can already boost many stats by 50+ points.
- Archers seem to have an innate, undocumented, hidden damage bonus with bows. She always outdamaged my Knight (when he was in the back row) and they both had Ancient Bows, even though the knight gets more attacks per round!
- Ninja's special attack, "critical", seems to works identically to the thief's "backstab", except it's 4x damage instead of 2x. It does not "assassinate" ie instant death. It works more than one time per fight, not necessarily at the first attack like the manual says. Still, 2000 dmg on a devil king was nice.
- Around level 30, there ceased to be any exp requirement difference between the Knight/Cleric/Thief and Paladin/Archer/Sorcerer. The real level gap developing was between my 6 chars and the hirelings.
Thanks for reading. I had fun!
UndeadHalfOrc
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2023
- Messages
- 117
Here is my long-ass post on gog.com when I completed MM3 for the first time, only 6 months ago, just before I started posting on rpgcodex
Hi again,
Finally finished my MM3 playthrough !
It was fun. More fun than MM2 but also way easier.
Postmortem comments:
- In the final map, the optional room with many Terminators reminded me of the
Super Goober room in MM6. (Obviously MM6 took from MM3)
They are even more more dangerous than in MM6, as they are immune to physical damage!
- The AI lady's face in the ship's computer is almost identical to the Fountains' 4 Heads
you find in Fountain Head! Intentional?
Unsolved stuff:
- What is up to the well in the desert asking me what do I wish for? No matter what I say, it tells me
"Maybe your wish will come true!"
- Are Creators supposed to be Kreegan?
MM7 spoiler: : No wonder you don't get to fight anyone from the MM3 main party members and only one of the 2
hirelings from the first tavern, and no wonder Kastore so easily overpowered Archibald:
My party members were gods at level 116, far beyond any party I ever had in MM2-6-7-8.
- To reduce my fighters effectiveness I ended up downgrading all my diamond items to sapphire, and
Obsidian items to diamond, except for 1 obsidian long bow for my knight (and archer had I had one)
With my MM3 UGE module it was pretty quick to do, too.
I intend to do the same in Xeen.
- I did not use any of the many +5 levels wells/cups. Only the +2 ones
- It took me until nearly the end of the game to realize that "group" spells such as Fireball and Lightning bolt
only target up to 3 enemies, while "Cone" spells such as Dragon Breath target everything in front of you.
- Before tackling the last dungeons, Maze from Hell and the last pyramid, I had 40 million gold and was convinced
I would never have to worry about gold again. Well, by the end at level 116 i had burned through most of it and probably
would not have been able to continue training.
Onward to World of Xeen!
Since I constantly hear gold become scarce later on in that game, I intend to be the most avid and greedy penny pincher to have ever set foot on Xeen.
Hi again,
Finally finished my MM3 playthrough !
It was fun. More fun than MM2 but also way easier.
Postmortem comments:
- In the final map, the optional room with many Terminators reminded me of the
Super Goober room in MM6. (Obviously MM6 took from MM3)
They are even more more dangerous than in MM6, as they are immune to physical damage!
- The AI lady's face in the ship's computer is almost identical to the Fountains' 4 Heads
you find in Fountain Head! Intentional?
Unsolved stuff:
- What is up to the well in the desert asking me what do I wish for? No matter what I say, it tells me
"Maybe your wish will come true!"
- Are Creators supposed to be Kreegan?
MM7 spoiler: : No wonder you don't get to fight anyone from the MM3 main party members and only one of the 2
hirelings from the first tavern, and no wonder Kastore so easily overpowered Archibald:
My party members were gods at level 116, far beyond any party I ever had in MM2-6-7-8.
- To reduce my fighters effectiveness I ended up downgrading all my diamond items to sapphire, and
Obsidian items to diamond, except for 1 obsidian long bow for my knight (and archer had I had one)
With my MM3 UGE module it was pretty quick to do, too.
I intend to do the same in Xeen.
- I did not use any of the many +5 levels wells/cups. Only the +2 ones
- It took me until nearly the end of the game to realize that "group" spells such as Fireball and Lightning bolt
only target up to 3 enemies, while "Cone" spells such as Dragon Breath target everything in front of you.
- Before tackling the last dungeons, Maze from Hell and the last pyramid, I had 40 million gold and was convinced
I would never have to worry about gold again. Well, by the end at level 116 i had burned through most of it and probably
would not have been able to continue training.
Onward to World of Xeen!
Since I constantly hear gold become scarce later on in that game, I intend to be the most avid and greedy penny pincher to have ever set foot on Xeen.
Average Manatee
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2012
- Messages
- 15,254
It does, but only because your eventual levels surpass even MM3. I ran out of gold and just focused on leveling my ninja (I had items to cast buffs with her, so they fully scaled along with her attacks, not much else matters). She got to 255 while everyone else was stuck around level 80. Saving money early on won't work because the scale of what you need and get by adventuring goes up exponentially in Darkside and later on. If you really wanted to max level you'd need to stop around level 40 or 50 or something, get all the money available, then put it in the bank for years.
Rest of the party has around 180,000,000 XP, not sure what level they could theoretically get to if I had infinite gold, might be 255. 0 gold in bank. Gems are not an issue, I ended with another 50k in bank.
UndeadHalfOrc
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2023
- Messages
- 117
Since I wrote that MM3 post back in september on GOG, I completed MM4, at lev 19, almost 2 million gold in the bank,characters are 22 years old.
Now I'm in MM5, lev21, and explored the entire SW quarter of the Darkside.
I do not intend to level to 255, only level as much to be strong enough to beat every enemy in the game including the super bosses, and still have money left over to complete every quest . I know there is one World of Xeen post-game dungeon that needs lots of gold.... I already kinda spoiled myself by watching a playthrough a while ago.
I do intend very shortly to farm the gems mines to sell ruby/emerald/sapphire/diamond plate armor. (Yes, I save scum... a lot)
Now I'm in MM5, lev21, and explored the entire SW quarter of the Darkside.
I do not intend to level to 255, only level as much to be strong enough to beat every enemy in the game including the super bosses, and still have money left over to complete every quest . I know there is one World of Xeen post-game dungeon that needs lots of gold.... I already kinda spoiled myself by watching a playthrough a while ago.
I do intend very shortly to farm the gems mines to sell ruby/emerald/sapphire/diamond plate armor. (Yes, I save scum... a lot)
TheDeveloperDude
MagicScreen Games
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2012
- Messages
- 611
Level 0 solo peasant knight game (MM6)
"Rules: simple - finish the game with all possible means, don't use the other characters, don't train and start the game with all stats nulled to 0.
Party consists of a lonely knight named Killer who for some reason is dumb enough to understand that a party and training would help him to save the world. Oh, those heroes."
"Rules: simple - finish the game with all possible means, don't use the other characters, don't train and start the game with all stats nulled to 0.
Party consists of a lonely knight named Killer who for some reason is dumb enough to understand that a party and training would help him to save the world. Oh, those heroes."
UndeadHalfOrc
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2023
- Messages
- 117
So basically, you're playing a game of King's Quest V set in the MM6 universe. Gotcha.
TheDeveloperDude
MagicScreen Games
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2012
- Messages
- 611
Now I began M&M Base Merge using a solo necromancer. Started in Jadame M&M8.
I recruited 4 beggar NPCs. They are good for nothing, but great company.
This is the true roleplaying.
I recruited 4 beggar NPCs. They are good for nothing, but great company.
This is the true roleplaying.
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
Good luck even if you wanted to. I think in my most money-farmed and optimized run I made it as high as level 215 before I was broke.
Average Manatee
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2012
- Messages
- 15,254
Exponential growth through the power of bank interest should do it. Might need to make some kind of macro to rest a few years.
KeighnMcDeath
RPG Codex Boomer
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2016
- Messages
- 15,420
Yep, that bank will crank out the interest. USE IT IMMEDIATELY!
I used it because I was pretty familiar with the nasty bank system in Alternate Reality: The city. That game had a horrible tendency to have some horrid financial uproar where it would wipe your bank clean. A fucking terrible thing. In comparison, the MM banks are BOSS.
I used it because I was pretty familiar with the nasty bank system in Alternate Reality: The city. That game had a horrible tendency to have some horrid financial uproar where it would wipe your bank clean. A fucking terrible thing. In comparison, the MM banks are BOSS.
UndeadHalfOrc
Educated
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2023
- Messages
- 117
Yep, bank interest is the reason that is my immediate plan (level 22, age 22, only recently reached the 2nd town of Darkside) is to farm the gem mines ASAP and sell lots of plate armor and deposit the cash to reach 10+ million gold right away. I want to create lots of interest while I'm actually playing Darkside and don't want to wait until my characters are 30 years old to get super wealthy. As soon as I clear out Sandcaster and a few of the Towers, I'll visit the gemstone mines.
I have read that when I reach Sandro the lich I can kill him over and over for lots of gems for trading with the armor makers.
We will see if all my work pays off late game. I wanna reach level 160 at least, before my characters reach age 36 and still have plenty of gold to do all the late game quests.
I have read that when I reach Sandro the lich I can kill him over and over for lots of gems for trading with the armor makers.
We will see if all my work pays off late game. I wanna reach level 160 at least, before my characters reach age 36 and still have plenty of gold to do all the late game quests.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2015
- Messages
- 13,164
its this time of the year again, now doing mm6 solo druid.
Cleared new sorpigal, now im going slowly through castle ironfist and I just must know. Why is my reputation negative? No npc was harmed by me. I was already negative in new sorpigal, then went to mist and killed some enemies inside town, then to castle ironfist. Killed some enemies towards baal temple and I did notice that im at -200.
Again, not a big deal but im curious. Is it about fighting in town people vicinity?
Cleared new sorpigal, now im going slowly through castle ironfist and I just must know. Why is my reputation negative? No npc was harmed by me. I was already negative in new sorpigal, then went to mist and killed some enemies inside town, then to castle ironfist. Killed some enemies towards baal temple and I did notice that im at -200.
Again, not a big deal but im curious. Is it about fighting in town people vicinity?
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