Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[jackofshadows]

prefer if a master of fire magic throwing a meteor rain into a bunch of goblins will gonna kill that goblins and if a devil with mastery over fire magic could do the same with my party.

Well, mmx has plenty of that. Max out focus for casters and they'll obliterate any given number of goblins in 1 go and some bosses are able to easily one-shot your party as well. You must have some strange prejudice towards mmx based on something else.

 

[T. Reich]

sssd will clear out the absolute fuck out of everything with sparks in melee range and fireballs at distance, both spells being insanely mana-cost-effective if used correctly.

Why do people *always* dismiss the issue of damage-time-effectiveness? This is arguably much more important than mana-cost-effectiveness, especially if facing hard-hitting opponents who you want to dispose of ASAP. In those cases Shrapmetal is love, Shrapmetal is life.

In fact, going light is stronger than going dake here - you already have all the magical offensive power you need, and light gives you the insane defense that your spellcasters normally lack.

Well, fair enough. But the light path is ewww.

May I introduce you to the concept of recovery time?
Which sparks, being a low-level spell, has very, VERY little of.
Then there's such thing as hit recovery, which enemies also have.
When you combine very fast spell with a lot of projectiles that deal tons of damage, from at least 3 casters, on auto cast, what you get is near-perma-stunned mobs (the ones that survive for longer than a second, anyway).

 

[T. Reich]

Would you really prefer if all the mobs die almost instantly?

I prefer if a master of fire magic throwing a meteor rain into a bunch of goblins will gonna kill that goblins and if a devil with mastery over fire magic could do the same with my party.

Dragon's Dogma, I love that game in HARD mode exactly cuz I need to be cautious as even at relative high level, a freaking dragon can OHK me.

What you described, M&M never had - the series' combat has always been about battle of attrition agains overwhelming number of enemies more than enything else.
None of that "die or be killed" stuff. In M&M, if your party can't take the beating, you're in the wrong neighbourhood.

 

[Cryomancer]

combat has always been about battle of attrition agains overwhelming number of enemies more than enything else.

Wrong. I can 2HK TITANS in M&M VI with sharpmetal. And OHK enemies with low MAG resist with finger of death.

You fight lots of enemies, but they die relative quickly.

 

[lukaszek]

Well, I hope you figure it out.

Ive gotten help on discord. Turns up installing MMExt is about dropping its contents into game directory, which wasnt clear to me at all(after all its 2 new folders without extra hooks).
Starting game with it triggers lua scripts which spawn those tables. Then you can edit them and MMArchive wasnt required at all(for what I needed). Tested quickly by creating op party of druids with stealing skill


Now I... dont know what I want to play

 

[T. Reich]

combat has always been about battle of attrition agains overwhelming number of enemies more than enything else.

Wrong. I can 2HK TITANS in M&M VI with sharpmetal. And OHK enemies with low MAG resist with finger of death.

You fight lots of enemies, but they die relative quickly.

WOW, THAT'S COOL!

...At what stage of the game would that be? When would one enjoy such unlimited power?
Also, how many times can you finger your enemies before you're out of juice?
How do you finger enemies with a knight or a hybrid class?

Please, do enlighten us!

P.S.: Did you play an other games in the series?

 

[Mauman]

Well, I hope you figure it out.

Ive gotten help on discord. Turns up installing MMExt is about dropping its contents into game directory, which wasnt clear to me at all(after all its 2 new folders without extra hooks).
Starting game with it triggers lua scripts which spawn those tables. Then you can edit them and MMArchive wasnt required at all(for what I needed). Tested quickly by creating op party of druids with stealing skill


Now I... dont know what I want to play

I'm glad to hear that.

Besides giving elemental/clerical GM to druids (which I consider balanced just because how damn powerful Light/Dark is), I also give Rangers Master level spells and paladins/archers access to master light/dark.

I'd still consider a knight/monk better for physical or a (modded) druid/sorc/cleric better for magic, but at least I don't feel like I'm seriously gimping myself using hybrid classes. (especially Ranger)

 

[Cryomancer]

P.S.: Did you play an other games in the series?

Yes, played 4/5/6/7/8 and a bit of 9/10.

In 4/5, due the gem requirement, I played only with a single sorcerer in my party.

knight or a hybrid class?

Knight is not a good offensive class, but is a good defensive class. As for hybrid classes, except by druid, all are really weak IMO.

 

[Mauman]

Knight is not a good offensive class, but is a good defensive class. As for hybrid classes, except by druid, all are really weak IMO.

Ah yes, I remember the dark days when mm6 knights were kinda meeehhhhh.

Then 7 came around and made them tiny gods

edit - actually, now that I think about it, knights were kinda shit through the whole series till 7. They were always overshadowed (well, maybe not in one) by Barbarians in 2-5, and (due to how skills worked in 6) almost everything in 6.

 

[Cryomancer]

What I din't liked about 7 is that all spells of a certain school deals the same damage. In M&M VI, Poison Spray deals poison, ice bolt, deals cold despite both being water magic. I could use sharpmetal and implosion to dish ridiculous damage in enemies that only takes damage from physical damage. But in M&M VIII, everyone complains about how Dragons are OP but IMO liches are even more. Souldrinker dishes (25+[d8*dark magic]) in the entire screen and heals the entire party by the same amount. And Armageddon? A few casts of it and the entire elemental plane of air is clean. The most basic starting spell, toxic cloud dishes 25+d10 damage and if you invest a bit in meditation, you can cast it dozens of times at relative low level.

In 7, I remember in my last run that I had a wand with charges of toxic cloud. So I could just with my high water magic skill cast recharge item and cast this spell dozens of hundreds of times per day, till I ran out of mana for recharge item. Is a very late game strategy but still too powerful...

 

[lukaszek]

yeah I need to balance warlocks vs liches in party. I almost created dddd party but then I realised that I do want some armageddon action... How many liches do I need to speed up tedious outdoor encounters?

 

[Darth Canoli]

Yes, played 4/5/6/7/8 and a bit of 9/10.

What a lack of discernment.
500 years ago, you'd have been burned alive.

Seriously, who plays 4,5,6,7,8 and the horrendous 9 and 10 and not Isles of Terra?
The only reasons would be to not play the best blobbers to have something to look forward to or to be extremely retarded, even by Codex standards.

 

[Storyfag]

combat has always been about battle of attrition agains overwhelming number of enemies more than enything else.

Wrong. I can 2HK TITANS in M&M VI with sharpmetal. And OHK enemies with low MAG resist with finger of death.

You fight lots of enemies, but they die relative quickly.

Silly Victor, doing it this way is a chore. Just use Armageddon on the entire map a couple of times

 

[Storyfag]

yeah I need to balance warlocks vs liches in party. I almost created dddd party but then I realised that I do want some armageddon action... How many liches do I need to speed up tedious outdoor encounters?

Consider using the MMMerge mod. It will allow you to use 5 characters in MM VI and VII.

 

[octavius]

Yes, played 4/5/6/7/8 and a bit of 9/10.

What a lack of discernment.
500 years ago, you'd have been burned alive.

Seriously, who plays 4,5,6,7,8 and the horrendous 9 and 10 and not Isles of Terra?
The only reasons would be to not play the best blobbers to have something to look forward to or to be extremely retarded, even by Codex standards.

I bet he's saving himself for MM1 and 2 which are the best blobbers of the M&M games (I consider 6-9 pseudo blobbers with their free movement).

 

[lukaszek]

while reminding myself of basics https://grayface.github.io/mm/mechanics/
Ive noticed that recovery time doesnt mention spells. Haste, speed stat affect those right?
Anyone got table of mm7 spells and their base recovery time?
only found this thread https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/10/13213 and list for mm6

table

#    Skill    Name    Normal    Expert    Master
1    Fire    Torch Light    60    60    60
2    Fire    Flame Arrow    100    90    80
3    Fire    Protection from Fire    120    120    120
4    Fire    Fire Bolt    110    100    90
5    Fire    Haste    140    120    120
6    Fire    Fireball    110    100    90
7    Fire    Ring of Fire    110    100    90
8    Fire    Fire Blast    110    90    70
9    Fire    Meteor Shower    120    110    100
10    Fire    Inferno    140    120    100
11    Fire    Incinerate    150    130    110
12    Air    Wizard Eye    60    60    60
13    Air    Static Charge    100    90    80
14    Air    Protection from Electricity    120    120    120
15    Air    Sparks    110    100    90
16    Air    Feather Fall    120    120    120
17    Air    Shield    140    120    120
18    Air    Lightning Bolt    110    100    90
19    Air    Jump    110    90    70
20    Air    Implosion    120    110    100
21    Air    Fly    250    250    250
22    Air    Starburst    150    130    110
23    Water    Awaken    60    60    60
24    Water    Cold Beam    90    80    80
25    Water    Protection from Cold    120    120    120
26    Water    Poison Spray    110    100    90
27    Water    Water Walk    150    120    120
28    Water    Ice Bolt    110    100    90
29    Water    Enchant Item    140    140    140
30    Water    Acid Burst    110    100    90
31    Water    Town Portal    200    200    200
32    Water    Ice Blast    120    110    100
33    Water    Lloyd's Beacon    250    250    250
34    Earth    Stun    80    80    80
35    Earth    Magic Arrow    100    90    80
36    Earth    Protection from Magic    120    120    120
37    Earth    Deadly Swarm    110    100    90
38    Earth    Stone Skin    140    120    120
39    Earth    Blades    110    100    90
40    Earth    Stone to Flesh    140    140    140
41    Earth    Rock Blast    110    100    90
42    Earth    Turn to Stone    130    130    130
43    Earth    Death Blossom    120    110    100
44    Earth    Mass Distortion    140    120    100
45    Spirit    Spirit Arrow    90    80    80
46    Spirit    Bless    140    100    100
47    Spirit    Healing Touch    140    140    140
48    Spirit    Lucky Day    140    140    120
49    Spirit    Remove Curse    140    140    140
50    Spirit    Guardian Angel    120    120    120
51    Spirit    Heroism    140    120    120
52    Spirit    Turn Undead    140    120    100
53    Spirit    Raise Dead    240    240    240
54    Spirit    Shared Life    150    150    150
55    Spirit    Resurrection    1000    1000    1000
56    Mind    Meditation    140    140    120
57    Mind    Remove Fear    140    140    140
58    Mind    Mind Blast    110    100    90
59    Mind    Precision    140    140    120
60    Mind    Cure Paralysis    140    140    140
61    Mind    Charm    100    100    100
62    Mind    Mass Fear    100    90    80
63    Mind    Feeblemind    110    100    90
64    Mind    Cure Insanity    140    140    140
65    Mind    Psychic Shock    130    120    110
66    Mind    Telekinesis    250    250    250
67    Body    Cure Weakness    140    140    140
68    Body    First Aid    140    140    140
69    Body    Protection from Poison    120    120    120
70    Body    Harm    110    100    90
71    Body    Cure Wounds    140    140    140
72    Body    Cure Poison    140    140    140
73    Body    Speed    140    140    120
74    Body    Cure Disease    140    140    140
75    Body    Power    140    140    120
76    Body    Flying Fist    130    120    110
77    Body    Power Cure    150    125    100
78    Light    Create Food    100    90    90
79    Light    Golden Touch    100    100    100
80    Light    Dispel Magic    100    90    90
81    Light    Slow    120    100    80
82    Light    Destroy Undead    120    110    100
83    Light    Day of the Gods    500    500    500
84    Light    Prismatic Light    150    135    120
85    Light    Hour of Power    250    250    250
86    Light    Paralyze    160    140    120
87    Light    Sun Ray    180    165    150
88    Light    Divine Intervention    200    200    200
89    Dark    Reanimate    100    100    100
90    Dark    Toxic Cloud    120    110    100
91    Dark    Mass Curse    120    120    120
92    Dark    Shrapmetal    100    90    80
93    Dark    Shrinking Ray    120    120    120
94    Dark    Day of Protection    500    500    500
95    Dark    Finger of Death    130    130    130
96    Dark    Moon Ray    150    140    130
97    Dark    Dragon Breath    160    140    130
98    Dark    Armageddon    250    250    250
99    Dark    Dark Containment    300    300    300

would it be safe to assume that its similar in mm6 and that spells cant get lower recovery than 30? Looking at above with haste and 500 speed one can get sparks to 35. Shrapmetal is actually faster than sparks which I find weird

 

[lukaszek]

ahh, found some info in /data/tables/spells2.txt

big table

Spell    SpellPointsNormal    SpellPointsExpert    SpellPointsMaster    SpellPointsGM    DelayNormal    DelayExpert    DelayMaster    DelayGM    DamageAdd    DamageDiceSides
    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0
Torch Light    1    1    1    1    60    60    60    40    0    0
Fire Bolt    2    2    2    2    110    110    100    90    0    3
Fire Resistance    3    3    3    3    120    120    120    120    0    0
Fire Aura    4    4    4    4    120    120    120    120    0    0
Haste    5    5    5    5    120    120    120    120    0    0
Fireball    8    8    8    8    100    100    90    80    0    6
Fire Spike    10    10    10    10    150    150    150    150    0    6
Immolation    15    15    15    15    120    120    120    120    0    6
Meteor Shower    20    20    20    20    100    100    100    90    8    1
Inferno    25    25    25    25    100    100    100    90    12    1
Incinerate    30    30    30    30    90    90    90    90    15    15
Wizard Eye    1    1    1    0    60    60    60    60    0    0
Feather Fall    2    2    2    2    120    120    120    100    0    0
Air Resistance    3    3    3    3    120    120    120    120    0    0
Sparks    4    4    4    4    110    100    90    80    2    1
Jump    5    5    5    5    90    90    70    50    0    0
Shield    8    8    8    8    120    120    120    120    0    0
Lightning Bolt    10    10    10    10    100    100    90    70    0    8
Invisibility    15    15    15    15    200    200    200    200    0    0
Implosion    20    20    20    20    100    100    100    90    10    10
Fly    25    25    25    25    250    250    250    250    0    0
Starburst    30    30    30    30    90    90    90    90    20    1
Awaken    1    1    1    1    60    60    60    20    0    0
Poison Spray    2    2    2    2    110    100    90    70    2    2
Water Resistance    3    3    3    3    120    120    120    120    0    0
Ice Bolt    4    4    4    4    110    100    90    80    0    4
Water Walk    5    5    5    5    150    150    150    150    0    0
Recharge Item    8    8    8    8    200    200    200    200    0    0
Acid Burst    10    10    10    10    100    100    90    80    9    9
Enchant Item    15    15    15    15    140    140    140    140    0    0
Town Portal    20    20    20    20    200    200    200    200    0    0
Ice Blast    25    25    25    25    80    80    80    80    12    3
Lloyd's Beacon    30    30    30    30    250    250    250    250    0    0
Stun    1    1    1    1    80    80    80    80    0    0
Slow    2    2    2    2    100    100    100    100    0    0
Earth Resistance    3    3    3    3    120    120    120    120    0    0
Deadly Swarm    4    4    4    4    110    100    90    80    5    3
Stone Skin    5    5    5    5    120    120    120    120    0    0
Blades    8    8    8    8    100    100    90    80    0    9
Stone to Flesh    10    10    10    10    140    140    140    140    0    0
Rock Blast    15    15    15    15    90    90    90    80    0    8
Telekinesis    20    20    20    20    150    150    150    150    0    0
Death Blossom    25    25    25    25    100    100    100    90    20    1
Mass Distortion    30    30    30    30    90    90    90    90    25    0
Detect Life    1    1    1    1    100    100    100    100    0    0
Bless    2    2    2    2    100    100    100    100    0    0
Fate    3    3    3    3    90    90    90    90    0    0
Turn Undead    4    4    4    4    120    120    120    120    0    0
Remove Curse    5    5    5    5    120    120    120    120    0    0
Preservation    8    8    8    8    120    120    120    120    0    0
Heroism    10    10    10    10    120    120    120    120    0    0
Spirit Lash    15    15    15    15    100    100    100    100    10    8
Raise Dead    20    20    20    20    240    240    240    240    0    0
Shared Life    25    25    25    25    150    150    150    150    0    0
Resurrection    30    30    30    30    1000    1000    1000    1000    0    0
Remove Fear    1    1    1    1    120    120    120    120    0    0
Mind Blast    2    2    2    2    110    110    110    110    3    3
Mind Resistance    3    3    3    3    120    120    120    120    0    0
Telepathy    4    4    4    4    110    100    90    80    0    0
Charm    5    5    5    5    100    100    100    100    0    0
Cure Paralysis    8    8    8    8    120    120    120    120    0    0
Berserk    10    10    10    10    120    120    120    120    0    0
Mass Fear    15    15    15    15    80    80    80    80    0    0
Cure Insanity    20    20    20    20    120    120    120    120    0    0
Psychic Shock    25    25    25    25    110    110    110    100    12    12
Enslave    30    30    30    30    120    120    120    120    0    0
Cure Weakness    1    1    1    1    120    120    120    120    0    0
Heal    2    2    2    2    100    100    100    100    0    0
Body Resistance    3    3    3    3    120    120    120    120    0    0
Harm    4    4    4    4    110    100    90    80    8    2
Regeneration    5    5    5    5    110    110    110    110    0    0
Cure Poison    8    8    8    8    120    120    120    120    0    0
Hammerhands    10    10    10    10    120    120    120    120    0    0
Cure Disease    15    15    15    15    120    120    120    120    0    0
Protection from Magic    20    20    20    20    120    120    120    120    0    0
Flying Fist    25    25    25    25    110    110    110    100    30    5
Power Cure    30    30    30    30    100    100    100    100    0    0
Light Bolt    5    5    5    5    110    100    90    80    0    4
Destroy Undead    10    10    10    10    120    110    100    90    16    16
Dispel Magic    15    15    15    15    120    110    100    90    0    0
Paralyze    20    20    20    20    160    140    120    100    0    0
Summon Elemental    25    25    25    25    140    140    140    140    0    0
Day of the Gods    30    30    30    30    500    500    500    500    0    0
Prismatic Light    35    35    35    35    135    135    120    100    25    1
Day of Protection    40    40    40    40    500    500    500    500    0    0
Hour of Power    45    45    45    45    250    250    250    250    0    0
Sunray    50    50    50    50    150    150    150    135    20    20
Divine Intervention    55    55    55    55    300    300    300    300    0    0
Reanimate    10    10    10    10    140    140    140    140    0    0
Toxic Cloud    15    15    15    15    120    110    100    90    25    10
Vampiric Weapon    20    20    20    20    120    100    90    120    0    0
Shrinking Ray    25    25    25    25    120    120    120    120    0    0
Shrapmetal    30    30    30    30    90    90    80    70    6    6
Control Undead    35    35    35    35    120    120    100    80    0    0
Pain Reflection    40    40    40    40    110    110    110    110    0    0
Sacrifice    45    45    45    45    200    200    200    150    0    0
Dragon Breath    50    50    50    50    120    120    120    100    0    25
Armageddon    55    55    55    55    250    250    250    250    50    1
Souldrinker    60    60    60    60    300    300    300    300    25    8

gm spark is 80, gm poison spray 70, gm shrapmetal 70
No dmg spell seem to go under 70

so yeah this does not seem to be true:

sssd will clear out the absolute fuck out of everything with sparks in melee range and fireballs at distance, both spells being insanely mana-cost-effective if used correctly.

Why do people *always* dismiss the issue of damage-time-effectiveness? This is arguably much more important than mana-cost-effectiveness, especially if facing hard-hitting opponents who you want to dispose of ASAP. In those cases Shrapmetal is love, Shrapmetal is life.

In fact, going light is stronger than going dake here - you already have all the magical offensive power you need, and light gives you the insane defense that your spellcasters normally lack.

Well, fair enough. But the light path is ewww.

May I introduce you to the concept of recovery time?
Which sparks, being a low-level spell, has very, VERY little of.
Then there's such thing as hit recovery, which enemies also have.
When you combine very fast spell with a lot of projectiles that deal tons of damage, from at least 3 casters, on auto cast, what you get is near-perma-stunned mobs (the ones that survive for longer than a second, anyway).

according to above shrapmetal is faster than spark, got same number of projectiles and hits harder.

Unless you add another dimension of spark having aoe. In close distance you hit everyone in front of you with 9 projectiles. Shrapmetal will only hit some.

 

[Mauman]

I think merge (or at least merge with the community patch) came with Druids with GM magics.

 

[lukaszek]

Haste, speed stat affect those right?

from what I was told, haste and speed does not affect spells.

If you do pure spellcaster party, you can ditch not just might and accuracy, but also speed apparently. Sure if you go with blasters they come back into picture but you can correct them with black potions.


I think im going to roll with 4x dwarf warlocks

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Lots of dissing MM6 as a shitty looking game in another thread which made me want to relook at a few reviews.


Take notice of 20:20sh part..

Spoiler

And the other reviews

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I thought you needed that $1500 or $2500 unity program for this?

 

[Darth Canoli]

I thought you needed that $1500 or $2500 unity program for this?

For advanced modding but if you just want to change some numbers & skills mastery, you just need notepad and a table editor.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Still, that unity program or whatever that guy was using looked kind of sweet.

 

[Cryomancer]

Playing a bit of 9(ragequitted due crashing last time that I attempted to play), I know that I will suffer a lot of hate by saying it but I will be honest. I'm liking it way more than M&M X. Still extremely inferior to 4/5/6/7/8 but is good non the less. So far, the worst thing in the game is homogenizing water/fire/air/earth magic into an generic "elemental magic"and the thing whcih I liked the most is that some spells scale with two schools. For eg, Poison direct damage scales with elemental and DoT with dark magic.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Playing a bit of 9(ragequitted due crashing last time that I attempted to play), I know that I will suffer a lot of hate by saying it but I will be honest. I'm liking it way more than M&M X. Still extremely inferior to 4/5/6/7/8 but is good non the less. So far, the worst thing in the game is homogenizing water/fire/air/earth magic into an generic "elemental magic"and the thing whcih I liked the most is that some spells scale with two schools. For eg, Poison direct damage scales with elemental and DoT with dark magic.

I kind of liked M&M IX up until the first town and the swamp area around.
Having to explore a maze-like city and empty houses to find masters was a really dumb idea.

And the swamp area is absolutely disgusting, did they fire the graphic team and let the interns go wild on this one?