The Japs do everything better

[Cryomancer]

Call me when Western RPGs start depicting beauty worth fighting for.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

No matter how good DMC1 was, it was objective a complete failure of a project. He was told to make RE4 and instead he made DMC and derailed multiple years of development and company resources.

The game was comercial and critical success
The game started development in 99 (or very late 98) and by 2000 it already played close to its final reseale, so Mikami convinved everyone that it should be a new IP

And what's wrong with that?

What's wrong is that the games had already much dna from spin-off media
It would require multiple contrived retcons and would certaintly retro-actively ruin many things
And ultimately the fans liked that spin-off media and DMC5 was a game for fans and to conclude the whole "Sons of Sparda" saga nicely

Until Pizza man Dante was always serious.

Flock off feather face

Continuity is already broken by retconning the timeline any way.

2 placement wasn't certain before 5
Fans assumed it was at the end partly because of Dante's power level, partly because the game sucked and people just wanted to forget about it

Dante is already a demon hunter in 3.

He was a demon hunter because he wanted to kill demons and get paid for it
It was entirely self-serving
It's only by the end that his motives became selfless
He literally says this to Lady after her boss fight

Dante never rejected his demon heritage.

That was always the inner conflict of the character, present all the way back in 1 as it was Kamyia's idea
He hated himself because he's a (half) demon
In DMC5 it's even in his theme song ffs ("I AM SUBHUMAN")

Every time we see him he's always embraced his demonic powers and used them for good.

He used them because otherwise he wouldn't be able to kill demons, but he never embraced them, that only happened in 5 when he absords the Sparda - in the beggining of 3 he didn't even had awakned his DT yet, something which Vergil was perplexed as to why he would reject

Vergil rejected being human because Dante kept beating him

Vergil rejected his humanity because he associated it with weakness, since he failed to protect his mother and was himself almost killed by Mundus demons had he not wakened the DT
His rivalry with Dante was (besides childish brawls) exactely because he despised his human side while his brother loved it and despised their demonic heritage ("Father? I have no father.")

Vergil don't grow or change

He finally accepts that his humanity is superior to his demonic nature and that he needs both to match Dante's power

Nero being a mediator between the brothers doesn't have any lasting impact

They literally stop trying to kill each other
Honestly have you played these games?

neither Nero nor Dante were willing to kill him

The entire drama began because both Dante and Vergil repeatedly tried to kill each other and it's repeadly said to the audience this is fundamentally wrong

 

[Hell Swarm]

The game was comercial and critical success

And? It was a developmental failure. If you're told to make something and completely derail the project because you're autistic you don't get a second shot until you prove you can reign your shit in again.

And ultimately the fans liked that spin-off media and DMC5 was a game for fans and to conclude the whole "Sons of Sparda" saga nicely

Most DMC spin-off media never made it to the West and the West is DMC's latest market by quite a margin. So ultimately fans didn't like it because they weren't exposed to it and what they were was awful (DMC anime).

Flock off feather face

One liners doesn't stop Dante being serious. Can you not tell the difference between pizza man's intro and DMC's one liners?

In DMC5 it's even in his theme song ffs ("I AM SUBHUMAN")

The second that garbage started playing I switched to actual DMC music and song lyrics don't mean much unless "The time has come and so have I" is going to be taken seriously too.

He used them because otherwise he wouldn't be able to kill demons, but he never embraced them, that only happened in 5 when he absords the Sparda - in the beggining of 3 he didn't even had awakned his DT yet, something which Vergil was perplexed as to why he would reject

He embraces his demon side in DMC3 when he unlocks his DT. If he rejected it he would never use that form or collect demon arms to get more DT forms. Mary proved you don't need demon powers to fight demons so Dante is making a choice to use his.

His rivalry with Dante was (besides childish brawls) exactely because he despised his human side while his brother loved it and despised their demonic heritage ("Father? I have no father.")

He despised weakness not being half human. Being half human gave him immense power compared to almost any demon outside of the literal Gods and Kings. He learned embracing his humanity could make him stronger and that's the only change Vergil saw in DMC5.

He finally accepts that his humanity is superior to his demonic nature and that he needs both to match Dante's power

He needs both to match Dante's power except he didn't. Dante was weaker than pure demon Vergil and it wasn't until Dante absorbed his father's sword that he was on equal footing to Vergil. Sparda gave Dante the power to absorb devil arms into himself with Rebellion and he has to absorb what's left of his father to beat Vergil after he ate the magic fruit. Vergil is then shown to be on par with Dante once he regains both halves of himself. When both brothers have become more demonic by absorbing demonic power into themselves. The arms race continues but Vergil lost his ability to be rational without his human half and became a different creature still too weak to stop Dante (while whole Vergil arguably beat Dante). The only reason Vergil even exists in 5 at the end is because his human side refused to die and forced the demon side to join with it. It's more of Vergil's selfishness and he didn't learn anything from traveling with the heros because he still betrays and tries to kill them after proving he doesn't learn and the only option is to overpower him, which Nero does instead of Dante this time.

The entire drama began because both Dante and Vergil repeatedly tried to kill each other and it's repeadly said to the audience this is fundamentally wrong

You miss the entire point of the brother's fight. Neither is trying to kill the other. Both of them are capable of killing the other at several points and neither take the opportunity to do it. Vergil can kill Dante in DMC3 and doesn't do it. Dante can kill Vergil in DMC3 and doesn't take it. Neither brother is interested in winning their fights, they're looking to clash with each other and continue to fight because it's the only way they understand how to live. They're basically unmatched power wise and the only way either can improve is to keep fighting each other. Vergil is an evil prick who keeps causing huge problems and yet Dante won't strike his brother down to protect humanity (which would be the selfless option). Vergil knows he's an evil prick and directly challenges Dante to stop him because it motivates him to push harder and become stronger until Dante finally can't stop him. But they're still FAMILY and that's the core message of DMC throughtout all of it. No matter what, family is family and you should take care of each other and see the best in each other. Nero tries to stop them from fighting but it's very unlikely he actually will because Dante and Vergil are eternally trapped in the same dance because they're two sides of the same coin and neither can kill the other without killing the only person on Earth who can possibly understand them. They will always have opposing views on the world and fight with each other, but neither can pull the trigger and put the other down because they still love each other despite their bloody history.

I like DMC2, fuck you. There's merit to DMC2 beyond the gameplay and it doesn't deserve the shit it gets. It's like DmC where if it didn't have the DMC name attached it would be decently popular. But being a DMC game it's heald to different standards and fails to meet them. Fuck the useless whores they keep shoving into games and bring Lucia back. She brings something unique to the table and isn't just a walking rocket launcher or Dante reskin.

 

[Morenatsu.]

DMC is better than gaylo but I'm not reading any of that

 

[Spike]

Call me when Western RPGs start depicting beauty worth fighting for.

Man that chick from Valkyria Chronicles is peak waifu. Thanks for reminding me I gotta finish that fantastic game.

 

[Silverfish]

One liners doesn't stop Dante being serious. Can you not tell the difference between pizza man's intro and DMC's one liners?

In the first two games, Dante's an 80's action hero. In the three that followed, he's a wholesome reddit chungus Marvel character.

 

[Spike]

One liners doesn't stop Dante being serious. Can you not tell the difference between pizza man's intro and DMC's one liners?

In the first two games, Dante's an 80's action hero. In the three that followed, he's a wholesome reddit chungus Marvel character.

Ridiculous take. He's peak fun in 3-5 and 3 was made way before Reddit had any influence on anything.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

This thread has already been derailed beyond what could've been a good discussion. I want to know what the Japanese singularity in videogames consists of. Why are games like Final Fantasy, Silent Hill and Metal Gear Solid exclusive to Japan? Does it extend to other media? Does it come from a commitment to beauty or other concepts? I'm interested in this question, because I've noticed the Japanese tend to like some of the things I do about the West, at least as far as pop media artefacts go. They like David Lynch, Miami Vice and Alain Delon. They also like baseball and pro-wrestling, which I don't even understand. They seem to like everything that pops out, is distinctive, conceptualized; they're dreamy.

I also wonder why they weren't impressed by stuff like this, as far as I'm aware:




(yes, there was an atrocious SNES port, but probably more a function of the series' name recognition going back to the first 3 games)

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Just for fun, compare Arnold's boring commercials in the West with this:



They're still recognizably Arnold(having caught on to his huge comedic talent), but they break all the rules of how he's supposed to be portrayed. A similar thing happens with Metal Gear Solid and its worship of the American action movie canon.

 

[Hell Swarm]

In the first two games, Dante's an 80's action hero. In the three that followed, he's a wholesome reddit chungus Marvel character.

Nero is basically a bit more emo DMC1/2 Dante. I only just realized it but it makes sense.

Ridiculous take. He's peak fun in 3-5 and 3 was made way before Reddit had any influence on anything.

Most of us like Whacky pizza man but he's such a different character after 3. He's run and you get a good campaign out of it but there's also room for DMC1/2 Dante to have stories told about him too. DMC3 Dante does lean into the Marvel trope of never letting an emotional moment land and just sit. He always has to do something silly in response. It's not full Reddit but there's Reddit elements there. You could argue a lot of DMC5 is bad in terms of tone because Vergil is genociding a city if not the world and Dante's still whacky pizza man going woohoo as he rides his motor bike around and drinks monster. It's fun to watch but it's a bit silly in places.

They seem to like everything that pops out, is distinctive, conceptualized; they're dreamy.

They're parasitic. Everything you listed is them copying something Western. Personally I cannot stand Asian-Japanese things, their moving pacing is often like pulling teeth and involves so much useless melodrama as to make the whole thing a waste of time. Japan is at it's best when it's the West's weird little brother.

They're still recognizably Arnold(having caught on to his huge comedic talent), but they break all the rules of how he's supposed to be portrayed.

Arnie was already doing comedy movies by this point. Almost every big action star tries to avoid being type cast into Brute McMuscles by doing these fish out of water comedies. Vin Diesel was a baby sitter, The Rock was a tooth fairy and Arnie was a Kindergarten teacher, a pregnant man and Danni Devito's twin among others. It's not uniquely Japanese to make Arnie act like a fool.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

They seem to like everything that pops out, is distinctive, conceptualized; they're dreamy.

They're parasitic. Everything you listed is them copying something Western. Personally I cannot stand Asian-Japanese things, their moving pacing is often like pulling teeth and involves so much useless melodrama as to make the whole thing a waste of time. Japan is at it's best when it's the West's weird little brother.

I wouldn't say Silent Hill is parasitic in relation to Twin Peaks, or Metal Gear Solid is parasitic in relation to Rambo or Escape from New York. Where does this obstinacy comes from? I guess Gran Turismo is parasitical of car culture, Dragon Ball is parasitic of Kung-Fu movies, etc. What stupid thing to say.

They're still recognizably Arnold(having caught on to his huge comedic talent), but they break all the rules of how he's supposed to be portrayed.

Arnie was already doing comedy movies by this point. Almost every big action star tries to avoid being type cast into Brute McMuscles by doing these fish out of water comedies. Vin Diesel was a baby sitter, The Rock was a tooth fairy and Arnie was a Kindergarten teacher, a pregnant man and Danni Devito's twin among others. It's not uniquely Japanese to make Arnie act like a fool.

Don't you see the difference between Kindergarten Cop and the ads I've posted? Are you trying to convince me you're retarded?

Anyway, the most creative use of Arnold's comedic talents in movies was Total Recall, which is much funnier than his comedy movies. Perhaps not incidentally, Verhoeven is European.

 

[Lyric Suite]

They like to focus on the play of forms and aren't particularly concerned with the essence of said forms. You know, kinda like i was talking about originally.

Another element of the rajas spirit is outward beauty and nobility. In Hindu metaphysics, the rajas guna was often associated with the Kshatryia. Now the Kshatryia are the warrior but also kingly class, who tend to externalize in their outward form the beauty and majesty that the more contemplative sattva realizes within.

So when the Japanese started playing around with western forms, they had a keen eye about those things in the western aesthetic that rapresent nobility and beauty. There's something classical and patrician in a lot of the aesthetic one finds in the more classic animes and mangas:

One of the things that makes the art in FromSoft games so attractive to me is that they combine this quality with a more grounded and serious western sensibility, but you can find this element in almost the vast majority of modern Japanese popular art. Even in animu while humans may be drawn in a retarded way the backgrounds are often formally correct and perfect.

This would also explain their fascination for the physical form of Europeans themselves, though it seems they have been moving away from that over time. Either way, there's this almost regal quality in most Japanese art that is found even among the more cutsey and faggoty animu shit. Of course, when everything is majestic nothing is which is definitely a drawback.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Silent Hill is parasitic in relation to Twin Peak

Silent Hill isn't just Twin Peaks though is it? It's literally copying Western movies for it's locations. Even down to the posters on the wall. They're not creating anything new, they're just shuffling pieces of already created works around. Five Minutes from Jacob's ladder, 10 minutes from Twin Peaks, 3 minutes from that Hailey Berry movie I can't recall the name of that had 2 minutes of worth while footage. Almost any property outside of Mario is basically just Japan putting something Western into a fun house mirror and saying 'Rook, we madeo someting oliginal!" and it's not.

Dragon Ball is parasitic of Kung-Fu movies

It's Journey to the west reformulated. It's up to you to decide when it becomes a cheap knock off and when it becomes it's own thing but it's still leeching off the popularity of something else.

Don't you see the difference between Kindergarten Cop and the ads I've posted? Are you trying to convince me you're retarded?

There's barely any difference between making a roided freak act goofy no matter how you slice it. The joke is the same joke.

There's something classical and patrician in a lot of the aesthetic one finds in the more classic animes and mangas:

Not really. The Gundam is just a samurai robot with a laser gun made to sell toys. The older animes backgrounds are often stunning but it's again Disney's art style they're mostly copying. Notice a lot of old Disney films have quite basic animation over hyper detailed backgrounds and anime copies this until the digital era where budgets dry up a lot. I'd also say Japan makes a lot of very ugly and non-elegant things. They have a weird fetish for tentacles and over the top gore they express in grotesque ways. They have an especial big fondness of high school girls being raped or murdered that's only rivaled by women's day time TV movies.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Not really. The Gundam is just a samurai robot with a laser gun made to sell toys.

No, it's more than that. There's a reason the design became an hit it's the sheer elegance of it.

As for the ulgly and grotesque stuff. It's all related to what i said. Japanese art is a play of forms. The aesthetic variation overrides any other consideration. This is what makes their art difficult to accept for a westerners] even when it is at its most elegant or virtuosic.

 

[Hell Swarm]

No, it's more than that. There's a reason the design became an hit it's the sheer elegance of it.

Laughs in White base

Thing is ugly as all fuck and absolutely no design philosophy outside of toy sales and he's a mega hit.

 

[behold_a_man]

i'm just saying the gameplay aspect of games is not an art (in the loftier sense of the word). I don't see what ideal, value, philosophy, emotion or experience can be conveyed by a combat system, or a looting mechanic etc.

You'll never be a real engineer.

 

[Hell Swarm]

i'm just saying the gameplay aspect of games is not an art (in the loftier sense of the word). I don't see what ideal, value, philosophy, emotion or experience can be conveyed by a combat system, or a looting mechanic etc.

You'll never be a real engineer.

Please don't bully him. He thinks he's a lot smarter than he is. If you can't understand how a loot system could bring emotional responses you're a simpleton beyond the point of mockery. The entire gaming industry is now built upon emotional responses to gambling.

 

[Morenatsu.]

So now even loot-boxes are art, is that it?

 

[behold_a_man]

Please don't bully him.

I enjoy reading his observations, it's just that his perspective is roughly as alien to me as alien was to the seven other passengers of Nostromo.

If you can't understand how a loot system could bring emotional responses you're a simpleton beyond the point of mockery.

Nothing brings me catharsis more reliably than a game, where I struggle, then I learn its systems, then I struggle less, perhaps rebuilding my character. How can such a system not be art? It conveys the experience of struggle or suffering, doesn't it?
Although, indeed, arty expressiveness of a game's mechanics (or anything mechanics-related) seems limited - or maybe it's just people who like it can't describe their emotions in any way.

The entire gaming industry is now built upon emotional responses to gambling.

And that sentence I don't get. Isn't the entire life a sequence of gambles, where you lose something - usually your time - in order to gain something with some probability? What is so special about emotional responses to gambling? Do people get enraged, having to re-estimate unknown probabilities...?

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

They like to focus on the play of forms and aren't particularly concerned with the essence of said forms. You know, kinda like i was talking about originally.

At first I was tempted to agree with such a judgement by simply recalling the Japanese habit of making up meaningless word salads with English words, and even conceptual salads of disjointed cultural and religious references from, say, Christianity(this is common in anime, where Christianity is normally understood as a series of kabbalistic formulations and secret teachings). But the more I think about it, the less the generalization fits and I wonder if in many cases the opposite isn't true. You said you like Kurosawa, I don't think you would say that the only thing he took from Shakespeare was the play of forms and not the essence of said forms. Without any previous knowledge of Shakespeare, one could hardly guess that one was seeing an adaptation from a Western work when watching Ran, for example.

But maybe let's consider an easier example first, also more relevant to our discussion. I mentioned Metal Gear Solid and the American movie canon, as well as Silent Hill and Twin Peaks (the other guy was quick to point out it wasn't only Twin Peaks, gee thanks I didn't know that!). Kojima saw Rambo and immediately apprehended that somewhere in that mythos was a story of technological man attempting to create a perfect warrior through science. He understood the homoeroticism and religious iconography and ran away with it. Pauline Kael saw the same (she hated the movies) when she wrote:

Rambo has been programmed with (a) homoeroticism, (b) self-pity, (c) self-righteousness, (d) sweat, and (e) an insatiable need to be crucified over and over.

The director, George P. Cosmatos, gives this near-psychotic material—a mixture of Catholic iconography and Soldier of Fortune pulp—a veneer of professionalism, but the looniness is always there. Rambo’s old Green Beret colonel calls him “a pure fighting machine,” yet, like Rocky, Rambo always has to have bigger guys in his movies—real bruisers, like the Russian giant here—to beat him up. We mustn’t forget that his namesake is Arthur (A Season in Hell) Rimbaud: trying to explain Rambo to a corrupt official, the colonel says, “What you choose to call hell, he calls home.”

Apparently, Japanese boys don't like the same things as middle-aged Jewish women in New York. In any case, Metal Gear took a life of its own because because Kojima took his influences literally, he wasn't satisfied with copying forms. He saw that the form was pointing somewhere, to new ideas. In contrast, Western directors from the 90s and later thought action movies were only about bigger and bigger explosions, that's why they weren't able to replicate the formula of the 80s action flick. They still can't get it right.

Silent Hill is another example of going beyond established forms. The horror of familiar settings, the nostalgia of small towns, the Lynchian instinct for seeing through objects to a hidden reality, that is the form. Silent Hill is that, but also something else. They took those elements from Twin Peaks, Jacob's Ladder, etc. and applied them to their own turned-inside-out reality that is unmistakably Japanese. It's horror in form and in essence, there's no dissonance.

Another element of the rajas spirit is outward beauty and nobility. In Hindu metaphysics, the rajas guna was often associated with the Kshatryia. Now the Kshatryia are the warrior but also kingly class, who tend to externalize in their outward form the beauty and majesty that the more contemplative sattva realizes within.

I also read Evola and Guénon when I was 20, but I don't understand the point of these constant excursions into Hindu metaphysics. I'm not sure you do, either.

So when the Japanese started playing around with western forms, they had a keen eye about those things in the western aesthetic that rapresent nobility and beauty. There's something classical and patrician in a lot of the aesthetic one finds in the more classic animes and mangas:

One of the things that makes the art in FromSoft games so attractive to me is that they combine this quality with a more grounded and serious western sensibility, but you can find this element in almost the vast majority of modern Japanese popular art. Even in animu while humans may be drawn in a retarded way the backgrounds are often formally correct and perfect.

This would also explain their fascination for the physical form of Europeans themselves, though it seems they have been moving away from that over time. Either way, there's this almost regal quality in most Japanese art that is found even among the more cutsey and faggoty animu shit. Of course, when everything is majestic nothing is which is definitely a drawback.

Japan maintained its reverence for regality, exclusivity, ancientness for longer than in the West. In ancient Europe, the prestige of a cult would normally be based on such principles. Every child of good breeding has the instinct to revere such things, but it's quickly snuffed out by modern education in its various forms.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Silent Hill is parasitic in relation to Twin Peak

Silent Hill isn't just Twin Peaks though is it? It's literally copying Western movies for it's locations. Even down to the posters on the wall. They're not creating anything new, they're just shuffling pieces of already created works around. Five Minutes from Jacob's ladder, 10 minutes from Twin Peaks, 3 minutes from that Hailey Berry movie I can't recall the name of that had 2 minutes of worth while footage. Almost any property outside of Mario is basically just Japan putting something Western into a fun house mirror and saying 'Rook, we madeo someting oliginal!" and it's not.

Dragon Ball is parasitic of Kung-Fu movies

It's Journey to the west reformulated. It's up to you to decide when it becomes a cheap knock off and when it becomes it's own thing but it's still leeching off the popularity of something else.

Don't you see the difference between Kindergarten Cop and the ads I've posted? Are you trying to convince me you're retarded?

There's barely any difference between making a roided freak act goofy no matter how you slice it. The joke is the same joke.

Not even worth replying to. Your place is editing fandom wikis and tvtropes, not in a discussion about cultural forms.

 

[Saldrone]

TV Tropes has been in decline recently since they have been deleting and re-editing trope pages for no good reason

 

[Hell Swarm]

And that sentence I don't get. Isn't the entire life a sequence of gambles, where you lose something - usually your time - in order to gain something with some probability? What is so special about emotional responses to gambling? Do people get enraged, having to re-estimate unknown probabilities...?

There's specific ways you can train a person to respond to stimuli. One of the best is to make the stimuli random instead of a consistent reward. If a person knows they can press a button and get a cookie they have no reason to keep pushing it until they want one. If they have a variable chance to get a cookie then they will keep pushing the button over and over because getting a cookie to come out at all becomes a reward in and of it's self. Gambling is a really powerful manipulator, especially when attached to an engaging activity like video games.

Not even worth replying to. Your place is editing fandom wikis and tvtropes, not in a discussion about cultural forms.

"Cultural forms." What a faggot. Maybe you should try copy and pasting some other people's posts to prove how deep and original your content is. Or maybe just STFU about a shitty island with awful media incredibly over rated by virgins with autism.

 

[Hell Swarm]

So now even loot-boxes are art, is that it?

I'm not an Apex player but it's hard to argue these animations for loot box opening aren't art. If you say it isn't then you have to explain why the video below is art but those aren't despite them both being short movies about robots. But then some queer art lover will say that's not real art and we'll be back to them sniffing their own farts instead of accepting the vast majority of art is a painting of a house/tree on a hill mass produced to hang on living room walls and 'high art' is shitting spaghetti onto a bed sheet in the name of feminism. You shouldn't care what is/isn't art. You should enjoy the cool robot movies and move on with life.

 

[behold_a_man]

There's specific ways you can train a person to respond to stimuli. One of the best is to make the stimuli random instead of a consistent reward. If a person knows they can press a button and get a cookie they have no reason to keep pushing it until they want one. If they have a variable chance to get a cookie then they will keep pushing the button over and over because getting a cookie to come out at all becomes a reward in and of it's self. Gambling is a really powerful manipulator, especially when attached to an engaging activity like video games.

So is it 'gambling' or rather 'randomness'? Interviews have very similar mechanics to the cookies you described (even closer to games - you can change the probability of the outcome by your actions); they are attached to engaging activities (like interacting with recruiters not knowing what they want). The same goes for exams and lots of other things. What makes games so special in that regard?