The Japs do everything better

[Ash]

Right. Because you're so above them. Not even art, after all. Probably just be the particular games you play.

You have 56,000 posts on a forum dedicated to them broski...maybe it's time for a reevaluation of priorities? Maybe Damned Registrations was right.
I didn't even notice that count before. It's not usually something that is relevant information. Must be spending more time talking nonsense about games than actually playing them!
Eh, the codex admins probably just fudged the numbers for fun. Can't be real.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Kurosawa was a man, not a film.

Put a list of his movies up a wall, throw a dart blind folded and whatever it lands on, it's better than animu.

You don't even know what I'm claiming.

This is just another deflection.

The fact remains that your smug ass wanted to make a sweeping generalization about America, probably thinking you were gonna get patted in the back by all the other psuedo-intellectuals who think shitting on America makes them "smart" where as obviously you didn't even know what you don't know.

Like, Japan can't even compete with American niggers:

 

[Lyric Suite]

Right. Because you're so above them. Not even art, after all. Probably just be the particular games you play.

You have 56,000 posts on a forum dedicated to them broski...maybe it's time for a reevaluation of priorities? Maybe Damned Registrations was right.

I didn't even notice that count before. It's not usually something that is relevant information. Must be spending more time talking nonsense about them than actually playing them!

You can enjoy games without having delusions about what they are when it comes down to it.

It's pop culture. Video games will never, ever, EVER amount to anything serious.

I also happen to enjoy many other things i don't consider to be serious. I sometimes still read fantasy or sci-fi books for fun. I still wouldn't call it real literature.

 

[Ash]

And yet here we are, utterly cucked by them, addicted and passionately obsessed (I know I am, and 56,000 posts indicates you are too), and they are the leading entertainment (and arts!) industry by a mile dominating even Hollywood.

Video games are the present & future of the arts

Too bad most games are soulless shit and retarded these days, but hey. I can never let go of the 90s in particular.

 

[Lyric Suite]

But can we have that under capitalism? No. We can't. I'll let the reader ponder as to why.

No need to ponder. Just say Jews.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The Renaissance did introduce a more naturalistic and literalistic style of art, but the notion that Modern art was a direct reaction against these characteristics is not accurate
The Modernistic movement began centuries after the Renaissance

That doesn't mean anything, it just took that long for the rebellion to mount. Naturalism in art had run its course and was only kept alive by academicism, forcibly at that. That's when the whole thing finally blew apart and the floodgates begun to pour out.

Curious
The Church seems to think the way around for centuries
Oh, but I guess they're wrong and that is just further proof that what you say is right

The Church supporting the Renaissance was a mistake, yes.

In the middle ages it was strictly forbidden to rapresent the Father (most you could do is reference him with the eye or the hand), so the fact the Vatican allowed for Michelangelo to paint his Adam (a humanist work of art in many respects) shows Catholicism had lost its way.

As much as i rail against Protestantism the reality is that hadn't the Catholic Church lost some of its ways the Reformation would have never happened. While i disagree with the iconoclasm of Luther in general i can understand his reaction given the kind of art that was being made in Italy at the time, and the Church went from bad to worse when they championed Bernini. The Germans of course didn't fair much better with the Baroque but by that point the humanist mind virus had spread everywhere.

The Council of Trent cleaned up the theology but was unable to fix some of the problems caused by the Renaissance.

Also not accurate
It greatly depends on the culture, time period, artistic style and even said culture's concept of "form"

All ancient art is made the same way with almost no exception. Cultures vary sure but the modus operandi was similar.

Or are you going to tell me that the highly realistic sculptures of the ancient Greeks or the intricate detail found in Roman mosaics, don't demonstrate a focus on form?

It does, but that's because formalism in art was their degeneration first. The Greeks and the Romans made the error first, the Italians just resurrected their mistake.

Modernism is if anything a period of a wide range of artistic and philosophical movements

They all share the same root.

And a common ideals was that of "Ascension" - though obviously the perspective on that was and entailed varied

In reality, it was a descension. Having closed off everything that stood above man, they begun to focus on what was below him, which is the common thread connecting all modern art. So in the 19th century there was a flight towards dreams as well as nightmares. By the 20th century we are already in the recesses of the darkest psychology.

 

[GamerCat_]

Kurosawa was a man, not a film.

Put a list of his movies up a wall, throw a dart blind folded and whatever it lands on, it's better than animu.

Specific work is better than medium/genre. Very smart.

You don't even know what I'm claiming.

This is just another deflection.

You haven't replied to 90% of what I've written. You take one piece which allows you to make a sweeping and insubstantial statement that makes you feel like an Aaron Sorkin character having his big moment because you don't actually like, understand, or care about anything and have a mind that runs entirely on memes and cargo cultism.

What have I deflected? Is there a single thought you've raised that I haven't answered? If there is, just lay them out one by one and I will. If you refuse this you are very obviously deflecting, though this is of course very obvious already to any observer with half a brain. Who's on your side here?

The fact remains that your smug ass wanted to make a sweeping generalization about America, probably thinking you were gonna get patted in the back by all the other psuedo-intellectuals who think shitting on America makes them "smart" where as obviously you didn't even know what you don't know.

The generalisation is true on many levels (the contexts and specific statements in which I made it). My position is not pseudo-intellectual, and I did not make a generalisation and then fill it in under pressure. I have been making sense this whole time. Like everything else is to you, putting on this tone is a cargo culting. You don't know what it's like to be exasperated with a moron. It's just something you've seen done and you think you'd like to try it. I don't actually think you are capable of feeling sufficient passion for this or anything else to experience true exasperation. You're doing an impersonation of a human being right now.

Like, Japan can't even compete with American niggers:

Opie and Anthony is gaming culture because Anthony raped Sphere Hunter.

 

[Ash]

You haven't replied to 90% of what I've written.

I don't either. Too verbose, wild tangents, misinterpretation of what was said, and the video spam just makes it worse. At least that was my experience.

Condense your posts a bit and then I can school you on the fact that FF7 combat is not a "mere contrivance" You just don't give a shit about gameplay in general and fail to see the value. Spectacle, graphics, feeling and story is your only concern instead of the bigger picture like a lot of silly pseudo-intellectual gamers shitting up the medium.

 

[GamerCat_]

You haven't replied to 90% of what I've written.

I don't either. Too verbose, wild tangents, misinterpretation of what was said, and the video spam just makes it worse. At least that was my experience.

Condense your posts a bit and then I can school you on the fact that FF7 combat is not a "mere contrivance" You just don't give a shit about gameplay in general and fail to see the value. Spectacle, graphics, feeling and story is your only concern instead of the bigger picture like a lot of silly pseudo-intellectual gamers shitting up the medium.

I am trying to have some fun with this, and make interesting posts. Embedded videos are fun and make a thread more interesting to look at. We can make our own posts multimedia, so why wouldn't you? You can turn every post into a magazine page if you're good and have a lot you can work in. As for your criticisms of my writing itself, all of those are at least plausibly failures on your end as a reader. Lots of people enjoy the way I post in forums.

As for Final Fantasy 7, my thoughts are very nuanced. And you are a nigger faggot retard who is somehow capable of lucid thought but also able to drop to the level of a Lyric Suite on a dime because there are so many subjects in gaming where you've raised absurd vestigial hills to die on over nonsensical outdated memes.

Right. Because you're so above them. Not even art, after all. Probably just be the particular games you play.

You have 56,000 posts on a forum dedicated to them broski...maybe it's time for a reevaluation of priorities? Maybe Damned Registrations was right.

I didn't even notice that count before. It's not usually something that is relevant information. Must be spending more time talking nonsense about them than actually playing them!

You can enjoy games without having delusions about what they are when it comes down to it.

It's pop culture. Video games will never, ever, EVER amount to anything serious.

I also happen to enjoy many other things i don't consider to be serious. I sometimes still read fantasy or sci-fi books for fun. I still wouldn't call it real literature.

You are incapable of explaining what "pop culture", "serious", or "real literature" mean. So this post fails to communicate anything.

 

[Ash]

Cait Sith is an appropriate avatar. The least interesting and most whimsical, absurd, weird character in the entire game

Appreciate the compliment though! Not sure what's going on with the pedo accusations but if not true (I hope) then you'll always be welcome here to talk shit to one another no matter your views. No hard feelings. We're very pro-freedom of speech here, within reason.

As for your posts, you have an interesting perspective on some things but it's always best to at least slightly be conscious of maintaining your audience and getting the point across in a succinct manner. I'm not the best to talk on the matter, but that's just common sense Sir. Don't want to be multi-quoting and reading the huge posts of one individual all day! TL;DR.

Eh, maybe it's just me. Nobody else has complained. Might need to check my attention span.

 

[Morenatsu.]

Hey gamercat don't listen to that guy he has me on ignore for shitting on his mawds

 

[Lyric Suite]

The generalisation is true on many levels

But it's also false on many other levels. America is a country full of paradoxes, but to say they have no creative impulse is absurd and while much of their entertainment is trivial when it gets serious it's REALLY serious:



I don't know how many here are even equipped to understand how complex the above is.

And no doubt America has certain advantages over other countries. Its large size as well as its massive wealth means they have advantages other countries cannot boast, i'm not disputing that, but it's still not wise to underestimate them.

How many of the best games of the golden era of the PC came from America? Just because their culture has declined to the point they make nothing but worthless slop now doesn't mean you can just ignore everything else the country has produced in the past.

 

[Nutmeg]

How the hell do you conclude that it's ultimately IP?

Because IP, as it is currently formulated in most societies, allows corporations to establish fraudulent associations between works of art made by completely different people, all for profit, and exclude the original artists from continuing their vision under the same name, or with the same characters etc.

 

[GamerCat_]

The generalisation is true on many levels

But it's also false on many other levels. America is a country full of paradoxes

The power of traditionalism.

, but to say they have no creative impulse is absurd

Nobody has said that, but if stating that this would be absurd makes you feel really smart I suppose you can repeat it every reply as though someone is. Someone, somewhere might believe it.

and while much of their entertainment is trivial when it gets serious it's REALLY serious:



I don't know how many here are even equipped to understand how complex the above is.

Why don't you show us how it's done?

And no doubt America has certain advantages over other countries. Its large size as well as its massive wealth means they have advantages other countries cannot boast, i'm not disputing that, but it's still not wise to underestimate them.

How many of the best games of the golden era of the PC came from America? Just because their culture has declined to the point they make nothing but worthless slop now doesn't mean you can just ignore everything else the country has produced in the past.

The "golden era of PC gaming" is a term used to describe a point in American history. Yes it's American. You might as well talk about the golden age of Hollywood being a distinctly American phenomena. And I am not ignoring the history of American art. Video games in America declined because of circumstances heavily formed by particulars of American character and culture.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

I'm gonna knock you on your fat ass.

Leave Lyric Suite in his ignorance.

90s Final Fantasy is more than art, and perhaps the definitive contender to present in the question of "Do the Japs do it better"? It pains me there are so many "gamers" out there that have not played them, and that they will be lost art one day. But there are those that I can say the same for in the western sphere too, Like Deus Ex, janky as fuck may it be. I tried to preserve it, but it too will be lost one day. Faster than 90s Final Fantasy will as the presentation is not good and the execution imperfect.

I'm not an artfag, although I've been inching in that direction with age. In any case, I don't particularly know or care about what is art. I don't think it's a stupid debate, but it's not for me. Obviously, most of the people who engage in such debates do it for other reasons, as we see in this thread. Some people want to have their hobbies validated, others want to degrade games in order to not to have to engage seriously with certain topics, or because it makes them embarrassed about liking certain things or spending too much time on them ("it's just a hobby, man, I wasn't being serious. What do you mean I wasted my life?"--just look at Lyric Suite).

I love Final Fantasy too. I don't think I would trade it for Fallout or Ultima, but I love it. Then again, they're not even remotely the same. I don't really have an answer to "who does it better". Of course, the premise of the thread was the ludicrous proposition that "Japs do everything better", which I didn't find worth debating. It's actually quite simple to test. I'd like to be given Japanese equivalents of the following games:

Thief
Deus Ex
Alpha Centauri
Master of Magic
Victoria 2
Fallout
Jagged Alliance 2
Ultima VII
Morrowind
Carmageddon

These are just the things I like, no FPS, RTS or other stuff I don't have a qualified opinion on. They're all unbeaten in their respective fields. I'd like to hear about a game that does what they do better, and I don't mean some other Western game that is similar (maybe you prefer Dark Sun to Fallout and Eador Genesis to Master of Magic, whatever), but something Japanese and unknown to me.

 

[Ash]

Cant be given equivalents, as they do very different things, as you acknowledge. You cant really compare MGS to Thief, well you can, but they are very different experiences. Tenchu maybe. I'm certainly fond of it though it is rough around the edges and with a "story in games is like the plot in porn" approach to story, but it certainly has value elsewhere. And also was the first 3D stealth game, beating Thief to that accolade by half a year or something. But ultimately it wouldn't be the game I tried to present as an equivalent, MGS3 or something might be more appropriate despite some of Kojima's less tasteful storytelling choices. Victoria 2 there isn't really anything like that I'm aware of. Jagged Alliance, Deus Ex...the Japanese are not very simulation-oriented (and that is fine). And so on. I did list around the same number of impressive Jap games one must check out a few pages back. Though I excluded Dark Souls (which would otherwise be included) as LS had already played those. And I would make edits in an attempt to present the purest list of Japanese incline possible. It was rushed. Maybe even going one step further and possibly consulting with other well-versed gamers to truly come up with a good list as I certainly haven't played them all.

Also, Carmageddon is the odd game out there, dont you think?

 

[Spike]

The generalisation is true on many levels

But it's also false on many other levels. America is a country full of paradoxes, but to say they have no creative impulse is absurd and while much of their entertainment is trivial when it gets serious it's REALLY serious:



I don't know how many here are even equipped to understand how complex the above is.

And no doubt America has certain advantages over other countries. Its large size as well as its massive wealth means they have advantages other countries cannot boast, i'm not disputing that, but it's still not wise to underestimate them.

How many of the best games of the golden era of the PC came from America? Just because their culture has declined to the point they make nothing but worthless slop now doesn't mean you can just ignore everything else the country has produced in the past.

Are you actually converting to Islam or is that a le based exaggeration? (I do the same, I call myself a Shiite Catholic). Your take on Trent and the Renaissance is interesting but I'm worried if you're actually converting to Islam because of natural tides of history throwing the spiritual Israel to and fro. Either way, solid takes overall on American art. I have but one disagreement: games actually are a type of art. The way they are created, when they are not slop, is a true craft. I think "serious" people who engage in serious topics, are pillars of their communities, etc., do not like to put this argument forward out of a sense of pride. Sci-fi/fantasy genre fiction are the same. Engaging the imagination and going on an epic adventure full of emotion and feeling and thrills is art. If Tolkien is art, and he loved to escape in fantasy realms, I do not see how games cannot be. The fusion of music, storytelling, visuals, game mechanics, characters, etc...Does this craft not beg to be seen for what it is: art? In my mind, right now, I have Gothic. But this applies to all of our favorite classics. Spyro the Dragon evoked an incredible dream-world and was also just simply fun. I just fail to see how this isn't a kind of art. Now, it is important to engage with all artistic mediums (film, painting, plays, novels, music, etc.) and not just gaming. Maybe gaming as a whole is not art. But many games certainly seem to be to me.

 

[Lyric Suite]

My contention is that the thing that makes games games is not an art. Games CAN have art in them, and you can judge and value that art and compare it with similar art from other mediums but the element of gameplay, interaction etc is not in itself artistic.

Would you say the tactical combat of Jagged Alliance 2 is comparable to Tolkien, or Beethoven? Doesn't it feel wierd to put those things in the same category? Building a clock also requires craft but i don't know if you can compare the mechanism of a good clock to a symphony, or a painting.

I happen to think the writing in Torment, while not the best i've ever encountered, is actually better than some genuine novels i read when i was younger. Maybe not saying much as there's a lot of crappy books out there, but you can certainly make an argument that the art contained in games can be worthy of the appellative. My argument is not against that, i'm just saying the gameplay aspect of games is not an art (in the loftier sense of the word). I don't see what ideal, value, philosophy, emotion or experience can be conveyed by a combat system, or a looting mechanic etc.

 

[Spike]

My contention is that the thing that makes games games is not an art. Games CAN have art in them, and you can judge and value that art and compare it with similar art from other mediums but the element of gameplay, interaction etc is not in itself artistic.

Would you say the tactical combat of Jagged Alliance 2 is comparable to Tolkien, or Beethoven? Doesn't it feel wierd to put those things in the same category? Building a clock also requires craft but i don't know if you can compare the mechanism of a good clock to a symphony, or a painting.

I happen to think the writing in Torment, while not the best i've ever encountered, is actually better than some genuine novels i read when i was younger. Maybe not saying much as there's a lot of crappy books out there, but you can certainly make an argument that the art contained in games can be worthy of the appellative. My argument is not against that, i'm just saying the gameplay aspect of games is not an art (in the loftier sense of the word). I don't see what ideal, value, philosophy, emotion or experience can be conveyed by a combat system, or a looting mechanic etc.

I see. This makes sense. My argument would be that the game mechanics evoke a "feeling" and ignite something in your imagination, the way exploring around in Spyro the Dragon does. Reading Tolkien evokes your imagination as well, as you explore Middle Earth and the wonderful characters there. The mechanics would be the means to that evocative end for the art, if it is art. The way Beethoven evokes feelings through his music, etc.

 

[Ash]

My contention is that the thing that makes games games is not an art. Games CAN have art in them, and you can judge and value that art and compare it with similar art from other mediums but the element of gameplay, interaction etc is not in itself artistic.

It absolutely is. If not by its own virtue, then on the grounds that it can enhance the meaning of the more traditional artistic elements in ways not otherwise possible, and make it all come together into something truly transcendental. Again, play Silent Hill or something. It's pretty cut and dry with that one, doesn't take a genius to comprehend. Someone hog tie this fool until he learns.

 

[GamerCat_]

My contention is that the thing that makes games games is not an art. Games CAN have art in them, and you can judge and value that art and compare it with similar art from other mediums but the element of gameplay, interaction etc is not in itself artistic.

Would you say the tactical combat of Jagged Alliance 2 is comparable to Tolkien, or Beethoven? Doesn't it feel wierd to put those things in the same category?

Mister Norwood's shadow weighs heavily upon you.

Building a clock also requires craft but i don't know if you can compare the mechanism of a good clock to a symphony, or a painting.

How would you (yes you, lyric suite) compare a symphony to a painting?

I happen to think the writing in Torment, while not the best i've ever encountered, is actually better than some genuine novels i read when i was younger. Maybe not saying much as there's a lot of crappy books out there, but you can certainly make an argument that the art contained in games can be worthy of the appellative. My argument is not against that, i'm just saying the gameplay aspect of games is not an art (in the loftier sense of the word).

You still haven't explained what art is, but you've made it abundantly clear that this is a value judgement more than a semantic distinction. Though you take a stab at suggesting it is both (I think just to justify the former).

I don't see what ideal, value, philosophy, emotion or experience can be conveyed by a combat system, or a looting mechanic etc.

Phrased this way the answer almost feels too obvious. So naturally nobody here will get it.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Are you actually converting to Islam or is that a le based exaggeration?

I was trolling with that thread.

I'm sympathetic to Islam and i consider it a true religion revealed by God because of my Perennialist leanings, but convertion is another matter. Many Perennialists did convert to Islam but that's only because they were looking for an initiation. Schuon is on record saying the religion didn't really matter to him. He became a Sufi because he couldn't be an Hindu due to the caste system. Literally his words.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Cant be given equivalents, as they do very different things, as you acknowledge. You cant really compare MGS to Thief, well you can, but they are very different experiences. Tenchu maybe. I'm certainly fond of it though it is rough around the edges and with a "story in games is like the plot in porn" approach to story, but it certainly has value elsewhere. And also was the first 3D stealth game, beating Thief to that accolade by half a year or something. But ultimately it wouldn't be the game I tried to present as an equivalent, MGS3 or something might be more appropriate despite some of Kojima's less tasteful storytelling choices. Victoria 2 there isn't really anything like that I'm aware of. Jagged Alliance, Deus Ex...the Japanese are not very simulation-oriented (and that is fine). And so on. I did list around the same number of impressive Jap games one must check out a few pages back. Though I excluded Dark Souls (which would otherwise be included) as LS had already played those. And I would make edits in an attempt to present the purest list of Japanese incline possible. It was rushed. Maybe even going one step further and possibly consulting with other well-versed gamers to truly come up with a good list as I certainly haven't played them all.

Also, Carmageddon is the odd game out there, dont you think?

Carmageddon is a brilliant game, there's nothing like it. Huge, open maps that can be tackled in a number of ways; creative racing and stylish driving; impeccable physics. There are racing games where you can do stunts and such, but you're constrained to the track. Carmageddon is about total freedom. GTA tried to copy it, but it's not even close in what it allows you to do inside a vehicle. Carmageddon 2 is also great, a couple of tracks are probably even a bit better, but was a decline in terms of gameplay and tone.

About MGS and Thief, yes, different things. MGS V has the most polished stealth, a fantastic engine that could handle everything, but I see it as a military infiltration game. Thief has that interior level design that you can only compare to other great PC games like Deus Ex. Tenchu is good, but not on the same level as either Thief or the best MGS, imo.

Anyway, that was not a list of "best games evar", only games that do something very, very well and haven't been bested in that regard, afaik.

 

[Spike]

Are you actually converting to Islam or is that a le based exaggeration?

I was trolling with that thread.

I'm sympathetic to Islam and i consider it a true religion reveleaded by God because of my Perennialist leanings, but convertion is another matter. Many Perennialists did convert to Islam but that's only because they were looking for an initiation. Schuon is on record saying the religion didn't really matter to him. He became a Sufi because he couldn't be an Hindu due to the caste system. Literally his words.

Interesting. I can get down for a Perennialist alliance bloc (from the Catholic wing) in USA to kick out the heathen materialists from power or cultural influence.

Re: games as art, you are bringing up good considerations. To answer you further, the looting mechanic, combat system, etc., all work together with the control of the character, movement, setting, art design, music (or lack thereof), level design, enemy encounters/design/placement/etc. to immerse you into an experience the same way that music or a play, or novel, or poetry, or etc. would. That is my argument. Please point out to me if any of it is ridiculous, but I do not think it is. I would like to see what you have to say.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

That doesn't mean anything

Only in your mind because you bought into the Perennialist delusion that the Renaissance is the origin of the destruction of Western Civilization
Never mind the fact that the cultural movement of the Renaissance sprang naturally from the culture of the Late Middle Ages (i.e. it didn't appear in opposition)

The Renaissance had a wide range of artistic movements, which Naturalism was one of, and the Naturalism of the 19th century was distinct from the Naturalism of the 15th century, as the latter suffered many changes before it became the former
Besides Modernism was also, above all else, a reaction to the rapid changes of the industrial age of which the Renaissance isn't responsible for
So yes, Modernism beginning centuries after the Renaissance does mean something and it does matter, because it couldn't be a rebellion agaisnt that age
And there's still the 2nd part of my argument

The Church supporting the Renaissance was a mistake, yes.

Again a product of your Perennialist narrative
And again it goes back to the "Whose inward understanding?" question, as clearly the Perennialist understanding is antagonistic to the Church's

It's also funny to me that Perennialists should dislike the Renaissance this much, given that their philosophy is a weak "spiritual successor" to Renaissance Platonism

All ancient art is made the same way with almost no exception.

because formalism in art was their degeneration first.

Source: "My ass. Just trust me bro."

They all share the same root.

Now you have to prove this, which you can't because that would mean having to peruse all modernist art, which is unlikely for a single person
But given the sheer diversity of the movement, common sense holds this notion as virtually impossible

Also your claim extends to Perennialism as well

In reality, it was a descension.

Says you
The literary academic consensus says otherwise for a long time now
So again who is correct?

Again, the perspecive on "Ascension" was varied
For some it was viewed only through secular lens - some even purely materialistic but funnily those works are usually the ones less remembered - for others it was very much spiritual growth and rejuvenation
One such very famous example in poetry was TS Elliot's "The Waste Land", which took great inspiration from Eastern mysticism and even attempted a union with Western
Kinda like Perennialism
Really, and though you may try to deny it, Perennialists are Modernist reactionaries par excellence