The Japs do everything better

[Lyric Suite]

A very ethnonarcissistic way of saying the only creativity American video game developers were capable of that anybody cared about was mostly incidental to a single-minded pursuit of creating technical toys and gadgets.

It's the pursuit of an ideal compared to the mere outpouring of energy for it's own sake, which is what Japanese gaming is mostly about. It all goes back to what i said originally.

Computing technology came into being in the first place because of the same impulse that drove western developers to experiment and push the limits of thechnology and what can be done through simlation. You are literally arguing against the very thing that allowed video games to exist in the first place.

I think you just don't want to admit that there's something westerners are better at than easterners because you have a fetish for the latter. Everybody with two braincells can easily see western games are on average more creative than Japanese games, and it's possible that your attack on the very idea of "creativity" is just an attempt to deflect this question. "Sure maybe westerners are more creative but you know what creativity doesn't even exist lel". The ultimate weaboo cope. The fact Japanese games are often better executed within their specific scope is not enough for you, you simply HAVE to believe western games are all worthless or else your faith in the supremacy of Japan would start to wane.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Berserk i not only "try hard violence".

I believe the point i was responding to was that those anime can't be for children because they are too violent, to which i replied violence is very much a juvenile thing.

In so far as the artistic merit of those animes, it's all kiddie stuff compared to real cinema. I don't understand how this is even a point of contention. Next you'll tell me mangas are comparable to real literature.

 

[GamerCat_]

A very ethnonarcissistic way of saying the only creativity American video game developers were capable of that anybody cared about was mostly incidental to a single-minded pursuit of creating technical toys and gadgets.

It's the pursuit of an ideal compared to the mere outpouring of energy for it's own sake,

We could say the same of any enduring habit or tendency. You are an ethnonarcissist to the point of making white people look bad.

which is what Japanese gaming is mostly about. It all goes back to what i said originally.

What you said remains retarded and you persuaded nobody.

Computing technology came into being in the first place because of the same impulse that drove western developers to experiment and push the limits of thechnology and what can be done through simlation. You are literally arguing against the very thing that allowed video games to exist in the first place.

What is "arguing against" supposed to mean here? Am I saying programmers should all be lined up and shot? Words mean things. Think, you nigger who came out the wrong colour.

I think you just don't want to admit that there's something westerners are better at than easterners because you have a fetish for the latter.

The programmer autist is undeniably a white type. I have been saying this over and over again. But you don't seem capable of comprehending a negatively skewed read of anything with more nuance than "he must want to annihilate this".

Everybody with two braincells can easily see western games are on average more creative than Japanese games,

What have I told you about that stupid word?

and it's possible that your attack on the very idea of "creativity" is just an attempt to deflect this question.

You're deflecting my critique right now. A worthless statement is proven by repetition. You aren't saying anything when you say "more creative".

"Sure maybe westerners are more creative but you know what creativity doesn't even exist lel". The ultimate weaboo cope. The fact Japanese games are often better executed within their specific scope is not enough for you, you simply HAVE to believe western games are all worthless or else your faith in the supremacy of Japan would start to wane.

Several of my favourite games are Western. One is even American.

 

[GamerCat_]

Berserk i not only "try hard violence".

I believe the point i was responding to was that those anime can't be for children because they are too violent, to which i replied violence is very much a juvenile thing.

In so far as the artistic merit of those animes, it's all kiddie stuff compared to real cinema. I don't understand how this is even a point of contention. Next you'll tell me mangas are comparable to real literature.

This is by far the most juvenile argument I have yet seen on the 'dex. I will now insult you with some condescension.

 

[Lyric Suite]

BTW, to use an analogy here, let's consider for the moment what would happen if the entire scientific community was told that their only reason for being was to produce commercial products. No point in speculation, experimentation or testing out theories or following a specific vision. That's what i'm saying happened to western gaming development with the advent of consoles.

The fact on the other side of the globe we have a group of people who managed to find a way to make something out creating commercial products, getting really clever in how the products operate and function doesn't mean that you can force the first group to do the same. Even as a player, i already felt the difference. Deus Ex was a game that was created following this impulse to experiment and look at the possibilities inherent within gaming as a form. By the time the sequel came out, that spirit or ideal had been squashed. There's a very visible shift that can be felt in western gaming the second the Xbox was released. Looking at Human Revolution you can just feel how every mechanic has been standardized and how much the game feels like it's centered around said mechanics. There's no sense of freedom or possibility for emergent gameplay in modern western games, no sense what you are experiencing in the game is actually concrete in some way, or that what you are doing is real interactivity. It's literally press this to do this and that's all there is. Western games are product now, they are no longer a science.

 

[Morenatsu.]

Yeah but like jap games have cats

 

[GamerCat_]

BTW, to use an anlogy here, let's consider for the moment what would happen if the entire scientific community was told that their only reason for being was to produce commercial products.

The de facto current state of things. With the additional demoralising existential factor in that we aren't even a coherent commercial society. We are incidentally commerical, primarily suicidal.

No point in speculation, experimentation or testing out theories or following a specific vision. That's what i'm saying happened to western gaming development with the advent of consoles.

Like "art" and "creative" it seems that "point" begins and ends wherever most flatters your sensibilities. There is no point to this very specific kind of person, who yes indeed, did drive the American (when we say PC here we mean American PC) industry. If we took your words to have their general rather than this very specific meaning all art except for sattvacore computer programmer play would be pointless.

What is the point of a Peter Greenaway film? If we can answer that we also have an answer for what the point of Japanese video games is. Or does mister high art true cinema believe that Prospero's Books is pointless?

The fact on the other side of the globe we have a group of people who managed to find a way to make something out creating commercial products, getting really clever in how the products operate and function doesn't mean that you can force the first group to do the same.

I have done more to lay out the distinction between these two classes of people than anybody else here. We could even say the distinction is mine. What do you have to tell me about it? Yes, obviously these people do not flourish when working in a conventional institutional pop-art machine. They only incidentally make pop-art working within a kind of more fun STEM team and project model. I have not said a single thing to suggest my understanding of the matter is otherwise. Your understanding would probably not have gotten this far without me. Look at you, using words like "form" now. I already own this place.

Even as a player, i already felt the difference. Deus Ex was a game that was created following this impulse to experiment and look at the possibilities inherent within gaming as a form. By the time the sequel came out, that spirit or ideal had been squashed.

Sure, but that's not why Invisible War is boring. Or at least Invisible War didn't have to be boring. It's boring because shartmericans are terrible at making things as artists. Give the old Deus Ex engine, or the Invisible War one to an interesting person and you'll get something cool, without the STEMspastic "can we code more?" drive.

Did you ever hear about the schizophrenic Deus Ex modder who was making his own Invisible War in the old engine? A friend of mine played that and told me it was actually coming along quite brilliantly.

Of course if we could go back in time and I had total control of the industry, I would have STEMbugs create forms, and then artists fill them. The accidental state of the relationship in gaming between America and Japan. America creates a pointless empty or crappily filled technical novelty, Japan turns it into something of human interest. This is the history of gaming.

There's a very visible shift that can be felt in western gaming the second the Xbox was released. Looking at Human Revolution you can just feel how every mechanic has been standardized and how much the game feels like it's centered around said mechanics. There's no sense of freedom or possibility for emergent gameplay in modern western games, no sense what you are experiencing in the game is actually concrete in some way, or that what you are doing is real interactivity. It's literally press this to do this and that's all there is. Western games are product now, they are no longer a science.

I think we're being rather loose with our terminology here. I vaguely get what you mean by "product" and "science", but like every other term at the heart of your ideas, I imagine they'll quickly become incoherent if poked. And your whole weepy middle of this quote is also quite wobbly. Want to try it again?

 

[Cryomancer]

Next you'll tell me mangas are comparable to real literature.

Nope. Never would say it. Literature allows you to explore things much more in depth. But most western entertainment is not Tolkien tier too. In fact, at least in JApan you have entertainment for many different target audiences. In west, you only find entertainment for the Baizuo audience. Sure, some mangas like Bastard!! only appeal to sex and violence, but still better than only appealing to social justice.

15 years ago I used to watch/read much more western stuff. Now, I barely watch western stuff.

And with video games, the same shit.

Some people here said that Elden Ring decayed compared to Demon Souls and early Dark Souls. But the "decline" is NOTHING if we compare to the western decline. Compare Starfield with Morrowind.

 

[soutaiseiriron]

In so far as the artistic merit of those animes, it's all kiddie stuff compared to real cinema. I don't understand how this is even a point of contention. Next you'll tell me mangas are comparable to real literature.

counterpoint:

 

[Lyric Suite]

In so far as the artistic merit of those animes, it's all kiddie stuff compared to real cinema. I don't understand how this is even a point of contention. Next you'll tell me mangas are comparable to real literature.

counterpoint:

Animu is not cinema. It's kiddie shit.

I'm starting to think weaboos need a violent threshing to wake up from their delusion and make them join the real world.

 

[Socrates]

 

[GamerCat_]

Animu is not cinema. It's kiddie shit.

And what is cinema? One day you really ought to make a statement that rests on something.

 

[Shadowfang]

The question if something is art or not is meaningless, because whatever the answer you get, will leave you in the exactly the same place.
If a banana nailed to a wall, with a nine inch nail, is art or not is irrelevant. What it matters is what is it good for. Is it pleasing to look at? Does it has any purpose?

This modern definition of art, that doesn't distinguish the concept of craftsmanship from the work of art is meaningless.
We shouldn't be asking if Game X is a art, or a work of art, but if it is good, and where it is good and where it isn't.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Like "art" and "creative" it seems that "point" begins and ends wherever most flatters your sensibilities.

He says, while downplaying and denigrating anything that doesn't conform to his own narrow sensibilities.

Sure, but that's not why Invisible War is boring. Or at least Invisible War didn't have to be boring. It's boring because shartmericans are terrible at making things as artists.

Being smug and acting superior towards America is a game midwits like to play because they don't know shit about what they are actually talking about. It's like Fedorabots making fun of Christians. It's a sure sign of being a pseudo intellectual.

Weaboos in particular are particularly insufferable because if you actually probe them about this subject all they know is animu and vydia.

I'm not saying that there aren't certain problems with American culture but to say they can't do art despite the sheer volume of their creative output on pretty much every field under the sun is just absurd.

Here's a fun challenge. Make a list of the greatest artists of modern Japan without mentioning a single manga, animu or video game, then take that and pit it against America.

 

[JB_0x0003]

I think I have a decent grasp on the subject, though I admit to not being an expert. For what it's worth, while I appreciate Schuon, I think Burton's Batman films were better.

It's only because you haven't been keeping up on your evil.pdf readings. Slacker.

Speaking of readings, have you looked into anything I recommended you? You expressed interest in notable works by asian cultures, and seem quite open-minded, so I'm surprised you haven't mentioned it.

I'm sorry, i either missed or don't remember the post you are talking about.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/the-japs-do-everything-better.149848/page-14#post-8934700

here you go
offer still open, even if it would be slightly more effort than hitting the search button

 

[Lyric Suite]

The question if something is art or not is meaningless, because whatever the answer you get, will leave you in the exactly the same place.
If a banana nailed to a wall, with a nine inch nail, is art or not is irrelevant. What it matters is what is it good for. Is it pleasing to look at? Does it has any purpose?

This modern definition of art, that doesn't distinguish the concept of craftsmanship from the work of art is meaningless.
We shouldn't be asking if Game X is a art, or a work of art, but if it is good, and where it is good and where it isn't.

Well, part of the problem is that some people have a different definition of what a video game is than my own.

For me, a game is the gameplay. All the other stuff, the story, art or music, are just extras that have been grafted onto the medium but are not really part of it. For some people, a video game is the whole thing, including those elements.

 

[JB_0x0003]

The question if something is art or not is meaningless, because whatever the answer you get, will leave you in the exactly the same place.
If a banana nailed to a wall, with a nine inch nail, is art or not is irrelevant. What it matters is what is it good for. Is it pleasing to look at? Does it has any purpose?

This modern definition of art, that doesn't distinguish the concept of craftsmanship from the work of art is meaningless.
We shouldn't be asking if Game X is a art, or a work of art, but if it is good, and where it is good and where it isn't.

art is when it's in your english class and tradpilled and the more tradpilled and english class it is the more art it is
This means it rises to something beyond ourselves to the sublime etc etc because your teacher said so

it has nothing to do with whether or not it's cool or pretty
That's why this is for anime pedofaggots:

And this is for enlightened free thinkers:

Hope that helps!

 

[Shadowfang]

All the other stuff, the story, art or music, are just extras that have been grafted onto the medium but are not really part of it.

Because you can enjoy them individually?
But, and if you mean that, isn't that valid for movies aswell, since you can enjoy the soundtrack alone?
It won't be the same because a track can have more meaning if it is associated with a certain scene, but the same is true for a videogame.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

I think the devs find it genuinely fun to create complex, interwoven systems like that. They're building a thing, they're proud of it. It's easier to explain it from their perspective; after all, they're autistic coders, fun for them is making code work. The inevitable crisis manifests in the players. Most people who'd play a game like this agree it's fun to build a solar-powered, armored death mobile, or to mutate into an octopus after drinking sewer water. Where else can you do that? Not everyone wants to watch their vitamin intake so they don't get sick, or spend hours organizing their pockets with keybinds.

I don't think there's a ready answer for what is "too much" or "not enough", it's highly specific. With these iterative development games, the player is forced to confront the question of "what is this game about, anyway?". Many decide to rollback to a previous version, to install mods, install a forked variant of the game, etc. Something similar to this can be seen in mainstream games with long modding histories. Vanilla Morrowind is often considered just a starting point by fans. From their viewpoint, the game has been in development for 20 years. The choice of mods often says a lot about the player.

The white man has this problem with building the World on a Wire. The Japanese never seem to have a problem with what is this about? It's indeed all highly specific. Too much or not enough. It depends why you're working. A lot of western PC games are basically a white guy fucking around at a computer, following the patterns and trails of game design but actually just making stuff. Trying to veer these two tendencies into each other haphazardly tends to have questionable results. Things that are fun to fuck around with until you hit the why-wall? Maybe people should consider explicitly developing these kinds of projects as engines or tools rather than games. Then sooner or later some more artsy autist will realise it's perfect for his really specific vision (not necessarily a Japanese person). The project zomboid team obviously don't know what they're doing beyond adding features to an engine. Never make the story. Some other guy has a zombie movie in his head he'll never get to film. Maybe he can crowbar it into shape with their engine. Who knows?

I wrote a bit of this post and then wandered off to other stuff so I'm a bit scattered. Another discussion about the possibilities of modding in relation to artists and technicians could be a lot of fun.

"The white man has this problem" Is it really a problem, though? Fucking around at a computer is not incidental to making games, it's at the heart of the endeavor. Videogames are computer programs.

No computer genius who's into videogames wants to make a "tool", they want to make games. You don't need to wait until some "artsy autist" with a "vision" comes along to tell them what to do. If you think that, it speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding, as least as far as Western games are concerned.

Then again, you'd rather read the Fallout wiki than playing the game, so I believe we're approaching an unsurmountable barrier somewhere.

 

[JB_0x0003]

The question if something is art or not is meaningless, because whatever the answer you get, will leave you in the exactly the same place.
If a banana nailed to a wall, with a nine inch nail, is art or not is irrelevant. What it matters is what is it good for. Is it pleasing to look at? Does it has any purpose?

This modern definition of art, that doesn't distinguish the concept of craftsmanship from the work of art is meaningless.
We shouldn't be asking if Game X is a art, or a work of art, but if it is good, and where it is good and where it isn't.

Well, part of the problem is that some people have a different definition of what a video game is than my own.

For me, a game is the gameplay. All the other stuff, the story, art or music, are just extras that have been grafted onto the medium but are not really part of it. For some people, a video game is the whole thing, including those elements.

Wait, what do you even get out of RPGs then? 99% of them use their 'gameplay' as flavor and to give the sense of time passing to aid the meat of the game (cool stuff happening). Do you just like watching an xp bar go up or optimizing spreadsheets?

 

[Morenatsu.]

I find this aggression towards animu highly distressing!

 

[Louis_Cypher]

People usually consider a cinematic musical score to be part of the full package of a piece of cinema, so I can see why people regard a game's soundtrack and art department direction to be part of the game. The dfference is that a game is meant to be enjoyed as an activity, a medium with possibilities in it's own right, in the moment - so when a game is played for it's story, outside the moment, it often becomes unrelated busywork to 'unlock' said story.

They were designed to be played as they come. So when you put a story onto a game, it's akin to locking the next chapter of a book behind busywork, the game can't serve both masters.

Here on RPGCodex in particular, we know that games fundamentally rest upon gameplay. So, in the 'chasing cinema' phenomenon, the industry pushes out a lot of games where the art direction is interesting, where the musical score is interesting, where they chase the medium of cinema - a medium in which a person passively watches the action - but betray the possibilities of gaming as a separate medium, becoming essentially a film locked behind periodic work - the underlying mechanics are absolute dogshit, and the result is a gilded dogshit.

I'm divided on whether a game can be art, because there have been times where I did enjoy a game as if it was literature (albiet what people would consider pulpy literature perhaps), enjoyed the gameplay too, and the two even complimented.

On the whole though, I prefer to play something with no pretentions to being anything other than a game now, usually a sim, because it so rarely works out. Something like a 4X or space sim or RTS or boomer shooter where you aren't going to be bothered by people's shit pretentions of grafting literature or cinema onto a game.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Wait, what do you even get out of RPGs then? 99% of them use their 'gameplay' as flavor and to give the sense of time passing to aid the meat of the game (cool stuff happening). Do you just like watching an xp bar go up or optimizing spreadsheets?

And that is why 99% of RPGs are shit, as the Codex is well aware

 

[GamerCat_]

Like "art" and "creative" it seems that "point" begins and ends wherever most flatters your sensibilities.

He says, while downplaying and denigrating anything that doesn't conform to his own narrow sensibilities.

My point, is very particular. I am asking your for something very specific over and over again. Your point, could be inserted anywhere in this discussion in response to anybody and would mean equally little in each case. You know in old proper English debating rules a point not addressed is considered to be conceded. That's for a very good reason.

Sure, but that's not why Invisible War is boring. Or at least Invisible War didn't have to be boring. It's boring because shartmericans are terrible at making things as artists.

Being smug and acting superior towards America is a game midwits like to play because they don't know shit about what they are actually talking about. It's like Fedorabots making fun of Christians. It's a sure sign of being a pseudo intellectual.


Weaboos in particular are particularly insufferable because if you actually probe them about this subject all they know is animu and vydia.

Probe then. Out me.

The point stands uncontested. When given a complete form to fill with their own new ideas American efforts are almost uniformly terrible. Give Japan a relatively static formula premise to iterate upon over and over again and they give you Final Fantasy.



Give Americans a formula to iterate upon and they give you Call of Duty Modern Warfare III (2).



By picking Call of Duty I am actually trying to be charitable. There have been times when this worked in pieces. I think Modern Warfare 2 (the first time) actually had good pieces in it. It didn't make sense on the whole and was about nothing, but in moments and scenes it was very striking. This is America at the top of its game trying to fill this role.

I'm not saying that there aren't certain problems with American culture but to say they can't do art despite the sheer volume of their creative output on pretty much every field under the sun is just absurd.

America has massive amounts of infrastructure for the production of pop-art. But it is at the same time atrocious at putting this at the disposal of good artists. Most good American artists have to kind of get away with it. If an artist is allowed at the wheel it's probably an accident. Video games are a massively scaled operation. They don't tolerate many accidents of this kind. There are no artfags allowed to do anything of note in American video games. While in Japan it's pretty much the rule that a big project should have an artfag in chief who is actually allowed to lead, direct, and decide.

America produces creative people just as well as Japan if not maybe even potentially better. But it also hates them.

Here's a fun challenge. Make a list of the greatest artists of modern Japan without mentioning a single manga, animu or video game, then take that and pit it against America.

Why would I list media when you're asking for names? Figuring you mean artists working within those mediums, why would I exclude them? And from there, since Japan is a very multimedia culture, is an artist who has worked in a your high school english teacher approved field like film be excluded if he has ever worked with a video game production?

Is Takeshi Kitano not a real artist because he did voice acting for a Yakuza game? Is he compromised? Unlike an American man of cinema and integrity like say, JJ Abrams?

Are you under the impression that the Japanese don't make anything but manga, anime, or video games? Or that they are weak outside of trash for nerds? This is the internet. Have you not noticed that everyone's favourite serious author on man-stuff is Yukio Mishima? Despite the cultural and translation barriers people find that he speaks to them more than Hemmingway now. But I'm sure you have some pithy sentence with which you can annihilate one of the most enduring writers of the 20th century.

The Japanese are culturally self sufficient. Their film industry didn't even feel a bump during Covid. You might know them mostly via their most popular exports. They produce more great artists we've never heard of (even excluding certain popular fields for no coherent reason) than most countries will at all.

How are we supposed to create a sufficient list of artists for either culture? What an absurd question. What are you hoping to prove here? Like everything you say about art you're so wrong that you can't be succinctly answered. This is layered stupidity. What could you possibly have in mind on the issue currently that asking me to do this made any kind of sense? I like Takeshi Kitano, I like Yukio Mishima, I like Ryuichi Sakamoto, I like Masaki Kobayashi, I like Seijin Suzuki, I like Atsuo, do you see how quickly this is going to get beyond silly? And yes, I could also make a very long list of American artists I'm fond of. Even excluding comics, animation, and video games.

 

[GamerCat_]

I think the devs find it genuinely fun to create complex, interwoven systems like that. They're building a thing, they're proud of it. It's easier to explain it from their perspective; after all, they're autistic coders, fun for them is making code work. The inevitable crisis manifests in the players. Most people who'd play a game like this agree it's fun to build a solar-powered, armored death mobile, or to mutate into an octopus after drinking sewer water. Where else can you do that? Not everyone wants to watch their vitamin intake so they don't get sick, or spend hours organizing their pockets with keybinds.

I don't think there's a ready answer for what is "too much" or "not enough", it's highly specific. With these iterative development games, the player is forced to confront the question of "what is this game about, anyway?". Many decide to rollback to a previous version, to install mods, install a forked variant of the game, etc. Something similar to this can be seen in mainstream games with long modding histories. Vanilla Morrowind is often considered just a starting point by fans. From their viewpoint, the game has been in development for 20 years. The choice of mods often says a lot about the player.

The white man has this problem with building the World on a Wire. The Japanese never seem to have a problem with what is this about? It's indeed all highly specific. Too much or not enough. It depends why you're working. A lot of western PC games are basically a white guy fucking around at a computer, following the patterns and trails of game design but actually just making stuff. Trying to veer these two tendencies into each other haphazardly tends to have questionable results. Things that are fun to fuck around with until you hit the why-wall? Maybe people should consider explicitly developing these kinds of projects as engines or tools rather than games. Then sooner or later some more artsy autist will realise it's perfect for his really specific vision (not necessarily a Japanese person). The project zomboid team obviously don't know what they're doing beyond adding features to an engine. Never make the story. Some other guy has a zombie movie in his head he'll never get to film. Maybe he can crowbar it into shape with their engine. Who knows?

I wrote a bit of this post and then wandered off to other stuff so I'm a bit scattered. Another discussion about the possibilities of modding in relation to artists and technicians could be a lot of fun.

"The white man has this problem" Is it really a problem, though? Fucking around at a computer is not incidental to making games, it's at the heart of the endeavor. Videogames are computer programs.

It's a problem in certain contexts. Or we could also say it leads to certain problems. One example being, when you're making a computer program to realise an idea, you build until it is realised, and then you stop. While a computer program which is a fascination of its programmer can just grow like cancer forever. Leading to the decade of early access, the game which is just kind of torn from its programmers and forced it with what they have as a mauled and incomplete piece of an impossible ideal whole, etc.

No computer genius who's into videogames wants to make a "tool", they want to make games.

Sure, but then we can go into what a game is, whether certain ideas of games are perhaps more valuable or interesting than others to us, etc. I like "video games", but I have rather little interest in actual games as contrived challenges. I like multimedia art. It's kind of a problem that these ideas are so conceptually bound together in such poor language.

You don't need to wait until some "artsy autist" with a "vision" comes along to tell them what to do.

Of course not. The artfags came later.

If you think that, it speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding, as least as far as Western games are concerned.

I don't, but I appreciate your concern.

Then again, you'd rather read the Fallout wiki than playing the game, so I believe we're approaching an unsurmountable barrier somewhere.

Have you played Fallout recently? And did you see the state of the wiki 12 years ago?