The Japs do everything better

[Ash]

LOL. No. The PS1 port of PC games like Diablo 1 proves otherwise.

One goddamn shitty port doesn't prove a thing, jesus what a stupid argument. Also diablo is trash for retards, so extra fitting lol.

PS1 had some pretty well done PC ports...but that isn't really what I was talking about. I was talking about the Japanese, the native games rivalling the PC golden age. But yeah, the good ports too. They count for something.

70 mi and not even a character creator...

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, you can't be this dim!? You're just messing around for sure.

 

[Cross]

Lol Final Fantasy PS1 had more significant graphics than any 90s PC game. Get a grip! You don't even know. FF7/8/9 budgets = 70 million each or something absurd like that. A significant chunk of that pushing the envelope with graphics. Unreal budget? Probably like 1 million. Doom? $500,000. Not even 1 million.

They had massive budgets, but there was nothing cutting edge about FF7/8/9. A 3D model running around on pre-rendered backgrounds? Alone in the Dark did that in 1992. And that game had monsters chasing you in real-time, whereas FF7/8/9 were still using random encounters.

I guess the graphics within the combat arenas were advanced, but those were separate instances disconnected from the game world that required lengthy loading times each time you started a fight, so it's not all that impressive that they were able to crank up the graphics for those portions of the game.

"mere toys"

Hasn't played a single original playstation game, which was peak tier gaming often on par with the peak of PC gaming, thanks largely to the efforts of its Japanese developers.

Insular as fuck!

Around the same time PC was killing it with FPS - all are pretty much "mere toys". RTS? mere toys, outside of some teaching minor aspects of history like AoE. RPGs? Many of the acclaimed RPGs in that era (e.g Fallout, Torment) are storyfag with the gameplay bordering an afterthought and therefore not transcendental art* the likes of which you could find on playstation. But that's the cuckdex's likes. I find games like Deus Ex, System Shock 2, hell even Thief on the other hand to play more to the medium's strengths and made something special.

*What do I mean by transcendental? I mean all the elements working together: gameplay, music, story, art, and using the medium's strengths to create something truly unique. NOT a storyfag game that has good writing but the gameplay is an afterthought.

The fact that you dismiss Fallout as a storyfag experience makes me suspect you haven't played it, or a lot of other older PC games.

And yes, the PC has a stronger library of classics than consoles. For one, there is more variety, with entire genres like first-person games and strategy games (not just RTS, although there's lots of variety in just that subgenre) being largely exclusive to PC. And the games themselves are more interesting and fun, e.g. Thief's arsenal of trick arrows that let you manipulate the environment is a lot more creative than what console stealth games were doing.

Fuck Planescape Torment. That isn't a real game.

Play Final Fantasy 6 (1994) from start to finish and then claim that's not art, go ahead. The story could not exist without the game, as it is a tale of adventure, struggle, teamwork, and so forth, these elements amplified by the gameplay in a specific way.

Play Silent Hill (1998) and claim that's not art, go ahead. A psychological horror trip like no other, where its gameplay amplifies the whole thing considerably.

You've got that backwards. The stories in those games would remain unchanged if they were carried over to another medium, since they are told through cutscenes and are largely disconnected from the gameplay. The most famous moment in Final Fantasy is the cutscene of Aerith being killed, despite the myriad of resurrection abilities at the player's disposal. In Planescape: Torment your party members are also killed in a dramatic fashion by the antagonist, but the resurrection power the player has can be used to bring them back, since the story in that game is interactive.

 

[Ash]

They had massive budgets, but there was nothing cutting edge about FF7/8/9. A 3D model running around on pre-rendered backgrounds? Alone in the Dark did that in 1992. And that game had monsters chasing you in real-time, whereas FF7/8/9 were still using random encounters.

I'm not even going to justify this retarded comment with a response.

I'll suppose I'll educate you on the fact that random encounters is a perfectly legitimate design choice, not something that is strictly only present due to technical limitations of the 90s. It still is a thing today. It has its value in resource attrition, allowing extensive use of pre-rendered graphics (which will always be visually superior to constant re-rendering) alongside party-based combat, and navigation challenge (the more you suck at navigating the more you have to fight, which also leads to resource attrition over time). Even Wizardry 8 has random encounters despite being a fully 3D game, it's simply legit game design that whiners fail to understand.

And yes, the PC has a stronger library of classics than consoles.

I never said otherwise. What I stated, and I'll elaborate, is the best console games of the 90s (most of them being on PS1, but not all) resulted in a golden age of perhaps equal significance to 90s PC gaming. If you haven't explored both sides of the coin as I have, don't even comment. It's utterly tiresome.

 

[9ted6]

Elden Ring is unironically one of the worst ""RPGs"" ever made.

poll

BG3 is also one of the worst RPGs ever made.

 

[Cryomancer]

One goddamn shitty port doesn't prove a thing

And Ultima series? And Gold box conole ports? And M&M series? M&M VIII - Day of the destroyer got a PS2 port.

 

[Silverfish]

By contrast, i don't think it's possible to make a great PC game under the limitations imposed by consoles.

"Western devs can't make a good game without the absolute best tech available" doesn't make them sound too impressive, does it?

Entire genres that were only possible on PC were wiped out of existance almost overnight.

Pretty impressive that entire genres (on a superior platform made by more talented devs) couldn't compete with Mario and Cloud Strife. Sucks to suck, I guess.

 

[Ash]

One goddamn shitty port doesn't prove a thing

And Ultima series? And Gold box conole ports? And M&M series? M&M VIII - Day of the destroyer got a PS2 port.

What are you talking about? There is only one Ultima game on the PS1 and that is Ultima Underworld. A fantastic port! Gold box none on PS1 (I think). They were a bit old by then. Might & Magic I think there was a game or two but I did not play. PS2? Idgaf about PS2. Never said anything about PS2. And again, my original argument had almost nothing to do with ports...sigh.

Lots of great ports on the system if you must know: Doom, Ultima Underworld, Xcom/UFO, Quake 2, Worms: Armageddon, Star Wars: Dark Forces, Descent, Hexen, Duke Nukem 3D, MDK, Martian Gothic and many more, the list is huge.

 

[Cryomancer]

Pretty impressive that entire genres (on a superior platform made by more talented devs) couldn't compete with Mario and Cloud Strife.

That was never the indent of WRPG devs. Anyway, look to the massive FF7 budget. You can't compare Mc Donalds cultural impact with a local gourmet restaurant. However, in therms of success per amount invested, Morrowind with little to no Marketing was the third most popular game in Original XBOX. Losing only to HALO and Fable. This in a time with much less decentralized information, where marketing was much more important. The team who made Morrowind :

 

[Ash]

Pretty impressive that entire genres (on a superior platform made by more talented devs) couldn't compete with Mario and Cloud Strife. Sucks to suck, I guess.

Don't phrase it like that. 90s PC gaming is extremely competitive with 90s console gaming artistically and/or in quality. I just can't pick which is better overall. So many damn excellent games.

Great, now you have turned it into a popularity contest, as if that means anything related to game quality when it is mostly just a matter of marketing budget, Microsoft abandoning the PC as a gaming platform (they could have made it more accessible if desired, like say Steam has), and the dumb masses inability to grasp the PC as a gaming platform

Honestly, when it comes to this thread's topic, anyone that hasn't played a sizable amount of both PC and console games, especially pre-decline era, should just not contribute....but then there'd be like 3 people left. Oh well.

 

[Silverfish]

Don't phrase it like that. 90s PC gaming is extremely competitive with 90s console gaming artistically and/or in quality.

I completely agree. I just think the "muh consoles" whining is easy to poke fun at.

 

[Tehdagah]

 

[Nostaljaded]

I've been playing a lot of indies in recent years to cover what the industry is failing to provide. Not a single one is Japanese. I tend to stay away from low effort anime art (high effort, like say Akira or Dorohedoro would be great). It seems there's not much indie coming out of Japan in general?

I am still waiting for a high effort anime game.

Why can't Japanese anime-inspired art styles in video games look like this [Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Dorohedoro, Nausicaa: Valley of the Wind, Ninja Scroll, Appleseed, Cyber City OEDO 808 File 2.]

It would be absurdly expensive, but it is doable.

Western (and eastern) gaming was destroyed. Everything is braindead and soulless now... Sellout developers, insanely high development budgets, increased demand for graphics & realism is what killed it. AAA games are multi-million dollar investments of insane proportion, of course they play it safe, try to appeal to all, make it braindead so any simpleton can play, pander and follow trends and so forth. That's too much money to allow to fail, at least that is the mentality. A pathetic & weak one, but it does make reasonable sense...

By your own replies, don't you think you are asking too much for jap games (within their respective budgets)?

If none of these 6 doujin eroges' in this post/Astlibra Revision's production values appeals to you, you either need to recalibrate your doujin expectations OR stay within the confines of publisher-backed/large development studios' jap games.

 

[Morenatsu.]

Well I'm sure there are some developers out there willing to make an animu game for retards like Ash, though only westaboos will ever buy it

 

[GamerCat_]

If we are talking about art in the "higher" sense, i'd say the central element is the nature of what is being expressed combined with the craft (or rather genius) required to bring it about.

So your definition is in agreeance with most common notion (which as been the dominant one since the 17th century)
Which holds that Art is an activity that involves creative or imaginative talent in order to produce a work expressive of conceptual ideas and evaluated by its degree of technical proficiency, beauty and emotional power (plus the merit of said ideas)

Videogames still fit in this definition
Perhaps not all, but I think most do and that one could still make a good argument for the rest

What is being expressed by Tetris?

Logistical excellence
Though admittedly this is closer to the most ancient definition of art (an equivalent of skill or craft), which you have disregarded

Most of what we consider High Art was made under far simpler conceptions of art. During the renaissance painting wasn't really recognised as this unique thing elevated by its expressive element. A painter was a guy who had a workshop and worked on commission. Like making fine furniture. Architecture, I hear, was seen as the closest thing to art as we know it today.

Some will say, what about games like Torment? Isn't the writing in that game art? Yes, the writing is, but not the game.

The game reinforces the themes of the writting and the writting shapes the game

"What can change the nature of a man?"

"Punching rats in a sewer for several hours."

Though the game part is "superior" because it could survive without the writting, while the writting would fail outside of the game as it wasn't created to be independant of the game

You're talking about this how I generally would, but Planet Escape is such a miserable example. It's pathetic as an example of applied game to make a point compared to works like Pathologic, Halo, or Metal Gear Solid.

I am still waiting for a high effort anime game.

Why can't Japanese anime-inspired art styles in video games look like this:

Because these are static shots from films animated in two dimensions. Cel-shading is an old effect that plenty of games have used to create a flat animated look, and I quite like the examples we have. But it never really took. How do you feel about Jet Set Radio and Killer7?





This what you're after? Because this is what rendering 3D elements into something like 2D animation comes out looking like. Maybe with more money and tools and more people trying we could get a few different looks, but fundamentally this seems to be how it works.

"mere toys"

Hasn't played a single original playstation game, which was peak tier gaming often on par with the peak of PC gaming, thanks largely to the efforts of its Japanese developers.

Insular as fuck!

Around the same time PC was killing it with FPS - all are pretty much "mere toys". RTS? mere toys, outside of some teaching minor aspects of history like AoE. RPGs? Many of the acclaimed RPGs in that era (e.g Fallout, Torment) are storyfag with the gameplay bordering an afterthought and therefore not transcendental art* the likes of which you could find on playstation. But that's the cuckdex's likes. I find games like Deus Ex, System Shock 2, hell even Thief on the other hand to play more to the medium's strengths and made something special.

*What do I mean by transcendental? I mean all the elements working together: gameplay, music, story, art, and using the medium's strengths to create something truly unique. NOT a storyfag game that has good writing but the gameplay is an afterthought.

How are you capable of writing this while also completely dismissing Halo?

Well, my argument is that those extra artistic elements that are attached to the game don't make the game itself art.

I think what is happening here is that people are confusing their experience of the game with the actual artistic expressivity of the game's mechanics.

Experience can be a powerful thing for a person but you have to be able to make a distinction between how you feel about something and what that something is objectively. I remember the first time i visited my grandmother's house when i returned from America i had this incredible nostalgic reaction. I used to spend summer there as a little kid and i hadn't seen the place in almost 15 years and every little thing just gave me this great emotional feeling. However, ultimately, objectively speaking, it was just an house like any other.

I think some games can provide the same. Whenever i load up a game i played as a kid i often get this intense feeling. Just hearing the sound effects of such a game can make me feel like i did back then. But, a sound effect is not art, there was no intent to convey any higher meaning or experience through it. It's just a sound effect.

My single favored music track from Torment was this:



This is actually a piece by Vivaldi and was never actually written for the game. Yet, in my head it is now forever associated with the first time i experienced it in the game.

"I am capable of having sentimental reactions to things therefore you are only having sentimental reactions to things".

You're such a stupid disingenuous piece of shit. Why is everyone on long-form text based forums as stupid as everywhere else? What do people who don't or won't think get out of being here?

Addressing specifics of your posts is pointless until you offer a concise definition of what both art and high art are.

 

[Ash]

This what you're after? Because this is what rendering 3D elements into something like 2D animation comes out looking like. Maybe with more money and tools and more people trying we could get a few different looks, but fundamentally this seems to be how it works.

Nope. Not a fan visually-speaking. Cell shaded 3D ugliness is a similar result to typical low effort anime. The game would have to probably be predominantly 2D to look as good as the high-effort anime examples I posted.

"mere toys"

Hasn't played a single original playstation game, which was peak tier gaming often on par with the peak of PC gaming, thanks largely to the efforts of its Japanese developers.

Insular as fuck!

Around the same time PC was killing it with FPS - all are pretty much "mere toys". RTS? mere toys, outside of some teaching minor aspects of history like AoE. RPGs? Many of the acclaimed RPGs in that era (e.g Fallout, Torment) are storyfag with the gameplay bordering an afterthought and therefore not transcendental art* the likes of which you could find on playstation. But that's the cuckdex's likes. I find games like Deus Ex, System Shock 2, hell even Thief on the other hand to play more to the medium's strengths and made something special.

*What do I mean by transcendental? I mean all the elements working together: gameplay, music, story, art, and using the medium's strengths to create something truly unique. NOT a storyfag game that has good writing but the gameplay is an afterthought.

How are you capable of writing this while also completely dismissing Halo?

Sorry, it's pure truth. Halo is an abysmal game. I don't have anything against its multiplayer, fun for what it is (an arena shooter, so not much). But the singleplayer is worthless. Incredibly dumb & worthless gameplay. Throw the bland setting, music, art direction etc etc on top and it's quite the recipe for decline.

 

[Silverfish]

Cell shaded 3D ugliness is a similar result to typical low effort anime. The game would have to probably be predominantly 2D to look as good as the high-effort anime examples I posted.

Yeah, the impression I got from your post would be something along the lines of Symphony of the Night, with modern production values and (of course) a grittier aesthetic.

But the singleplayer is worthless.

Even among hardcore Halo fanboys (I'm one of them), pretty much everyone acknowledges that the campaigns are pretty bad, with a handful (another group I fall into) making an exception for Halo 2.

 

[Ash]

By your own replies, don't you think you are asking too much for jap games (within their respective budgets)?

If none of these 6 doujin eroges' in this post/Astlibra Revision's production values appeals to you, you either need to recalibrate your doujin expectations OR stay within the confines of publisher-backed/large development studios' jap games.

1. Most publisher-backed Japanese games are absolutely terrible these days, completely dishonorable compared to the ART that was achieved back in the day.
2. I dismiss all erotica games out of principle. I am not a virgin dweeb. Sexual content can exist in games but needs to be handled with tact - we're talking like one, maybe two scenes with meaning, like an old action movie. High frequency of sexual content is strongly indicative of dweeb tastes and sensibilities. Defining what that is exactly is not easy, but it's basically unsubstantial, unintelligent design/storytelling/content/art. To be a pretentious fuck. Replacing real content with constant pathetic animated sex, which is just laughable compared to the real thing. I see zero point in it, unless you're a degenerate.
3. I will play Astilibra at some point. Looks pretty good.

But the singleplayer is worthless.

Even among hardcore Halo fanboys (I'm one of them), pretty much everyone acknowledges that the campaigns are pretty bad, with a handful (another group I fall into) making an exception for Halo 2.

First I am hearing of it! Many, like the gamercat, will defend it despite all reason. Good to see otherwise!

I cut out all online multiplayer from my life about 5 years ago, but I do miss it all. Halo Reach was the first in the series I found to be rather fun for its abilities. Especially sprint to speed up the previously painfully slow gameplay.

 

[gabel]

Halo multiplayer is abysmal as well.

 

[Ash]

Since I've shat on the game a lot, Halo Reach Multiplayer I will give 5 minutes and no more than that to defend, as it isn't THAT good. As mentioned, sprint is a game changer from what gaylo used to be, as well as things like jetpacks for obvious reasons. The Shield/health combo works pretty great in multiplayer (terrible in singleplayer) to ensure everyone is on even ground per encounter and item pickups/respawn timers of things like megahealths do not dominate map movement/battle flow, as they dont exist. Everyone spawns with the god tier pistol so again, even ground (almost)! No camping power weapons/they don't dictate outcome of firefights quite as much. The base jump height is quite high, so while it is generally slowed down at least z-axis freedom is not restricted like in those military shooters. Throw on top all the misc gameplay notables like jump pads, grav shafts, dynamic power shield generators (cover you can shoot to temporarily destroy), vehicles, alongside some pretty good map design, and it's really not a bad arena shooter. Also, there is something about its grenades mixed with its low gravity component that is quite satisfying. Well, not "something". Its grenades are unique in that they have a really long detonation timer, *except* the timer is shortened to 1 second or so after the first bounce. This results in very skillful grenade use at both short and long range (low gravity makes them go very far), deflection must always be factored to control the detonation, and it's just fun. If there is anything other mutliplayer shooters should steal from Halo, it's this. Small thing, and possibly done in another game before, but if so I am not aware of it. These super fun grenades are a staple of your arsenal as you always spawn with two and more can be found in the arena. Lastly, while it is slow-paced, this results in fairer firefights. You're far less likely to be jumped by a player halfway through a skirmish with another player; it's easier to predict where everyone is at all times (radar also helps for people behind) as everyone isn't running around at lightspeed. Especially since most of the maps are also pretty open. The best praise I can give it is game balance. It's quite impressive in that regard. And pretty much all of this doesn't apply to the singleplayer in any meaningful way. The singleplayer is total shit, as is standard.

 

[Lyric Suite]

"Western devs can't make a good game without the absolute best tech available" doesn't make them sound too impressive, does it?

That's not even remotely what i said don't play dumb now.

Pretty impressive that entire genres (on a superior platform made by more talented devs) couldn't compete with Mario and Cloud Strife. Sucks to suck, I guess.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I FUCKING SAID.

Are consoltards this demended?

You guys can't follow arguments, and seem to think every time somebody doesn't mindlessly slobber over your precious Japofags games is somehow a personal attack. You are not helping your case with this bullshit, you are just demonstrating you are brainless fanboys.

To explain again, western developers were drawn to a specific ideal. That ideal isn't compatible with the consolefag way of doing things. I don't give a fuck about Mario. No western developer ever had the slighest intention of competing with that kind of shit. They have no feeling for it. It doesn't compute in their brain, because for them games were a means to explore possibilities and push things forward, it's not about releasing the same thing over and over until the dawn of time, and to be forced to do things that way merely sapped any inspiration they ever had.

Consoles destroyed western gaming because the platform is too closed an enviorment. Even if it's possible to get around it's limitations just from a psychological point of view the advent of multiplatform development probably demoralized western devopers in the first place.

 

[Modron]

Sigh. Console gaming died around the same time. But as usual you only look at it through your narrow lense and continue to talk. Console game != garbage, as a rule. You literally have one in your signature (edit: nope, multiple console games in the sig). GAMING died spiritually, as a whole, unilaterally, in the mid 2000s. Console games today are nothing like those in the 90s, just as PC games today are nothing like those in the 90s. Just stop! It's frustratingly dumb. Especially when the decline and direction of both PC and console gaming was largely driven by PC developers in the 2000s wth the Xbox.

Handhelds had their golden age in the 2000s because you could still have small teams making games for the GBA, the DS, and to a lesser extent the PsP.

 

[Lyric Suite]

There's many RTS on console, there's many city builders

I'd rather stab my dick with a fork than play an RTS with a controller.

 

[Morenatsu.]

Wow, we're gonna have two Halo threads now.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Why is that shit game even a point of contention?

 

[GamerCat_]

This what you're after? Because this is what rendering 3D elements into something like 2D animation comes out looking like. Maybe with more money and tools and more people trying we could get a few different looks, but fundamentally this seems to be how it works.

Nope. Not a fan visually-speaking. Cell shaded 3D ugliness is a similar result to typical low effort anime. The game would have to probably be predominantly 2D to look as good as the high-effort anime examples I posted.

Do you want things that look as good or like what you consider high-effort anime?

If you want a three dimensional real time running and rendered video game to look like deliberately staged and constructed two dimensional images you might as well ask for video games "to look like real".

How are you capable of writing this while also completely dismissing Halo?

Sorry, it's pure truth. Halo is an abysmal game. I don't have anything against its multiplayer, fun for what it is (an arena shooter, so not much). But the singleplayer is worthless. Incredibly dumb & worthless gameplay. Throw the bland setting, music, art direction etc etc on top and it's quite the recipe for decline.

You seem to be lucid everywhere I observe you until this game comes up, so it should probably be left be whenever you're present. There's no getting through here. My answer to these claims is in the other thread. You were there.

But the singleplayer is worthless.

Even among hardcore Halo fanboys (I'm one of them), pretty much everyone acknowledges that the campaigns are pretty bad, with a handful (another group I fall into) making an exception for Halo 2.

I consider most Halo fans to be cretinous morons for this reason.

To explain again, western developers were drawn to a specific ideal. That ideal isn't compatible with the consolefag way of doing things. I don't give a fuck about Mario. No western developer ever had the slighest intention of competing with that kind of shit.

They have no feeling for it. It doesn't compute in their brain, because for them games were a means to explore possibilities and push things forward, it's not about releasing the same thing over and over until the dawn of time, and to be forced to do things that way merely sapped any inspiration they ever had.

A very ethnonarcissistic way of saying the only creativity American video game developers were capable of that anybody cared about was mostly incidental to a single-minded pursuit of creating technical toys and gadgets.

It is possible to explore and push forward with existing technology, but of course that requires you to see things other than technology. So the kind of American who gets into making video games is no good here. Emphasis on American, as opposed to even British (see above).

Consoles destroyed western gaming because the platform is too closed an enviorment. Even if it's possible to get around it's limitations just from a psychological point of view the advent of multiplatform development probably demoralized western devopers in the first place.

I basically agree with this narrative, just minus the lament, moral tinge, and narcissism in favour of the fallen side. This did happen. And it probably would be good to have these PC guys forming teams and such and still trying to make things their way even if their works often bore me. But you can't act like this mindset doesn't have problems. You know who didn't fall to consoles? Valve. Valve fell to Valve. They live the StemInsect dream. They just create novel systems and incremental tech-creeps indefinitely without the pressure of being forced to work things into a finished product people will want to buy anymore. Steam is basically a natural monopoly and they're using it to sit around programming cockroach AI, all the while their company is slowly being infiltrated and eaten alive by parasite types. I imagine Valve will be run by a clan of pajeets or something soon.

Why is that shit game even a point of contention?

Because Bungie are a both a historical and cultural anomaly and a brilliant example of many concepts relevant to the discussion.