Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[kmonster]

Without cheesing by level squatting or having a character die temporarily I'd pick 4 deep gnomes, 1 aasimar and 1 half-orc so there are 13 ECL levels so one caster can advance to get high level spells as fast as possible.

As deities I'd pick

Mask for invisibility spells and mirror image
Ilmater for Emotion:Hope,
Talos for Static Charge,
Bane for the extra encounter
Oghma for identifying
The other 4 deities only yield low benefits compared to this, so it doesn't matter much which is 6th, I'd pick Tempus for more power in the beginning although the two free feats become less useful later in the game.

 

[laclongquan]

Six clerics wouldn't be that much harder than a normal balanced party anyway. Clerics are a pretty solid class in IWD 2.

Care to put yer money where yer mouth is.....?

I'm actually tempted. It's always a mistake to read a thread about Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale, because I crave another playthrough even though I have dozens of unplayed games in my backlog.

The biggest limit of such party (6cleric both pure and variant) is the skill investment. You are going to need a talker because there's a few dialog checks in this game that make a dialog specialist a reasonable investment.

Dialog specialist: Charisma and 3dialog investment. A pure throwaway build. At least 10 INT or more and all invested into three skills. Might mix in other class to make it slightly more effective. Seriously, cleric mix is not good for a talker, unless you go for weird combo like Cleric1BardX, and that still mean throw away 1 level of Cleric. Or you can do the craziest thing and spread to 3 talkers. Invest into one dialog skill each. That way you have three bad builds instead of one horrible build. You decide.

Two melee: Cleric Fighter4 for twohander and shield user. This is easy build and very effective. Spellcraft investment for elemental feats.

A pure caster. Classic build. maybe 2.

You need a Rogue for disarm and search. Combo of Rogue and Cleric is horrible, even with Demarch of Mask, because invi sphere at tier 3 is no help. Another throwaway build.

Don't listen to him. The challenge is 6 pure Clerics.

Then you are in for a boring play. 6 pure cleric will make a skill-starving experience. Not impossible or particularly hard, just boring.

Why? 6 tier1 summons right off the bat will swarm over the goblin horde. Repeat it about 3 time, which should be your max spell slot at level 1 and one map is finished. BORRRRRRRING.

You dont even use buffs because level 1 or 2 caster summon very short duration creatures so Bless is a waste.

 

[Cael]

Six clerics wouldn't be that much harder than a normal balanced party anyway. Clerics are a pretty solid class in IWD 2.

Care to put yer money where yer mouth is.....?

I'm actually tempted. It's always a mistake to read a thread about Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale, because I crave another playthrough even though I have dozens of unplayed games in my backlog.

The biggest limit of such party (6cleric both pure and variant) is the skill investment. You are going to need a talker because there's a few dialog checks in this game that make a dialog specialist a reasonable investment.

Dialog specialist: Charisma and 3dialog investment. A pure throwaway build. At least 10 INT or more and all invested into three skills. Might mix in other class to make it slightly more effective. Seriously, cleric mix is not good for a talker, unless you go for weird combo like Cleric1BardX, and that still mean throw away 1 level of Cleric. Or you can do the craziest thing and spread to 3 talkers. Invest into one dialog skill each. That way you have three bad builds instead of one horrible build. You decide.

Two melee: Cleric Fighter4 for twohander and shield user. This is easy build and very effective. Spellcraft investment for elemental feats.

A pure caster. Classic build. maybe 2.

You need a Rogue for disarm and search. Combo of Rogue and Cleric is horrible, even with Demarch of Mask, because invi sphere at tier 3 is no help. Another throwaway build.

Don't listen to him. The challenge is 6 pure Clerics.

Then you are in for a boring play. 6 pure cleric will make a skill-starving experience. Not impossible or particularly hard, just boring.

Why? 6 tier1 summons right off the bat will swarm over the goblin horde. Repeat it about 3 time, which should be your max spell slot at level 1 and one map is finished. BORRRRRRRING.

You dont even use buffs because level 1 or 2 caster summon very short duration creatures so Bless is a waste.

Completely irrelevant. That is what the challenge is. You don't get to change the rules because you are bored.

 

[Cael]

Without cheesing by level squatting or having a character die temporarily I'd pick 4 deep gnomes, 1 aasimar and 1 half-orc so there are 13 ECL levels so one caster can advance to get high level spells as fast as possible.

As deities I'd pick

Mask for invisibility spells and mirror image
Ilmater for Emotion:Hope,
Talos for Static Charge,
Bane for the extra encounter
Oghma for identifying
The other 4 deities only yield low benefits compared to this, so it doesn't matter much which is 6th, I'd pick Tempus for more power in the beginning although the two free feats become less useful later in the game.

No. You want a total LA of X-1 where X is a multiple of the total number of PCs (6 in this case). The good LA break points are 5, 11, 17. This is because XP is calculated based on the average level of the party, but only the integer. The numbers after the decimal gets thrown away.

 

[kmonster]

No. You want a total LA of X-1 where X is a multiple of the total number of PCs (6 in this case). The good LA break points are 5, 11, 17. This is because XP is calculated based on the average level of the party, but only the integer. The numbers after the decimal gets thrown away.

You've read the rules but you don't understand them. The beneficial LA is X+1. In a party of six the good LA break points therefore are 1,7,13. An easy example: 5 humans and 1 aasimar (LA 1) get the same XP as 1 human and 5 aasimar (LA5) although the first party has 4 levels more.

 

[Average Manatee]

I find it amusing that people are seriously considering a 6 cleric party a challenge. This is D&D 3rd ed, clerics are one of the strongest and most well-rounded classes. They only thing you'd need to do to make a fully powergamed party would be to add some arcane magic.

No. You want a total LA of X-1 where X is a multiple of the total number of PCs (6 in this case). The good LA break points are 5, 11, 17. This is because XP is calculated based on the average level of the party, but only the integer. The numbers after the decimal gets thrown away.

You've read the rules but you don't understand them. The beneficial LA is X+1. In a party of six the good LA break points therefore are 1,7,13. An easy example: 5 humans and 1 aasimar (LA 1) get the same XP as 1 human and 5 aasimar (LA5) although the first party has 4 levels more.

I don't understand how you guys are coming to this conclusion. LA doesn't change anything about how much XP you get, it only changes how much XP you require to level. If you start with 6 deep gnomes you get the same XP as you would starting with 6 humans. There are no "breakpoints", a 11/11/10/10 party might get the same experience as a 11/11/10/9 party depending on rounding, but as soon as it changes to a 11/11/11/11 party vs. 11/11/11/10 it might get less. Your conclusions only work with the assumption that all parties gain levels at the same time and that ECL +3 means that a character is always exactly 3 levels less than a human, but this is not the case in IWD2.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I find it amusing that people are seriously considering a 6 cleric party a challenge. This is D&D 3rd ed, clerics are one of the strongest and most well-rounded classes.

Care to put yer money where yer mouth is?

 

[Lilura]

Then you are in for a boring play. 6 pure cleric will make a skill-starving experience.

It's not so much the skill-starved factor (though that is true) but rather just the "we're all basically the same" factor.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Would you believe I co-oped this game with my stepdad on tablet no less? We each had a tablet and played the whole game through, minus some of the expansions as I got distracted by other games. And it actually worked. Fun experience, too.

 

[aweigh]

Lilura what kind of munchkin-ized party would you roll for a max difficulty + HoF run of IWD2?

 

[Lilura]

Lilura what kind of munchkin-ized party would you roll for a max difficulty + HoF run of IWD2?

A good starting point would be this GameFAQs guide. Definitely the best power-gaming write-up for HoF-proof parties.

 

[Jigby]

Lilura what kind of munchkin-ized party would you roll for a max difficulty + HoF run of IWD2?

If you want challenge, I'd consider installing Tactics, it's more fun than Insane+HOF (although, I've never tried HOF+Tactics, that might be interesting).

 

[the_shadow]

I'm playing that 6 cleric party now, but on Insane difficulty.

 

[Cael]

I'm playing that 6 cleric party now, but on Insane difficulty.

That is because you are... insane!

 

[kmonster]

I find it amusing that people are seriously considering a 6 cleric party a challenge. This is D&D 3rd ed, clerics are one of the strongest and most well-rounded classes. They only thing you'd need to do to make a fully powergamed party would be to add some arcane magic.

No. You want a total LA of X-1 where X is a multiple of the total number of PCs (6 in this case). The good LA break points are 5, 11, 17. This is because XP is calculated based on the average level of the party, but only the integer. The numbers after the decimal gets thrown away.

You've read the rules but you don't understand them. The beneficial LA is X+1. In a party of six the good LA break points therefore are 1,7,13. An easy example: 5 humans and 1 aasimar (LA 1) get the same XP as 1 human and 5 aasimar (LA5) although the first party has 4 levels more.

I don't understand how you guys are coming to this conclusion. LA doesn't change anything about how much XP you get, it only changes how much XP you require to level. If you start with 6 deep gnomes you get the same XP as you would starting with 6 humans. There are no "breakpoints", a 11/11/10/10 party might get the same experience as a 11/11/10/9 party depending on rounding, but as soon as it changes to a 11/11/11/11 party vs. 11/11/11/10 it might get less. Your conclusions only work with the assumption that all parties gain levels at the same time and that ECL +3 means that a character is always exactly 3 levels less than a human, but this is not the case in IWD2.

It's about what's most powerful over the game as a whole so your attempt to refute it by requiring most power for every moment has failed. An optimal party for the game doesn't have to be optimal for every second it. ECL races start with up to 5,000 XP but the more you level up the longer the time span where it doesn't matter gets. Unlike you claimed LA does change the average party level and therefore how much XP you get, reducing it to only how much XP required to level is a false simplification.

 

[Average Manatee]

It's about what's most powerful over the game as a whole so your attempt to refute it by requiring most power for every moment has failed. An optimal party for the game doesn't have to be optimal for every second it. ECL races start with up to 5,000 XP but the more you level up the longer the time span where it doesn't matter gets. Unlike you claimed LA does change the average party level and therefore how much XP you get, reducing it to only how much XP required to level is a false simplification.

LA in IWD2 only changes party level by changing the required XP to level. That's it.

You are quibbling over breakpoints due to rounding but the breakpoint shifts constantly as the party levels.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I'm playing that 6 cleric party now, but on Insane difficulty.

I could have rated you incline, because at last someone's actually doing it instead of just theorising, but I went with rolls eyes because you only seemed to want to communicate the fact that you're doing something on insane. You don't mention what party you went with, what their stats are, how far you've got or anything that would make for interesting reading beyond noting that you like to post in forums about how hardcore you are. Which is no problem & wont diminish your victory if you get past the Orc Fortress, but it tends one to suspect that, due to ego, if you fail then we'll never hear about it & we'll get a story about your dog dying & needing treatment in Fiji for 4 weeks or something or you'll just doctor a final screenshot. ie: your post doesn't suggest you're necessarily in the spirit of the thing.

However, I'm genuinely interested in seeing how you progress as it is still a good enough challenge on core rules. My fear is that we wont hear too much about it beyond how easy Targos was...

 

[Crichton]

Long ago (~12 years ago) I played through IWD2 with an all priest party (5 clerics and 1 druid). It wasn't very optimized but it still pretty much ROFLstomped through the whole game. Build stuff I can remember:

All shield dwarves
1 Tempus (axe)
1 Druid (scimitar / spear) (but I think she spent most of the game using that moonblade)
1 Morninglord (mace)
1 Painbearer (long sword)
1 Dreadmaster (Flail)
1 Lorekeeper (bastard sword)

Gameplay points I can remember:
- Early on, Sunscorch from the druid and Lathandarite was very important for blinding pesky spellcasters (and those drumming guys at the Horde fortress)
- Later, Animate Dead was very helpful; almost essential for the Raven monastery challenges
- It took a while to get good heavy armor for all the clerics, I think the final pieces came from those underdark merchants
- Holy Word was great, but it fried the Banite as well as the enemies, making him a suboptimal choice (Holy Smite as well, though it wasn't as important)
- Circle of Bones (and later circle of blades) were very helpful for chipping into enemies that 3/4 BAB folks had trouble hitting
- I was a cheap bastard, so I used the Lorekeeper's two Identify spells per day for almost everything
- I don't remember much about skills, I think I had diplomacy on the Morninglord and wilderness lore on the druid, probably just concentration for everyone else.

A much better "all full-spellcasting" party that I played with a couple years ago:
Paladin 1 / Painbearer of Ilmater X
Rogue 1 / Wizard X
Sorcerer
Battleguard of Tempus
Morninglord of Lathandar
Druid

These were all Dark Elves and they did end the game a level or two behind where a non-ECL party would; so lower CR doesn't quite make up for the ECL penalty (maybe because quest XP isn't level-scaled?). The addition of the Paladin level was mostly for the Holy Avenger, but the paladin dialog was cool too. Arcane spellcasters were less flexible than their divine counterparts, but it opened up a few cool combos like Animate Dead + Cloudkill. In the final calculus, I don't know that the rogue level was worth it; not many traps and bashing or Knock takes care of locks...

If one were determined to do an all-cleric (no other classes) playthrough, I would probably recommend:

Painbearer
Battleguard
Lorekeeper
3 x Morninglord

Lots of blasting, all good to take advantage of Holy Smite/Word, Lorekeeper identifies all the phat lewt.

 

[Average Manatee]

I find it amusing that people are seriously considering a 6 cleric party a challenge. This is D&D 3rd ed, clerics are one of the strongest and most well-rounded classes.

Care to put yer money where yer mouth is?

Well, used to be IWD2 wasn't really runnable for me due to driver issues, but I booted it up and apparently it works fine now. I guess whatever driver issue it was AMD had is fixed now, so I'll go.

What other limitations do we have other than 6 clerics? Is 1 Druid allowed? All pure class, no 1 level of monk or anything else? No min-maxing? I totally forgot how abusable the IWD2 point buy system was. Even as a kid I'd never really powergame to the point of letting a character have 1 in a stat but if this is supposed to be a "challenge" game I'd do that if allowed. If you let me run a whole party of Monk 1/Cleric x Deep Gnomes with a 16/20/14/3/20/1 stat spread, starting with 24 AC naked, I doubt the difficulty will be described as anything but a joke.

BTW, is it IWD2 that allows monks to still use shields and retain their wisdom bonus, or am I misremembering? If so that's going to make it a cinch, AC 30 will be pretty easy to each and AC 40 by the mid/late game.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I find it amusing that people are seriously considering a 6 cleric party a challenge. This is D&D 3rd ed, clerics are one of the strongest and most well-rounded classes.

Care to put yer money where yer mouth is?

Well, used to be IWD2 wasn't really runnable for me due to driver issues, but I booted it up and apparently it works fine now. I guess whatever driver issue it was AMD had is fixed now, so I'll go.

What other limitations do we have other than 6 clerics? Is 1 Druid allowed? All pure class, no 1 level of monk or anything else? No min-maxing? I totally forgot how abusable the IWD2 point buy system was. Even as a kid I'd never really powergame to the point of letting a character have 1 in a stat but if this is supposed to be a "challenge" game I'd do that if allowed. If you let me run a whole party of Monk 1/Cleric x Deep Gnomes with a 16/20/14/3/20/1 stat spread, starting with 24 AC naked, I doubt the difficulty will be described as anything but a joke.

BTW, is it IWD2 that allows monks to still use shields and retain their wisdom bonus, or am I misremembering? If so that's going to make it a cinch, AC 30 will be pretty easy to each and AC 40 by the mid/late game.

Nope, no Druids.
Yes, all pure clerics, no, no classes of this that or the other.
You can do whatever you like with your stats.
The winner is the person to leave the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Long ago (~12 years ago) I played through IWD2 with an all priest party (5 clerics and 1 druid). It wasn't very optimized but it still pretty much ROFLstomped through the whole game. Build stuff I can remember:

All shield dwarves
1 Tempus (axe)
1 Druid (scimitar / spear) (but I think she spent most of the game using that moonblade)
1 Morninglord (mace)
1 Painbearer (long sword)
1 Dreadmaster (Flail)
1 Lorekeeper (bastard sword)

Gameplay points I can remember:
- Early on, Sunscorch from the druid and Lathandarite was very important for blinding pesky spellcasters (and those drumming guys at the Horde fortress)
- Later, Animate Dead was very helpful; almost essential for the Raven monastery challenges
- It took a while to get good heavy armor for all the clerics, I think the final pieces came from those underdark merchants
- Holy Word was great, but it fried the Banite as well as the enemies, making him a suboptimal choice (Holy Smite as well, though it wasn't as important)
- Circle of Bones (and later circle of blades) were very helpful for chipping into enemies that 3/4 BAB folks had trouble hitting
- I was a cheap bastard, so I used the Lorekeeper's two Identify spells per day for almost everything
- I don't remember much about skills, I think I had diplomacy on the Morninglord and wilderness lore on the druid, probably just concentration for everyone else.

A much better "all full-spellcasting" party that I played with a couple years ago:
Paladin 1 / Painbearer of Ilmater X
Rogue 1 / Wizard X
Sorcerer
Battleguard of Tempus
Morninglord of Lathandar
Druid

These were all Dark Elves and they did end the game a level or two behind where a non-ECL party would; so lower CR doesn't quite make up for the ECL penalty (maybe because quest XP isn't level-scaled?). The addition of the Paladin level was mostly for the Holy Avenger, but the paladin dialog was cool too. Arcane spellcasters were less flexible than their divine counterparts, but it opened up a few cool combos like Animate Dead + Cloudkill. In the final calculus, I don't know that the rogue level was worth it; not many traps and bashing or Knock takes care of locks...

If one were determined to do an all-cleric (no other classes) playthrough, I would probably recommend:

Painbearer
Battleguard
Lorekeeper
3 x Morninglord

Lots of blasting, all good to take advantage of Holy Smite/Word, Lorekeeper identifies all the phat lewt.

Yes, it's interesting how the very first gameplay point you remember is the Druid. & is the only part about the early game that was notable while the clerics are all 'later'.

If I want to steamroll IWD2 then I always take 2 Clerics precisely because, late game, they can carve things up like a professional receiver. However, when I tried to take all six, I found it quite difficult to get to the later As you say, it can be quite difficult to get good heavy armour for all the clerics & other such early inconveniences. But perhaps I just wasn't determined enough? Perhaps I missed a trick or two at character creation? Perhaps I didn't utilise them properly?

If anyone here can do it & do it well, the winner is the person to finish the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

 

[Cael]

Long ago (~12 years ago) I played through IWD2 with an all priest party (5 clerics and 1 druid). It wasn't very optimized but it still pretty much ROFLstomped through the whole game. Build stuff I can remember:

All shield dwarves
1 Tempus (axe)
1 Druid (scimitar / spear) (but I think she spent most of the game using that moonblade)
1 Morninglord (mace)
1 Painbearer (long sword)
1 Dreadmaster (Flail)
1 Lorekeeper (bastard sword)

Gameplay points I can remember:
- Early on, Sunscorch from the druid and Lathandarite was very important for blinding pesky spellcasters (and those drumming guys at the Horde fortress)
- Later, Animate Dead was very helpful; almost essential for the Raven monastery challenges
- It took a while to get good heavy armor for all the clerics, I think the final pieces came from those underdark merchants
- Holy Word was great, but it fried the Banite as well as the enemies, making him a suboptimal choice (Holy Smite as well, though it wasn't as important)
- Circle of Bones (and later circle of blades) were very helpful for chipping into enemies that 3/4 BAB folks had trouble hitting
- I was a cheap bastard, so I used the Lorekeeper's two Identify spells per day for almost everything
- I don't remember much about skills, I think I had diplomacy on the Morninglord and wilderness lore on the druid, probably just concentration for everyone else.

A much better "all full-spellcasting" party that I played with a couple years ago:
Paladin 1 / Painbearer of Ilmater X
Rogue 1 / Wizard X
Sorcerer
Battleguard of Tempus
Morninglord of Lathandar
Druid

These were all Dark Elves and they did end the game a level or two behind where a non-ECL party would; so lower CR doesn't quite make up for the ECL penalty (maybe because quest XP isn't level-scaled?). The addition of the Paladin level was mostly for the Holy Avenger, but the paladin dialog was cool too. Arcane spellcasters were less flexible than their divine counterparts, but it opened up a few cool combos like Animate Dead + Cloudkill. In the final calculus, I don't know that the rogue level was worth it; not many traps and bashing or Knock takes care of locks...

If one were determined to do an all-cleric (no other classes) playthrough, I would probably recommend:

Painbearer
Battleguard
Lorekeeper
3 x Morninglord

Lots of blasting, all good to take advantage of Holy Smite/Word, Lorekeeper identifies all the phat lewt.

Yes, it's interesting how the very first gameplay point you remember is the Druid. & is the only part about the early game that was notable while the clerics are all 'later'.

If I want to steamroll IWD2 then I always take 2 Clerics precisely because, late game, they can carve things up like a professional receiver. However, when I tried to take all six, I found it quite difficult to get to the later As you say, it can be quite difficult to get good heavy armour for all the clerics & other such early inconveniences. But perhaps I just wasn't determined enough? Perhaps I missed a trick or two at character creation? Perhaps I didn't utilise them properly?

If anyone here can do it & do it well, the winner is the person to finish the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

Shush, boy! I'll get around to it... eventually.

+LA classes lets you keep accruing XP after all the non-LA classes stop getting XP because of level difference between your party and the enemy. That gives you an advantage later in the game becuase you basically get the LA for free as you will eventually stop accruing XP even with LA.

 

[kmonster]

If anyone here can do it & do it well, the winner is the person to finish the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

Not a good measurement of skill in a game where it's possible to grind for loot.

 

[Average Manatee]

Nope, no Druids.
Yes, all pure clerics, no, no classes of this that or the other.
You can do whatever you like with your stats.
The winner is the person to leave the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

Are we allowed to fully abuse summoning? I mean 6 clerics spamming animate undead is going to be kind of silly. 1 cleric spamming animate undead is already kind of silly.

I guess I'll plan for:

1x Ilmatar (for Emotion: Hope)
1x Oghma (Identify, Malison, Power Word: Silence, eventually wail of the banshee and executioner's eyes)
xx Bane (+1 DC will save spells, becomes +2 w/ the wisdom upgrade, stacked with Malison and we should be really abusing everything with a will save, also gets Power Word: Silence)

Basically Bane just rolls over everything with low will save and everything with high will save is probably a caster neutered by Power Word: Silence. What exactly are the perks of the other gods? Don't really see anything great that these three don't have, looking at the spell lists.

Tentatively planning to make most of the group 20/18/16/1/18/1 Half Orcs in order to be a melee machine. I don't recall any significant (i.e. invaluable items) locked behind stat checks in IWD2? Does the dialog option for Bane clerics require bluff or something or just a Bane-servant in the party? I can make one or two of the Banes into human skill monkeys I guess. Not interested in +LA races much, while IncendiaryDevice is completely retarded for calling an all-cleric party a challenge he's correct in that the only possible difficulty is in the very early game. A bunch of Aasimar for +1 spell DC or Drow for SR is pretty weak until the mid-late game where you don't really need those bonuses anyway. Fairly certain a group of 20 strength half orcs (24ish as soon as you get bull's strength) can just chew the early game to pieces.

It would be kind of funny to have an all-good party just spamming Holy Word all day long to stun lock enemy groups forever. I'm not sure what if anything has immunity to that and it sounds really abusive.

 

[Jigby]

Basically Bane just rolls over everything with low will save and everything with high will save is probably a caster neutered by Power Word: Silence. What exactly are the perks of the other gods? Don't really see anything great that these three don't have, looking at the spell lists.

My favorite would be Mask, Mirror Image is broken in the game, even though you get just 1 it still helps against things like Horrid Wiltings. Improved Invis and Invisibility Sphere are also very useful spells and late game Executioner's Eyes / BBD obviously. Also Talos is interesting because of Tremor - there are very few enemies in the game that are immune to knockdown, plenty of stun immunities, but not knockdown.

This is late game talk though, by the time you get to the orc fortress you'll be lvl ~5 without LA, with LA probably less.