Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[octavius]

Drow?!?

Yeah. For the 2 LA. I was considering Svirfneblin, but midgets...

WTF is "2 LA"? And WTF are Drow and Svirfneblin doing as player characters in IWD?

 

[Tigranes]

Yeah, what the fuck is this

 

[Modron]

We need a tag for the degenerates playing beamdog enhanced editions.

 

[Cael]

Drow?!?

Yeah. For the 2 LA. I was considering Svirfneblin, but midgets...

WTF is "2 LA"? And WTF are Drow and Svirfneblin doing as player characters in IWD?

2 LA means your character is considered 2 levels higher than they are. So a level 1 character is effectively level 3. He will gain xp as a L3 character, needs L3 xp to level, has the items of a L3 character but has all the abilities and hp of a L1 character. It is an artifact of DnD 3.x.

The problem is that IWD2 has a flaw in its xp calculation, probably because the idiots doing it didn't know how 3.x works. Instead of gaining xp like a L3 character, they made it so that you gain xp like a L1 character (i.e., without LA). Everything else is correct.

In 3,x, you also get xp based on your level (including LA) compared to your opponent's level. After a certain point, you so outlevel your opponent, you don't gain xp at all. But because of that flaw in xp calculation, you still gained xp as a LA character because the game doesn't take your LA into account when calculating the xp you get. This is actually made WORSE in IWD2 because it uses AVERAGE party level, which allowed all sorts of shenannigans like a single L16 character and 5 L1 characters to bring the average down.

But yeah, LA is good in that game, contrary to what actual 3.x tries to do.


EDIT: Also, sorry, I was referring to IWD2, not IWD1.

 

[Tigranes]

OK, yeah, obviously drow were super strong in IWD2.

Anyway, I really don't think that Witcher party missing a cleric is a huge deal. Hell, not using ranged weapon fire with your hasted characters to initiate combat probably does more to get your efficiency down in early-mid IWD than anything else. But with a relatively 'muscly' party with up to 4 melee combatants, it really is imperative to orient the gear and buffs towards them surviving.

 

[Sigourn]

For a series of videogames inspired by a tabletop game, it is downright retarded you can't trigger traps using arrows. I can already tell this could have been a muuuuch more enjoyable experience with the issues ironed out (pathfinding, retarded AI, smaller but more exciting dungeons and less filler combat).

 

[Tigranes]

Um, OK dude

We are all totally OK with you ragequitting

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

For a series of videogames inspired by a tabletop game, it is downright retarded you can't trigger traps using arrows. I can already tell this could have been a muuuuch more enjoyable experience with the issues ironed out (pathfinding, retarded AI, smaller but more exciting dungeons and less filler combat).

Um, OK dude

We are all totally OK with you ragequitting

Have I missed a post somewhere? Has a post been deleted?

Arrows to disarm traps? I don't think I've ever played a cRPG where arrows are used to disarm traps? Wait a mo, I'll google. "using arrows to disarm traps in rpgs", nope nothing. "using arrows to disarm traps in rpgs", nope nothing. But apparently IWD is getting a beating for not allowing arrows to disarm traps? Who, what, where, when, how, why?

Dude, you've recently played Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate 1 and Tales of the Sword Coast, you know how traps work in these games, you've even commented on different ways to clear traps within the rules before. Why are you suddenly beating up on this game for something so abstract? Especially when you're in full knowledge of how to deal with them.

Besides, IWD doesn't even have that many traps. The last time you posted you were beginning Dragon's Eye, and the only really problematic traps are at the end of that stage. So... are you having your Yxunomei moment?

 

[Cael]

For a series of videogames inspired by a tabletop game, it is downright retarded you can't trigger traps using arrows. I can already tell this could have been a muuuuch more enjoyable experience with the issues ironed out (pathfinding, retarded AI, smaller but more exciting dungeons and less filler combat).

Um, OK dude

We are all totally OK with you ragequitting

Have I missed a post somewhere? Has a post been deleted?

Arrows to disarm traps? I don't think I've ever played a cRPG where arrows are used to disarm traps? Wait a mo, I'll google. "using arrows to disarm traps in rpgs", nope nothing. "using arrows to disarm traps in rpgs", nope nothing. But apparently IWD is getting a beating for not allowing arrows to disarm traps? Who, what, where, when, how, why?

Dude, you've recently played Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate 1 and Tales of the Sword Coast, you know how traps work in these games, you've even commented on different ways to clear traps within the rules before. Why are you suddenly beating up on this game for something so abstract? Especially when you're in full knowledge of how to deal with them.

Besides, IWD doesn't even have that many traps. The last time you posted you were beginning Dragon's Eye, and the only really problematic traps are at the end of that stage. So... are you having your Yxunomei moment?

I think he is referring to the fact that his tabletop GM allowed that kind of retarded crap in his game and he is raging that you can't do it in a cRPG based on the tabletop game.

 

[laclongquan]

Drow?!?

Yeah. For the 2 LA. I was considering Svirfneblin, but midgets...

Deep Gnome make for a good scout, yo~ Fighter/Thief with point toward Bows/Crossbow, Stealth, Detecting, and you got yourself a nigh undetectable scout that will trigger most of the ambushes.

Mind you, the downside is no longbow :midget:. So a Dark Elf in that role has that upside, though losing in the undetectable part.

Also, fuck backstab~

 

[coldcrow]

Or an invincible DG monk with AC 50+

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

For a series of videogames inspired by a tabletop game, it is downright retarded you can't trigger traps using arrows. I can already tell this could have been a muuuuch more enjoyable experience with the issues ironed out (pathfinding, retarded AI, smaller but more exciting dungeons and less filler combat).

Um, OK dude

We are all totally OK with you ragequitting

Have I missed a post somewhere? Has a post been deleted?

Arrows to disarm traps? I don't think I've ever played a cRPG where arrows are used to disarm traps? Wait a mo, I'll google. "using arrows to disarm traps in rpgs", nope nothing. "using arrows to disarm traps in rpgs", nope nothing. But apparently IWD is getting a beating for not allowing arrows to disarm traps? Who, what, where, when, how, why?

Dude, you've recently played Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate 1 and Tales of the Sword Coast, you know how traps work in these games, you've even commented on different ways to clear traps within the rules before. Why are you suddenly beating up on this game for something so abstract? Especially when you're in full knowledge of how to deal with them.

Besides, IWD doesn't even have that many traps. The last time you posted you were beginning Dragon's Eye, and the only really problematic traps are at the end of that stage. So... are you having your Yxunomei moment?

I think he is referring to the fact that his tabletop GM allowed that kind of retarded crap in his game and he is raging that you can't do it in a cRPG based on the tabletop game.

Not really. He's played lots of games before this one with the same rules, games with a lot more traps. IWD has obviously specifically triggered him in this regard. Why are you presuming to speak for him anyway? Can you not go 2 seconds without frothing about something at someone?

 

[Tigranes]

For a series of videogames inspired by a tabletop game, it is downright retarded you can't trigger traps using arrows. I can already tell this could have been a muuuuch more enjoyable experience with the issues ironed out (pathfinding, retarded AI, smaller but more exciting dungeons and less filler combat).

Um, OK dude

We are all totally OK with you ragequitting

Have I missed a post somewhere? Has a post been deleted?

He deleted the bit about ragequitting, yeah. Hilariously, he didn't think his reason for ragequitting needed to be redacted.

 

[Cael]

Can you not go 2 seconds without frothing about something at someone?

Actually, the only one frothing is you. It seems to be your default method of communication, something that I have noticed for over a month now. I just didn't want to bring it up. Projection is a very bad thing, kid.

 

[Sigourn]

Have I missed a post somewhere? Has a post been deleted?

Arrows to disarm traps? I don't think I've ever played a cRPG where arrows are used to disarm traps? Wait a mo, I'll google. "using arrows to disarm traps in rpgs", nope nothing. "using arrows to disarm traps in rpgs", nope nothing. But apparently IWD is getting a beating for not allowing arrows to disarm traps? Who, what, where, when, how, why?

Skyrim allowed you to trigger pressure plates with arrows. Same the 3D Fallout games with the trip wires (just throw something in their direction). Not cRPGs, but it's funny that the otherwise casual RPGs allow you to do something that makes a lot of sense.

I didn't complain about Baldur's Gate because I had a Thief in my party, so no reason to complain. But it's getting on my nerves, especially because you can't rest in the last level of Dragon's Eye, meaning you have to backtrack all the fucking way to level 4 in order to rest... avoiding the traps on the way, and then again on the way back. It's stupid. And traps don't go away in this section, for some reason: even if you trigger them, they don't "run out".

The only way I can headcanon my way around the traps in the IE is by saying all of them are magical and know the difference between "someone is trying to trigger me" and "an enemy triggered me without his knowing". Which also would explain why monsters don't trigger the traps.

He deleted the bit about ragequitting, yeah. Hilariously, he didn't think his reason for ragequitting needed to be redacted.

I deleted my bit about "ragequitting" because I never ragequitted the game, and there was alreayd one retard (you) who acted like I did, so I wanted to avoid unnecessary fake news comments.

 

[octavius]

I'd never play IWD without a Fighter/Thief; they are just too useful. Before my mage starts Fireballing Ice Wights my F/T usually have half the kills of the party.

 

[Sigourn]

I'd never play IWD without a Fighter/Thief; they are just too useful. Before my mage starts Fireballing Ice Wights my F/T usually have half the kills of the party.

I ended up deleting Siegfried and Shani. I rebuilt them as Yennefer the Thief (kind of annoying as I haven't played TW2 or TW3...) and Shani the Cleric. Mostly because I think that's the only real "healer" class, and I never take advantage of Druids (or any spellcasting class, for that matter). The game is clearly tailored towards having a Thief in the party, and I don't want my Icewind Dale experience to be complete shit just because I decided to make-do without one (Durlag's Tower was cool because I took my time spotting the traps instead of blindly triggering them).

 

[octavius]

Not a single class Thief, I hope?

 

[ghostdog]

Yeah, fighter/thief and fighter/cleric multiclassed or dual are much better.

 

[Sigourn]

Not a single class Thief, I hope?

Well, she is a level 1 human. I did give her 18 in all STR, DEX and CON.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

But it's getting on my nerves, especially because you can't rest in the last level of Dragon's Eye, meaning you have to backtrack all the fucking way to level 4 in order to rest... avoiding the traps on the way, and then again on the way back. It's stupid.

That's the only level in the game which is like that.

What you can do, if you want to keep the same party, is export one of your characters, make a thief character, import him to remove the traps on that level, then export him and re-import your old character. The only trap/s which might be difficult for him would be the 'repeater' one/s directly outside Yxunomei's lair.

Other characters have have trap detection, such as Clerics, which enable you to walk round most of them, but the thief is the only one who can remove them.

It seems rather a funny thing to rage about in IWD, because IWD is one of the few games which allows you to fully construct six party members from the start, without ever having to rely on encounters to build a party. Since thieves are the only class able to remove traps (and you already know this from playing other similarly ruled games) it seems strange that someone would not even consider some form of Thief for their first run of the game. As I've already said, IWD doesn't even go heavy on the traps and most replayers who are then going for an experienced min-max party look for ways to not bother having a Thief in the party because of this. But first run of the game? You have six slots for heaven's sake and it's a game that's renown for being more of a pure dungeon crawl than an over-world talky game, why on earth would you not even think about having something akin to a 'generic party' on your first run - and then blame the game when things become a bit awkward at the very end of one specific chapter at the bottom of a major dungeon crawl.

There's no harm in asking for advice on ways to deal with the Yxunomei stage of the game, it's commonly recognised as the relatively hardest moment in the game, but if you want to rage at that point, go right ahead, it's perfectly normal, it's the most enraging part of the game as well, for most new players. But please don't blame the game for having its own rules, games like Skyrim and Fallout 3 aren't party-based games, so they tend to give one character all of the options, you know, to prevent people raging that they can't do something, in the IE games you're playing proper ROLE playing games, and it's pretty much the whole point of the game to have characters that all perform different ROLES. If all the characters had the means to perform all XYZ functions then you might as well make them solo action games. It's the reason only Clerics have access to the full Cleric roster of spells, such as the most important healing and buff spells, why only fighter classes get multiple bonuses to weapon specialisation and general armour/shield/weapon access, and why only Bards can sing, etc etc etc.

I mean, you wouldn't go without a healer class and then bitch about the fact that everyone should be able to heal.... would you...

 

[Sigourn]

That's the only level in the game which is like that.

What you can do, if you want to keep the same party, is export one of your characters, make a thief character, import him to remove the traps on that level, then export him and re-import your old character. The only trap/s which might be difficult for him would be the 'repeater' one/s directly outside Yxunomei's lair.

Other characters have have trap detection, such as Clerics, which enable you to walk round most of them, but the thief is the only one who can remove them.

It seems rather a funny thing to rage about in IWD, because IWD is one of the few games which allows you to fully construct six party members from the start, without ever having to rely on encounters to build a party. Since thieves are the only class able to remove traps (and you already know this from playing other similarly ruled games) it seems strange that someone would not even consider some form of Thief for their first run of the game. As I've already said, IWD doesn't even go heavy on the traps and most replayers who are then going for an experienced min-max party look for ways to not bother having a Thief in the party because of this. But first run of the game? You have six slots for heaven's sake and it's a game that's renown for being more of a pure dungeon crawl than an over-world talky game, why on earth would you not even think about having something akin to a 'generic party' on your first run - and then blame the game when things become a bit awkward at the very end of one specific chapter at the bottom of a major dungeon crawl.

There's no harm in asking for advice on ways to deal with the Yxunomei stage of the game, it's commonly recognised as the relatively hardest moment in the game, but if you want to rage at that point, go right ahead, it's perfectly normal, it's the most enraging part of the game as well, for most new players. But please don't blame the game for having its own rules, games like Skyrim and Fallout 3 aren't party-based games, so they tend to give one character all of the options, you know, to prevent people raging that they can't do something, in the IE games you're playing proper ROLE playing games, and it's pretty much the whole point of the game to have characters that all perform different ROLES. If all the characters had the means to perform all XYZ functions then you might as well make them solo action games. It's the reason only Clerics have access to the full Cleric roster of spells, such as the most important healing and buff spells, why only fighter classes get multiple bonuses to weapon specialisation and general armour/shield/weapon access, and why only Bards can sing, etc etc etc.

I mean, you wouldn't go without a healer class and then bitch about the fact that everyone should be able to heal.... would you...

My complaints are more along the lines of "okay, I have someone who can detect traps, but what use is that if after a while the traps return to "undetected" mode and I have to keep using that stupid spell?". It's one thing to not being able to disarm a trap, and a whole different thing to be unable to trigger them. I don't agree with your reasoning of "you want everyone to be able to do everything". You don't need to be of a special class in order to trigger a trap with something you have on you.

Restrictions are fine, but retarded restrictions are just retarded ("why can't certain classes drink certain potions?", "why can't certain classes use certain weapons and just add a penalty to them?", and more). Some I can live with, other, more annoying ones, I cannot.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

That's the only level in the game which is like that.

What you can do, if you want to keep the same party, is export one of your characters, make a thief character, import him to remove the traps on that level, then export him and re-import your old character. The only trap/s which might be difficult for him would be the 'repeater' one/s directly outside Yxunomei's lair.

Other characters have have trap detection, such as Clerics, which enable you to walk round most of them, but the thief is the only one who can remove them.

It seems rather a funny thing to rage about in IWD, because IWD is one of the few games which allows you to fully construct six party members from the start, without ever having to rely on encounters to build a party. Since thieves are the only class able to remove traps (and you already know this from playing other similarly ruled games) it seems strange that someone would not even consider some form of Thief for their first run of the game. As I've already said, IWD doesn't even go heavy on the traps and most replayers who are then going for an experienced min-max party look for ways to not bother having a Thief in the party because of this. But first run of the game? You have six slots for heaven's sake and it's a game that's renown for being more of a pure dungeon crawl than an over-world talky game, why on earth would you not even think about having something akin to a 'generic party' on your first run - and then blame the game when things become a bit awkward at the very end of one specific chapter at the bottom of a major dungeon crawl.

There's no harm in asking for advice on ways to deal with the Yxunomei stage of the game, it's commonly recognised as the relatively hardest moment in the game, but if you want to rage at that point, go right ahead, it's perfectly normal, it's the most enraging part of the game as well, for most new players. But please don't blame the game for having its own rules, games like Skyrim and Fallout 3 aren't party-based games, so they tend to give one character all of the options, you know, to prevent people raging that they can't do something, in the IE games you're playing proper ROLE playing games, and it's pretty much the whole point of the game to have characters that all perform different ROLES. If all the characters had the means to perform all XYZ functions then you might as well make them solo action games. It's the reason only Clerics have access to the full Cleric roster of spells, such as the most important healing and buff spells, why only fighter classes get multiple bonuses to weapon specialisation and general armour/shield/weapon access, and why only Bards can sing, etc etc etc.

I mean, you wouldn't go without a healer class and then bitch about the fact that everyone should be able to heal.... would you...

My complaints are more along the lines of "okay, I have someone who can detect traps, but what use is that if after a while the traps return to "undetected" mode and I have to keep using that stupid spell?". It's one thing to not being able to disarm a trap, and a whole different thing to be unable to trigger them. I don't agree with your reasoning of "you want everyone to be able to do everything". You don't need to be of a special class in order to trigger a trap with something you have on you.

Restrictions are fine, but retarded restrictions are just retarded ("why can't certain classes drink certain potions?", "why can't certain classes use certain weapons and just add a penalty to them?", and more). Some I can live with, other, more annoying ones, I cannot.

I answered this question in my post. Yes, you don't need artificial restrictions in order to create a ROLE playing game, but whatever restrictions you do make in order to create a ROLE playing game, some people will bitch about.

You clearly enjoy single character third person/first person aRPGs but find everything & it's mother to moan about when playing a traditional cRPG, so why do you continue to persevere with something you're pretty inept at/are incapable of getting? You are allowed to quit games you know.

You didn't even answer my question about why you didn't even think about having a Thief nor whether you would not take a Healer and then bitch about lack of healing abilities. You just repeated some pointless rant about "why can't the game do what I like instead of having its own rules". I know, I heard you the first time. Are we having a conversation or are you just looking for opportunities to repeat a message?

 

[octavius]

You do the mistake of thinking of your characters as persons, or characters in an interactive movie. Think of them instead as tools with different powers at your disposal in a semi-abstract game.

 

[Sigourn]

You clearly enjoy single character third person/first person aRPGs

What do you base this off?

but find everything & it's mother to moan about when playing a traditional cRPG

Could it be because they have major flaws? Of The Witcher, which I very much enjoyed (and is an action RPG as well) I complain about quite a few things as well. New Vegas is my favorite action RPG when modded, but I find it unplayable vanilla.

so why do you continue to persevere with something you're pretty inept at/are incapable of getting? You are allowed to quit games you know.

This sounds like childish "you don't like my game so STOP PLAYING IT!!".

You didn't even answer my question about why you didn't even think about having a Thief

I didn't want a Thief. The game clearly encourages you to play in a very specific way, which would be fine if it wasn't because it doesn't make much sense. Again, justify being unable to trigger traps without resorting to headcanon.

nor whether you would not take a Healer and then bitch about lack of healing abilities.

I never complained about this. Plus there's a world of difference between "my fighter cannot cast magic spells" and "a fucking arrow doesn't trigger traps". A fighter is a fighter because he has clearly specialized in fighting. It makes sense he is unable to cast spells or unwilling to. But a Ranger, specializing in bows and arrows, that cannot trigger a trap? Ridiculous. This complaint I retroactively apply to Baldur's Gate as well. I simply didn't come across this flaw because I had a Thief in my party who disarmed traps herself.

People like you are why the genre barely moved forward in over 20 years. Instead of rationalizing why these rules are shit, people have come to accept them because "D&D!!". Enforcing class archetypes for the sake of it is bad game design.