Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[Jvegi]

Chapter Five.

I just switched the difficulty from hard to insane. I should've done it in chapter two, perhaps I wouldn't feel so bored. The game became quite easy after the first chapter, as usual in those fucking d&d games. Now I feel like I have to be careful not to die in a few rounds.

The rouge/ranger is rather useless in fights. I bought her some wands so she can deal damage from the distance. She has the best hit scores in the party, but is way to fragile and backstabbing requires much micromanaging.

The monk is meh, at least he now has 3apr. A fighter in his place would do much better.

The cleric is very fun. He rarely melees, just buffing, ccing and aoe damage. I don't know why he feels so much stronger at this than in KotC and ToEE.

The fighter is a killing machine. Can someone explain why she only gets +2 to hit from abilities, even though she has 19 strength? Halberd, no weapon finesse of course. Everyone else gets proper bonuses.

 

[NJClaw]

The fighter is a killing machine. Can someone explain why she only gets +2 to hit from abilities, even though she has 19 strength? Halberd, no weapon finesse of course. Everyone else gets proper bonuses.

Could you post a screenshot of her entire character sheet (all the screens plus the inventory would be ideal).

 

[Jvegi]

Could you post a screenshot of her entire character sheet (all the screens plus the inventory would be ideal).

I started taking screenshots and it struck me. I'm retarded.

Power attack.

I'd expect it to show as a penalty, but it just lowers the bonus from the ability.

 

[Chippy]

So I'll just post this and consider the issue closed: https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/32026-stealth-in-iwd2-broken/

I mentioned stealth in IWD2 to the modders over at Gibberling3 and they patched it. They said that the values were upside down or something. So the more you put into move silently, the harder it was to remain in stealth.

I haven't tested the patch, as they're saying it may also be to do with lighting in the maps. So just keeping an eye on it.

So an FYI for all those that backed me up, and one for Lilura. For everyone else: I suppose ignorance is bliss, or maybe you just weren't masters of stealth.

Spoiler

That was -banter- for those of you who are genuine autists

Interesting, especially the part about the codes and analyzing it. In particular about Move Silently skill the lower the better, so it's better to leave this alone and just invest in Hide.

For IWD2 stealth, I mostly use stealth from safety, then scout around. If attack I use bow (Deep Gnome Rogue Fighter is a master of bow) and I never use backstab. The latter is a part of conscious choice from me since I dont like scout being far away activating aggro deep inside enemy's line.

Bear in mind they released a patch within that thread that corrects the issue.

I won't talk at length about this, because it triggers the autists. And then they start freaking out at me because I spotted it and they didn't. But imagine the enemy has a vision radius about the same as a fireball or so - as long as you arn't in that (even behind a building) you're ok.

I haven't tried the fix yet, but they were saying that enemy spot was still on the scale of BG2. So 255 or so. And IWD2 maxes out at 33 before DEX and equiptment bonuses?. I've only played it once, so was thinking of cheating in more MS with the editor or something.

But I find it hard to believe (as another poster sugested) that this was a bug. Why would the values be upside down?. Far more likely that Mr Killjoy and balancier extrodinaire: Josh Sawyer 'balanced' it. The guy was give a job to make a IE game quick and bring some money into the comapany, and his priorities were still on sawyerism. On the 9th iteration of the game. He also fucked about with stealth in IWD1 - you get a pause for a round or so before entering it.

I may be wrong on that account, but it's too much of a coincidence for me.

 

[Average Manatee]

rand = [rand 5-100, increments of 5]

if (![Enemy BLIND])
{
   enemyDiff = max( ([Enemy CREHIDEM.2DA->HIDEMOD] + [Enemy WISBONUS] + [Enemy CLASSLEVELSUM]) * 5, 0)

   if (enemyDiff + rand < HIDEINSHADOWS)
   {
       // Succeed (continue checking)
   }
   else
   {
       // Fail
   }
}

Difficulty is enemy's detect skill + wis bonus + level * 5 + a random number from 5 to 100 compared to your skill. So a level 10 enemy with no skill points and 10 wisdom still requires a minimum of 55 hide in shadows to beat and a maximum of 150 hide in shadows to be sure of beating it. And that's only for being seen, there's also the equivalent for being heard vs. move silently.

Definitely completely fucked. The "fix" in that thread just fixes lower move silently being better, effectively in vanilla you would always (except very early game with low enemy levels) pass the move silently check and fail the hide in shadows check and with that fix you just fail both.

 

[laclongquan]

The rouge/ranger is rather useless in fights. I bought her some wands so she can deal damage from the distance. She has the best hit scores in the party, but is way to fragile and backstabbing requires much micromanaging.

Because you play that build incorrectly tha's why. Also micromanaging backstab is a complete bitch, yeah.

Rogue Ranger is typically a dex build, using multiple LIGHT attack in melee. And everybody know backstabing require the first hit must be heavy to maximizing effect. Hit Then AWAY. Backstab once and run the heck away. The idea of stay longer than a round is a wrong concept for backstabber. You can do it wrongly but why? Ideally, a backstabber run away immediately after the 1st hit which kill the target, using the rest of that round. The extra time is helpful to get into a corner and re-Hide.

That tactic is powerful for a solo but for a party it's not that necessary. ESPECIALLY in IWD2, not just because stealth is broken, but also because if RNG fail your backstabber would be waaaaaay deep behind enemy line and run back is very dangerous.

So what's good for a rogue/ranger build? Most efficient use is Bow Scout, Legolas style. There is no waste in that build.

 

[Jigby]

Kinda wish they fixed rogue's sneak attack in the IWD2EE including the ability to sneak attack with ranged weapons.

 

[octavius]

Because you play that build incorrectly tha's why. Also micromanaging backstab is a complete bitch, yeah.

Rogue Ranger is typically a dex build, using multiple LIGHT attack in melee. And everybody know backstabing require the first hit must be heavy to maximizing effect. Hit Then AWAY. Backstab once and run the heck away. The idea of stay longer than a round is a wrong concept for backstabber. You can do it wrongly but why? Ideally, a backstabber run away immediately after the 1st hit which kill the target, using the rest of that round. The extra time is helpful to get into a corner and re-Hide.

My favoured tactic in IWD was to position my Fighter/Thief behind a spell caster or archer, move the rest of the party into combat and only do the blackjack (been playing to much Thief, I think) backstab once the target and it's colleagues are already aggroed.
A good opening move to many battles.

 

[laclongquan]

I know. But unfortunately IWD2 is not 1. A lot of useful tactics no longer fit the mechanisms of IWD2.

Normal diff is barely possible, but highest difficulty, and HoF mode will disable many things. Like, in HOF mode, with enemies' level being jacked up 10 shots (CR rating) Turn Undead doesnt work along with lots of saving throws spells.

 

[Jvegi]

Because you play that build incorrectly tha's why. Also micromanaging backstab is a complete bitch, yeah.

Rogue Ranger is typically a dex build, using multiple LIGHT attack in melee. And everybody know backstabing require the first hit must be heavy to maximizing effect. Hit Then AWAY. Backstab once and run the heck away. The idea of stay longer than a round is a wrong concept for backstabber.

I'm pumping the rouge levels, because the backstab damage seems like the only way she can meaningfully contribute. But the reality is I rarely bother with the backstab, especially since my fighter deals similar damage on every hit. She is more useful throwing fireballs from her amulet.

using multiple LIGHT

Are you saying the proper build is based on strength and heavy weapons? I have her using short swords and throwing daggers, mostly for role-playing. Does the weapon speed matter in this game? Does she perform the attack quicker with light weapons or is it nothing more than suckers choice?

 

[laclongquan]

We are discussing highest difficulty and HoF mode.

In such case, usually hostiles, or worthy targets, are protected by lots of buffs and abilities, and light attacks are mostly warded off. And if they have time they will launch plenty of offense. So the ideal, if possible, backstab scenario is that you kill them in one hit, or at least in one round. Using heavy attack, you cut through the stone skin/iron skin defense as much as possible in 1st hit which trigger their healing procedure, and kill them in the rest of that round so you can run away.

You understand, with stone skin/iron skin in place, light attack is useless other than to make them go away faster.

 

[Average Manatee]

The rouge/ranger is rather useless in fights. I bought her some wands so she can deal damage from the distance. She has the best hit scores in the party, but is way to fragile and backstabbing requires much micromanaging.

Because you play that build incorrectly tha's why. Also micromanaging backstab is a complete bitch, yeah.

Rogue Ranger is typically a dex build, using multiple LIGHT attack in melee. And everybody know backstabing require the first hit must be heavy to maximizing effect. Hit Then AWAY. Backstab once and run the heck away. The idea of stay longer than a round is a wrong concept for backstabber. You can do it wrongly but why? Ideally, a backstabber run away immediately after the 1st hit which kill the target, using the rest of that round. The extra time is helpful to get into a corner and re-Hide.

That tactic is powerful for a solo but for a party it's not that necessary. ESPECIALLY in IWD2, not just because stealth is broken, but also because if RNG fail your backstabber would be waaaaaay deep behind enemy line and run back is very dangerous.

So what's good for a rogue/ranger build? Most efficient use is Bow Scout, Legolas style. There is no waste in that build.

IWD2 uses 3E sneak attack rules (which are an option for IWD1). In this case you don't run away and hide, you just keep hitting enemies in the back for sneak attack damage on each hit. The problem is that AFAIK enemies will pretty much always turn and face the rogue who does a ton of sneak attack damage, and you can't get another sneak attack from the front. This is contrary to 3E rules where enemies aren't supposed to have a facing and should be taken sneak attack damage when "flanked", which is whenever you have a unit on both sides of the enemy. Because of this it's not a great build.

Ranger simply adds nothing to rogue AFAIK, and there is no way to sneak attack with ranged. So either you're a shitty long-range character with crappy AB bonuses because rogue has bad AB, or you are a crappy backstabber because the range isn't boosting your sneak attack damage.

 

[Average Manatee]

I too finished IWD Complete*. It took us a little bit more than a month. HoW and Trials of the Luremaster were rather lackluster. But overall it was lots of fun.
Today we started IWD2. Our new party consists of: Human Sorcerer (might take 1 Paladin level), Human Druid, Strongheart Halfling Rogue (might take 1 or 4 Fighter levels), Shield Dwarf Cleric (Tempus), Half-Orc Barb (maybe 1-4 Fighter lvls), and Human Wizard (Necro).

I've read a little bit about character creation (i.e. I wasted a dozen hours reading 2003 posts from Sorcerers and Ironworks), and I know it's not a 100% optimal party, but we feel pretty good about it. And it's just going to be for Normal mode.

*IWD Main Campaign Sybex Guide by Chris Avellone & Jason Suinn: https://archive.org/details/Forgotten_Realms_Icewind_Dale_Sybex_Inc/. I've got the one for the expansion on pdf too.

Peeked through this and this confirms my assertion that strength/dex/con are "bugged" in the sense that they are adding bonuses that aren't intended (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/the-icewind-dale-series-thread.54564/page-101#post-6805157). Belhefit is listed as a mere 3 THAC0 1d10+5 damage enemy which is the case until you consider that 25 strength turns that into -4 THAC0 1d10 +19 damage, and 5 proficiency cranks that up to -7 THAC0, 1d10 + 24 damage, and 4 1/2 attacks instead of 3 attacks.

EDIT: Also, I'll bet that any creature classed as a fighter-type is getting extra attacks from being a fighter that are not specifically intended. Belhefit is not a fighter class, but I'm unsure of what happens when you have e.g. level 15/15/15 and class NO_CLASS, it's possible that this counts as level 15 fighter still by the game since a 15 is in the "fighter" slot.

EDIT2: Belhefit's attacks seem to be 3 regardless of proficiency or level. Also, I just now remembered that you can enable cheat mode and use CTRL-Q to add monsters to your party and check all their stats. Everything adds up just like I said on his in-game stat table. He gets the other rank 5 proficiency bonuses aside from the attacks per turn.

EDIT3: His actual damage in practice seems to be slightly higher though. Where it should be 25-34 it's actually 29-38. No clue where the extra +4 damage is coming from. His blade can poison and disease but I don't think that adds any damage.

 

[laclongquan]

Bow is not useless. Based on ingame data, my bow user get their fairshare of kills and xp (more than 14% I think). Meanwhile, they can take down iron skin/stone skin of any one in, at most, two rounds. Which is the frontline fighters more than the backline casters because them casters usual has more defensive spells that need dispell first.

It's only seem useless in lesser difficulty because at that kind of easyness you just gather a bunch of muscleheads and sweep across battlefield.

 

[Jvegi]

The problem is that AFAIK enemies will pretty much always turn and face the rogue who does a ton of sneak attack damage, and you can't get another sneak attack from the front.

Doesn't matter since you can only sneak attack the same target every four rounds AFAIK.

I forgot about HoF being a thing. It looks like I'm not as close to being done with this unholy creation as I thought I was. This game really feels like it was done by a bunch of experienced people with many cool ideas. The issue is they had so little development time they couldn't afford to throw away the ideas that didn't work out. So it's a weird mess.

 

[Average Manatee]

I thought you could sneak attack every round with 3E sneak attack rules? If it is a 4 round cooldown then yeah that's complete garbage and I have no idea why they added that.

 

[Chippy]

The problem is that AFAIK enemies will pretty much always turn and face the rogue who does a ton of sneak attack damage, and you can't get another sneak attack from the front.

Doesn't matter since you can only sneak attack the same target every four rounds AFAIK.

I forgot about HoF being a thing. It looks like I'm not as close to being done with this unholy creation as I thought I was. This game really feels like it was done by a bunch of experienced people with many cool ideas. The issue is they had so little development time they couldn't afford to throw away the ideas that didn't work out. So it's a weird mess.

If they had such little development time, they should have left what wasn't broken and simply made a game that was fun. Instead they chose to re-invent almost perfectly aligned wheels and have them going in multiple diretions to the overall game mechanic/system that had worked for all previous IE games.

Sawyerism.

 

[Tigranes]

IWD2 was developed at a time when people were very keenly aware of how there had already been a glut of very similar IE games, how it was a late swansong even as Bioware had already moved on, and IWD1 itself was already a kind of derivative game. So it's reasonable that there were clearly perceived risks around just doing another "same thing in new rooms". As it was, the switch to third edition, and other gimmicks to try and expand the range of gameplay experiences available in IE (exploding barrels, drums call for help, etc) were often welcomed, even if I think everyone agrees IWD1 was the better game.

 

[Jigby]

If only Beamdog had found the source codes.

Spoiler

 

[Geckabor]

I thought the prologue of IWD2 was fantastic. So many roleplaying opportunities (race, class, spells, stats?). Sadly, the rest of the game doesn't hold up to that standard very much and the first part is a much better combat game overall.
I'd even go so far to say that IWD1 > BG1.

 

[Jigby]

Kinda wish they fixed rogue's sneak attack in the IWD2EE including the ability to sneak attack with ranged weapons.

So I looked at the IWD2EE project and it turns out that they ARE fixing sneak attacks, both the delay and the ability to use ranged weapons for sneak attacks.
Blessed mother, our prayers have finally been answered! Now if only they could change fog of war rendering so that there's no flickering. Also them sweet Beamdog insta quickloads/quicksaves.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I thought the prologue of IWD2 was fantastic. So many roleplaying opportunities (race, class, spells, stats?). Sadly, the rest of the game doesn't hold up to that standard very much and the first part is a much better combat game overall.
I'd even go so far to say that IWD1 > BG1.

This might be the most truthful post I have ever seen on the Codex after ~12 years on this site.

 

[Jigby]

If anyone's interested, here's the pseudocode behind random drops in IWD2 ->

Spoiler

General remarks:
1) RNDTRES.2DA is unused - the engine uses RT_NORM.2DA / RT_FURY.2DA for HOF
2) A 2DA can only be indexed as far as its X and Y headers extend. Entries > 40 are thus not able to be considered by the engine due to the cut-short header.
3) Due to an off-by-one error, the last valid column of a row is not able to be chosen - the only exception is a row with only one column.
4) Headers need to be UPPERCASE for correct operation, tier characters should be case-insensitive.

Pseudocode from reversed engine functions:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

string doItemResrefRandomize(string inputResref)
{
    <select row whose header matches inputResref>

    if (<inputResref was not present as a header>)
    {
        return inputResref
    }

    int rowSize = <count number of entries in row; an entry of "*" will immediately end a row and not contribute towards the count>
    string selectedResref = random[0, rowSize - 1) // Select a random column EXCLUDING the last. If there is only one column, choose it.

    if (selectedResref.startsWith("up"))
    {
        selectedResref = upgradeTier(inputResref, selectedResref)

        if (selectedResref == inputResref)
        {
            return "no_drop"
        }
    }

    return doItemResrefRandomize(selectedResref)
}

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

string upgradeTier(string inputResref, string selectedResref)
{
    if (inputResref.length() >= 3 && <second-to-last character in inputResref> == '_'>)
    {
        char* upgradeProgressionStr = "lmrvvvvv"
        char lastCharInInput = <last character in inputResref>
        int currentTierIndex = upgradeProgressionStr.findFirstIndexOf(lastCharInInput)

        if (currentTierIndex == -1)
        {
            // Input had invalid tier, throw input back
            return inputResref
        }

        char lastCharInSelected = <last character in selectedResref>
        int upgradeAmount;

        switch (lastCharInSelected)
        {
            case '1':
            case '2':
            case '3':
            {
                upgradeAmount = tonumber(lastCharInSelected)
                break
            }
            case 'p':
            {
                if (selectedResref.length() == 2)
                {
                    // Was just "up"
                    upgradeAmount = 1
                    break
                }
                // Input was invalid, fallthrough to default and throw input back
            }
            default:
            {
                // Input was invalid, throw input back
                return inputResref
            }
        }

        char targetUpgradeTierChar = upgradeProgressionStr.charAt(currentTierIndex + upgradeAmount)

        if (lastCharInInput != targetUpgradeTierChar)
        {
            // Replace last character in inputResref to upgraded tier and return
            return inputResref.replaceCharAt(inputResref.length() - 1, targetUpgradeTierChar)
        }
    }

    // Input was invalid, throw input back
    return inputResref
}

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Main takeaways -> it's a mess that needs to be unfucked. Tymora Loop can drop already at the beginning of Chapter 5 from the Khavros zombies and then from many more places, the only reason it doesn't is because of incorrect headers xDDD. I knew about this from playtesting, but it's nice to have it confirmed. Also the upgrade function is super limited.

-->link to the thread

 

[Jvegi]

I thought the prologue of IWD2 was fantastic. So many roleplaying opportunities (race, class, spells, stats?). Sadly, the rest of the game doesn't hold up to that standard very much and the first part is a much better combat game overall.
I'd even go so far to say that IWD1 > BG1.

This might be the most truthful post I have ever seen on the Codex after ~12 years on this site.

It's different. And what it does well has aged much better than BG1.

I'm getting close to the end of IWD2. The question of what to do next needs to be resolved. I've wasted too much time on this flawed but addicting game already.

There is this thing coming soonish: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussi...-red-chimera-group-is-looking-for-playtesters

Is HoF worth playing? Is it really? I think I should wait for the EE, experience the changes with a balanced party, and then go through HoFEE. If I play the original HoF now, I'll probably get burned out and not play the modded version.
I think it's better to wait a couple of months, focus on real-life stuff, and then go back.

Do I have to go through HoF with the party I've finished the game with?
Do you have an idea if IWD2EE has a chance of cooperating with IWD2 Tactics?

 

[Acrux]

The sheer scope of what they are trying to do with IWD2EE makes me think it's going to end up having a large number of issues. Also, that it's started by several Beamdog forum people doesn't give me a lot of confidence. But, it's supposed to be completely modular, so I guess we'll see.

I'm a big fan of IWD2 Tactics, and play through about once a year. HoF is something to experience at least once, I guess. It's not my cup of tea but Tactics does make it better, if you installed the HoF options.

The EE people say that Tactics is conceptually incompatible.