The Greater General Codex Theory of 'What is an RPG?'

[Jasede]

Wow, from HiddenX thread:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061211120&postcount=235

Seems the watch has been working this problem for some time, interesting.

Edit: Yes that's an excellent criteria they have, and I believe HiddenX did most of the work.

Spoiler

Definition of a CRPG (V0.94)

The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has a related Should Have (SH)sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a special CRPG (see Tags) or a CRPG light.

If all (SH) are fulfilled too there's no further discussion necessary -> the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.


I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

• Must Have
  C1: you can control one or more characters
  C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
  C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
• Should Have
  C4: you can create your characters
  C5: character development requires careful thought and planning

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

• Must Have
  E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations
  E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory (=> not only puzzle items)
  E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
• Should Have
  E4: there are NPCs in the game
  E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching)
  E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
  E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
  E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …)

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

• Must Have
  S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
  S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest)
  S3: you can progress through connected events (= Story)
• Should Have
  S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions
  S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
  S6: you can make choices in those interactions
  S7: your choices have consequences
  S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)

Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

• Should Have
  F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
  F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
  F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)

I had some help at the Watch and from some Codex friends as well. Here's an article about the CRPG Analyzer - a checklist (NOT a definition) for CRPGs with some explanations.
Try the interactive checklist here (made by Arhu). Start with part I, II & III. The rest is optional info.

The Watch has outdone us brothers. Look at the autism of this tool:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/crpg-analyzer.html

fixed that for you

 

[Shadowfang]

Good god so many useless questions, and most of them appear twice or thrice during the form.

"You can explore lots of unique, beautiful and interesting locations."
How wrote this shit?
Can you see unique and beautiful locations?
Hmm no, its about survival on a barren wasteland.

"There is a place you can call home."
Now i understand the punishment of being watchsied.

According to this deus ex doesn't seem to be a rpg. At least this can be useful to find games where you can gay out. There are questions about flora and non-hostile fauna.
Well in deus ex you can pick up and throw plants and there are cats and birds around. Going to say yes to both..

 

[kwanzabot]

The Greater General Codex Theory of 'What is an RPG?'

The following is a proposed general and final resolution of the age-old Codex question, 'What is an RPG?' It proposes a simple procedure by which anyone can determine if a game is an RPG or not by reviewing an exhaustive table of RPG elements, counting those elements, then determining if there are enough RPG elements to be classified as an RPG by comparing it to an arbitrary threshold number, or percentage.

Problem: What is an RPG?

Solution:

1. Codify a specific and exhaustive list of discrete RPG elements
2. Determine an arbitrary threshold whereby a game is eliminated or accepted as an RPG, based on the number of RPG elements found within that game

Proposed exhaustive list of RPG elements (subject to change based on suggestions, corrections, or related editions)

1. Character creation has some form of in-game consequences
2. Statistics which define character(s) abilities are subject to change throughout the game
3. Character(s) have skills or abilities which may improve or be altered over the course of gameplay
4. Character(s) accrue experience which can be spent or result in gaining levels or abilities
5. Character(s) accumulate items in some form of inventory, which the player can actively use (equip, sell, destroy, trade, etc.), which enhance or otherwise alter gameplay
6. Character(s) accumulate currency which may be spent to enhance the character(s) in some way (items, guild membership, training, etc.)
7. Character(s) gain levels throughout the game which result in some form of mechanical change (not just a change in character title, or description)
8. Character(s) are able to explore over terrain, water, space, etc. ('explore' refers to free movement of main character(s))
9. The game has some form of puzzle solving, which is resolved through combat, problem resolution, or some choice made by the player
10. A choice made by the player alters the narrative, or some other significant part of the game (an item is found or lost, stats or skills are gained or lost, different ending, etc.)
11. Character(s) interact with NPCs in some form of dialogue which have in-game consequences depending on what the character(s) say.
12. Optional quests (defined here as some kind of task made available after the game has started, and which can be resolved by the player before the game ends, but is not required to complete the game) are available.

Arbitrary threshold of 'RPG'

1. Not an RPG (7 or less RPG elements)
2. Generally agreed upon as an RPG (8-12 RPG elements)

Example

Is Dune II an RPG?

Consult RPG elements list: Dune II contains RPG elements #6, #7, #8, and #9.
Add the number of RPG elements: 4 total
Consult the threshold table: 4 < 7, therefore Dune II is not an RPG

Is Deus Ex an RPG?

Consult RPG elements list: Deus Ex contains RPG elements #3, #5, #6, #8, #9, #10, #11, and #12.
Add the number of RPG elements: 8 total
Consult the threshold table: 8, therefore Deus Ex is generally agreed upon as an RPG

Edit: If you think the list of RPG elements is not exhaustive and is missing an important item, list it below in the comments.

If you think 2 or more of the RPG elements should be combined, explain why below.

If you think the threshold percentage should be tweaked in some way, explain why below.

Edit2:

HiddenX criteria (quite excellent imo) for comparison and research purposes

Spoiler

Definition of a CRPG (V0.94)

The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has a related Should Have (SH)sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a special CRPG (see Tags) or a CRPG light.

If all (SH) are fulfilled too there's no further discussion necessary -> the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.


I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

• Must Have
  C1: you can control one or more characters
  C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
  C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
• Should Have
  C4: you can create your characters
  C5: character development requires careful thought and planning

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

• Must Have
  E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations
  E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory (=> not only puzzle items)
  E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
• Should Have
  E4: there are NPCs in the game
  E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching)
  E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
  E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
  E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …)

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

• Must Have
  S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
  S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest)
  S3: you can progress through connected events (= Story)
• Should Have
  S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions
  S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
  S6: you can make choices in those interactions
  S7: your choices have consequences
  S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)

Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

• Should Have
  F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
  F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
  F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)

fuck you and everything you stand for

 

[Eirinjas]

What's a Paladin?

 

[Gregz]

If it's impossible to answer the question in the OP in an absolute YES/NO, then this is probably the next best way to examine RPGs:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/crpg-analyzer.html

1) Have a monocled population input data into the above analyzer
2) Collate the data
3) Apply a Bayesian normalization model, like felipepepe did for the top 70
4) Store the results in a searchable database
5) Implement a GUI with radio buttons, or command line like: +Post-Apocalyptic +Blobber +Steampunk

And you have a Google Codex.

The primary real value of the Codex is finding good games by cutting through all the marketing and 'games journalist' bullshit. Thus a 'popularity' index value could be associated with each game also.

With this tool, you could potentially find every game ever made of the specific type that you personally enjoy as quickly as a Google search, ordered by popularity, or some other parameter of your choosing (avg game length in hours, number of players in party, etc.).

but then again...who would want something like that?

 

[kwanzabot]

i have a better option

an rpg is whatever i say it is


so stfu aspie and go back to organizing your pen collection

 

[Onholyservicebound]

i have a better option

an rpg is whatever i say it is


so stfu aspie and go back to organizing your pen collection

I say that game you like that you think is an RPG isn't an actual RPG, prove otherwise fag.

Spoiler

(To this thread:The real reason the "What is an RPG" question needs to be answered is so shitty non-RPGs can stop being advertised on the codex. TC is dead because those games suck, there's no reason to bring the cancer here.)

 

[kwanzabot]

i have a better option

an rpg is whatever i say it is


so stfu aspie and go back to organizing your pen collection

I say that game you like that you think is an RPG isn't an actual RPG, prove otherwise fag.
(The real reason the "What is an RPG" question needs to be answered is so shitty non-RPGs can stop being advertised on the codex. TC is dead because those games suck, there's no reason to bring the cancer here.)

if i didnt catch aspergers from reading the OP i caught it from whatever the fuck retard point your spic brain is trying to make

my face when monkeys quote me and expect me to care

 

[Onholyservicebound]

i have a better option

an rpg is whatever i say it is


so stfu aspie and go back to organizing your pen collection

I say that game you like that you think is an RPG isn't an actual RPG, prove otherwise fag.
(The real reason the "What is an RPG" question needs to be answered is so shitty non-RPGs can stop being advertised on the codex. TC is dead because those games suck, there's no reason to bring the cancer here.)

if i didnt catch aspergers from reading the OP i caught it from whatever the fuck retard point your spic brain is trying to make

my face when monkeys quote me and expect me to care

You're an edgy little faggot, go back to your previous rate of posting before your hurt yourself trying to understand single sentence sarcastic posts.

 

[Trashos]

Why do some people hate analytical thinkers anyway?

Further, why do some people on a site that likes turn-based combat hate analytical thinkers?

Even further, why do some people on a site that welcomes programmers ffs hate analytical thinkers?

 

[Jasede]

This is an analytical thinker.
He was so good in school they gave him a Master's degree on top of his Bachelor's when he graduated.
In school, he earned more money than his professors, coding compilers during the holidays.

He invented TeX, a typesetting method used all around the world to this day, and essential in any academic field.
He also wrote the seminal computer science books, 4 grand volumes that, it is said, if you understand them, Bill Gates will give you a job on the spot.

This man has a strong right and left brain. He can be analytical, but he can be creative as well.

This is Asper-O. He writes long posts on forums about how to classify RPGs. He comes up with checklists that are downright wrong or irrelevant.
When challenged, he does not understand why that might be seen as odd at best, and madness at worst, considering the genre of RPG has always been fuzzy.
His methodology includes giving out a score, point by point, which is like trying trying to measure the "beauty" of a poem with a ruler.

This robot is lacking all creative thought. He thinks in lists. When trying to talk to a girl, he first prepares lines in advance.


While there are some analytical thinkers that might also be Asper-O, many more Asper-Os are not analytical thinkers, writing dumb checklists for others to make fun of.

 

[Jaesun]

A cRPG is a video game that attempts to simulate the environment of a PnP session.

Some games have taken many aspects of that, and did quite well. The rest have not.

Current technology limits us from experiencing a true cRPG.

 

[hivemind]

A cRPG is a video game that attempts to simulate the environment of a PnP session.

Some games have taken many aspects of that, and did quite well. The rest have not.

Current technology limits us from experiencing a true cRPG.

this is the stupidest shit I have read today, it might be just something over 10 in the morning but still this is a very dumb position to have imo

a singleplayer computer game can NEVER truly simulate a PnP session as much as a drawing can never truly simulate a piece of music, or a movie or whatever the fuck else
videogames are a separate medium from board and PnP games and should be treated as such if their full potential is ever to be realized

 

[Akratus]

What's a Paladin?

Man I should've gone with the nick name 'Haladin'. Then people could go: What's up haladin?

 

[an Administrator]

Is Undertale an RPG?

 

[LJ40]

A cRPG is a video game that attempts to simulate the environment of a PnP session.

Some games have taken many aspects of that, and did quite well. The rest have not.

Current technology limits us from experiencing a true cRPG.

this is the stupidest shit I have read today, it might be just something over 10 in the morning but still this is a very dumb position to have imo

a singleplayer computer game can NEVER truly simulate a PnP session as much as a drawing can never truly simulate a piece of music, or a movie or whatever the fuck else
videogames are a separate medium from board and PnP games and should be treated as such if their full potential is ever to be realized

That's nothing. One time this idiot tried to tell us that

CRPG : PnP :: a drawing : music

What a fucking 'tard.

 

[Caim]

An RPG is a game where the numbers become more important than player skill in order to finish the game, without requiring the player to overcome the low numbers they start with in order to progress.

So just because people have done SL1 runs of Dark Souls does not mean Dark Souls is not an RPG.

 

[Telengard]

And what has your inclusive definition of rpg fostered? Can you go into a store and ask for an rpg and have the clerk tell you similar titles in under 30 seconds? No, because you first have to tell the clerk the names of a couple of rpgs you like, so he can narrow the focus. Which means you are both sub-classifying by name yourselves on the spot, doing the work that the classification system should be doing for you. Which is needlessly time-consuming and pointless. And, worse, it makes it terrible to introduce newblets into rpgs, since newblets don't have a knowledge of rpg titles from which to draw.

And while on the subject, a percentage definition of rpg (as this thread offers) has the same issue, since it also offers no differentiation between Diablo, Temple of Apshai, and Wasteland 2, thus making it no more useful to discussion than the empty-headed, inclusive definition we've got now.

A definition that defines nothing, thus making it no definition at all.

 

[octavius]

Is it possible to get some government funding so that we can finally get the answer of the most important question of our time?

 

[Lucky]

If the community genuinely wants to know, do a fundraiser instead and hire competent linguists. All these attempts at prescriptivism in these discussions aren't going to get you any solid results.

 

[HiddenX]

This is an analytical thinker.
He was so good in school they gave him a Master's degree on top of his Bachelor's when he graduated.
In school, he earned more money than his professors, coding compilers during the holidays.

He invented TeX, a typesetting method used all around the world to this day, and essential in any academic field.
He also wrote the seminal computer science books, 4 grand volumes that, it is said, if you understand them, Bill Gates will give you a job on the spot.

This man has a strong right and left brain. He can be analytical, but he can be creative as well.

This is Asper-O. He writes long posts on forums about how to classify RPGs. He comes up with checklists that are downright wrong or irrelevant.
When challenged, he does not understand why that might be seen as odd at best, and madness at worst, considering the genre of RPG has always been fuzzy.
His methodology includes giving out a score, point by point, which is like trying trying to measure the "beauty" of a poem with a ruler.

This robot is lacking all creative thought. He thinks in lists. When trying to talk to a girl, he first prepares lines in advance.


While there are some analytical thinkers that might also be Asper-O, many more Asper-Os are not analytical thinkers, writing dumb checklists for others to make fun of.

The Art of Computer Programming is one of the best book series I have ever read.
Just for your info:
I'm a creative computer programmer since 1982 and have written probably more and more different computer programs than Mr. Knuth. I admit that he's the better mathematician
Analytical thinking and being creative is not a contradiction.
Using checklists is an easy way to transfer expert knowledge to normal people.
An expert doesn't need a checklist - he "knows" what a CRPG is and what not. Unfortunately they are often not able to explain why they think so.

As a program designer I have often the problem to transfer expert knowledge into programs. Extracting the knowledge from the experts needs often more social skills than the actual programming skills.
The creative part is talking and testing with the end-user of the program using agile programming methods and thinking outside the box.

 

[adrix89]

cRPG are glorified strategy games with a CYOA book tacked on while mainstream RPGs have cutscenes instead.

cRPG also encourage the cardinal sin of Role Playing which is mini-maxing.

So in fact cRPGs cold be classified as a Anti-Role Playing Game.

 

[Carrion]

The "cRPGs are supposed to emulate a tabletop session" view needs to die already. Just think about that definition for a second and see if it's worth pursuing when talking about two mediums that could hardly be much further apart.

An utterly fucking retarded way that some people actually support for some unknown reason:

The correct way:

 

[adrix89]

Adventure games.....

 

[Telengard]

The "cRPGs are supposed to emulate a tabletop session" view needs to die already. Just think about that definition for a second and see if it's worth pursuing when talking about two mediums that could hardly be much further apart.

An utterly fucking retarded way that some people actually support for some unknown reason:

The correct way:

The Biowhore has taught you well, young one. Soon you will come to realize that crpg stats are themselves a limitation upon Adventure, Wonder, and Etc. And when you come to realize this, then you can at last throw off the petty limitations of the rpg, and feel the true power of the popamole flow within you.