The Greater General Codex Theory of 'What is an RPG?'

[Shadowfang]

I think i first found on the codex by goggling what is a rpg. No wonder why.

 

[Trashos]

Best thread ever (er... since I joined).

I am not sure #2 should be on the list. What do you have in mind for it, and how is it not included in #1, 2 or 4?

Also, intuitively I would have expected the "Borderline" regime to be much bigger. Like 5-7 or something.

1. Character creation has some form of in-game consequences
2. Statistics which define character(s) abilities are subject to change throughout the game
3. Character(s) have skills or abilities which may improve or be altered over the course of gameplay
4. Character(s) accrue experience which can be spent or result in gaining levels or abilities
5. Character(s) accumulate items which enhance or otherwise alter gameplay
6. Character(s) accumulate currency which may be spent to enhance the character(s) in some way (items, guild membership, training, etc.)
7. Character(s) gain levels throughout the game which result in some form of mechanical change (not just a change in character title, or description)
8. The game offers some form of exploration over terrain, water, space, etc.
9. The game has some form of puzzle solving, which is resolved through combat, problem resolution, or some choice made by the player
10. A choice made by the player alters the narrative, or some other significant part of the game (an item is found or lost, stats or skills are gained or lost, different ending, etc.)
11. Character(s) interact with NPCs in some form of dialogue which have in-game consequences depending on what the character(s) say.
12. Optional quests (defined here as some kind of task made available after the game has started, and which can be resolved by the player before the game ends, but is not required to complete the game) are available.

Below, I am not using #2 of the list, because I don't understand it. So scores are out of 11.

Football Manager has #1 (background: weekend player/ex manager/ ex coach and it affects reputation), 3 (reputation), 5 (stadium, facilities, youth academy) 6 (budget), 9 (match), 10 (apply for jobs, switch team, resign), 11 (talks with players and management).
Final score 7, generally accepted as rpg. Should have been borderline, at best, imo.

Civ4 has #1 (choice of nation and leader, giving traits, special building/military units, affects starting city location), 3 (techs), 4 (tech progress), 5 (special resources), 6 (money), 8 (exploration of earth), 9 (combat/diplomacy), 10 (choice between cultural, diplomatic, domination, science etc victories and focus on that), 11 (diplomacy).
Final score 9, generally accepted as rpg. Should have been borderline at best, imo.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

HiddenX already did this.

 

[Gregz]

I am not sure #2 should be on the list. What do you have in mind for it, and how is it not included in #1, 2 or 4?

I wanted to differentiate between a static allocation at character(s) creation influencing gameplay, vs. the ability to modify stats as the game develops. In my opinion they are both important characteristics of an RPG, some RPGs have one or the other or both. Fallout for instance does not allow in-game modification of stats after they have been chosen. I agree with you that's it's a bit fishy however, it would be nice to neatly package it into one item. I'm going to look at it again and see if I can do that. Any suggestions appreciated ofc.

Also, intuitively I would have expected the "Borderline" regime to be much bigger. Like 5-7 or something.

Well, the Codex doesn't like grey areas...we want to know if a game sucks or is awesome, if it IS an RPG or is NOT. Making a large borderline distribution defeats the premise of this model, which I'm not ready to concede yet, despite what you posted below:

Football Manager has #1 (background: weekend player/ex manager/ ex coach and it affects reputation), 3 (reputation), 5 (stadium, facilities, youth academy) 6 (budget), 9 (match), 10 (apply for jobs, switch team, resign), 11 (talks with players and management).
Final score 7, generally accepted as rpg. Should have been borderline, at best, imo.

Civ4 has #1 (choice of nation and leader, giving traits, special building/military units, affects starting city location), 3 (techs), 4 (tech progress), 5 (special resources), 6 (money), 8 (exploration of earth), 9 (combat/diplomacy), 10 (choice between cultural, diplomatic, domination, science etc victories and focus on that), 11 (diplomacy).
Final score 9, generally accepted as rpg. Should have been borderline at best, imo.

I'm OK with sports games being considered RPG (see the first page), as long as the team, or perhaps in this case the manager is the 'character'. If that character is chalk full of rpg elements, as well as that charcter's environment, I don't see a problem.

Civ 4 is a problem, and should not be considered an RPG. So let's see...I don't like the idea of 5 being equated to an item in the traditional sense (fixed this, I think), 8 I wouldn't apply either in the traditional sense as TBS games like Civ are a growing amoeba, not an individual exploring per-se, but yes, confusing. I would score it a 7 which is still too high, but I can see where the wording is not well defined enough to prohibit your interpretation. Civ IV has me stumped at the moment. Keep 'em coming if you have more examples that break the formula.

Edit: Altered a few definitions, and removed the borderline category.

HiddenX already did this.

link?

 

[Azarkon]

In all seriousness, this discussion is always kind of dumb because anything that doesn't follow the typical fantasy or sci fi tropes is iusually not considered an RPG.

That's because RPGs came out of fantasy combat simulators. The setting's relationship to the genre is as old as the genre itself. In theory, we've come to accept other settings, but the attachment remains, and it plays into what we're willing to call RPGs, and what we're not willing to call RPGs. For example, any fantasy game where "you play one character and the main gameplay involves improving your character's skills through skill use," we'd consider a RPG. But analogies in other settings do not work. For example, GTA is not considered a RPG even though it is a game where "you play one character and the main gameplay involves improving your character's skills through skill use." Just this example shows why hard & fast rules do not work for genre definition, which is based on associative reasoning and marketing. That is to say, had GTA been marketed as a RPG, we'd be talking about games similar to GTA being RPGs today, because we'd have added that additional association. But it wasn't, so we don't.

Thus, despite its importance to how the Codex operates, it's ultimately a worthless argument.

 

[Norfleet]

Despite the continued disagreement of what constitutes an RPG, I think we can all agree that despite its modern setting, THIS:

IS DEFINITELY AN RPG.

 

[undecaf]

HiddenX already did this.

link?

He probably means what's found in this thread.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/what-is-a-crpg-2014-edition.90244/

 

[typical user]

There are two definitions of what RPG is and what games fall into each category.

First group is populated with every game in which you play as certain character; human, elf, dwarf, anything that you can LARP.

Second group has games that allow you to pick different skills and achieve your goals in different ways. If you can play a hacker that is terrible shot or dumb barbarian with two heavy axes that only says "me kill, gold give" then you are playing RPG. When you have stats and or skill tree but each of your decision leads to same outcome or when there are no alternative paths to complete your tasks other than flanking enemies then you are playing typical AAA sandbox game.

 

[Gregz]

Wow, from HiddenX thread:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061211120&postcount=235

Seems the watch has been working this problem for some time, interesting.

Edit: Yes that's an excellent criteria they have, and I believe HiddenX did most of the work.

Spoiler

Definition of a CRPG (V0.94)

The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has a related Should Have (SH)sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a special CRPG (see Tags) or a CRPG light.

If all (SH) are fulfilled too there's no further discussion necessary -> the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.


I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

• Must Have
  C1: you can control one or more characters
  C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
  C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
• Should Have
  C4: you can create your characters
  C5: character development requires careful thought and planning

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

• Must Have
  E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations
  E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory (=> not only puzzle items)
  E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
• Should Have
  E4: there are NPCs in the game
  E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching)
  E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
  E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
  E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …)

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

• Must Have
  S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
  S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest)
  S3: you can progress through connected events (= Story)
• Should Have
  S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions
  S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
  S6: you can make choices in those interactions
  S7: your choices have consequences
  S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)

Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

• Should Have
  F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
  F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
  F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)

 

[Tigranes]

after much painstaking work and many arguments, a final list of discrete elements will be posted. then, people will argue ferociously about the validity of that list, and move to make individual exceptions for specific games that pass or do not pass.

a few weeks later, an intrepid soul shall post: so what is an rpg?

 

[Telengard]

Using the above means produces a definition by percentage. And while a percentage definition could indeed eventually be parsed out through such means, the question has always been - why? "RPG" is a merchandising category, and so doesn't actually need such things. What's needed is not an exact definition of the term, but a better defined broad definition. And it only needs that because so many different game styles have been haphazardly given the same name. For instance - Diablo, the Infinity Engines, and Dragon Age are by no means the same game style, but they've all been pegged with "Action RPG". And, of course, they all are different from the likes of Temple of Apshai. So, what happens when someone walks into a store and says they "want an RPG". What did they just ask for, specifically? Nobody knows.

If we wanted to actually help in this matter, instead of a using a percentage definition (which would require consulting a pocket computer and backstory whenever inquiring about a new game, and even then doesn't offer any further context for the purposes of purchasing games than the system we have now), rather, what is needed is one of two things. Either dump a bunch of game styles out of the category of RPG, or add more sub-categories to the RPG header category. That way, people can better define what they are looking for. And, well, since so many people shit a brick whenever anyone tries to do the former, it's gonna be the latter.

Unfortunately, nothing will change unless some authority figure introduces such a system, or the merchants adopt something of the sort of their own accord. But for the purposes of exercising the brain, here's the kind of thing it would look like were it to come to pass:

Traditional RPG - a game that attempts to emulate the old-school pen & paper rpg experience on a computer.

* And from there, anything else is - rightly - a hybrid. *

Adventure RPG - a game that mixes interactive storytelling and inventory puzzles (fetch quests) with the traditional rpg experience. Very popular in certain parts of the world.

Storybook RPG - a game that tells a non-interactive story interspersed with periods of the traditional rpg experience. Prime Example: Final Fantasy.

Gauntlet RPG - a game that mixes the traditional rpg experience with run-n-gun combat (as in, running the gauntlet). Prime Example: Diablo.

Action RPG - a game that mixes hack-n-slash personal combat with the traditional rpg experience. Prime Example: Witcherz.

Action Adventure - a game that mixes hack-n-slash personal combat (or shooter combat) with interactive storytelling and inventory puzzles (fetch quests). Prime Example: Mass Effect 2.

Otaku RPG - a game that may make use of traditional rpg elements, but that is primarily designed to give copious amounts of hip in-jokes and in-the-know references to lovers of Japanimation. Prime Example: Undertale.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Prime example of Otaku RPG should be Neptunia, not Undertale.

 

[Zanzoken]

1. Character creation has some form of in-game consequences
2. Statistics which define character(s) abilities

These are the only things that matter. Building your own distinct character, and that character's stats having important effects in gameplay -- that is the essence of an RPG.

 

[an Administrator]

If Borderlands is an RPG according to your system, you shoud really rethink about it.

 

[Plane Escapee]

A (computer) role-playing game is a Strategy, Action or FPS game that sucks at being a Strategy, Action or FPS game because the developers have thrown in elements irrelevant to the core Strategy, Action or FPS experience relating to character development and choices and consequences within the narrative and have designed the game with the intention to emphasize these elements to be equal to or above the core Strategy, Action or FPS elements.

Also, your character has a purple afro.

 

[Jasede]

A game where you make numbers go bigger so you can kill bigger monsters to make numbers go bigger faster.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Ultimately, it's just a loose term of convenience. There's plenty of other terms that are useful without having any agreed exclusive or inclusive criteria. 'Person' is a good example - try coming up with a definition of personhood, or 'human life', that excludes human cancer cells, excludes brain-dead organisms whose organs are kept operating solely by artificial means (like a recently deceased corpse on a really thorough life support system), but includes normal people on life support (i.e. who are excluded by any definition that requires 'self-perpetuating biological system'), people in long-term comas, people with mutations giving extra limbs or missing limbs, people severely mentally impaired from birth, etc.

Democracy is another one. You can argue - sensibly too - that something is more or less democratic, or that a system is or isn't democratic, but any fixed criteria will either include systems that it really shouldn't, or exclude systems that are recognisably, albeit imperfectly, democratic.

The best categorisation I can think of is as a tradition. There's a tradition - or, arguably, 2-3 overlapping traditions - of gaming that is referred to as rpg, and the term is correctly applied if a game is recognisably part of one of those lineages. That allows for future development of the genre, while capturing a fair bit of what one means when you say 'but that isn't a crpg' - i.e. it isn't recognisably part of the same tradition of games.

 

[Got bored and left]

Despite the continued disagreement of what constitutes an RPG, I think we can all agree that despite its modern setting, THIS:

IS DEFINITELY AN RPG.

But can you romance lesbian elves with it?

 

[Norfleet]

But can you romance lesbian elves with it?

Rule 34 says that yes, yes you can.

 

[mondblut]

This time of the month again

If a computer game strives to simulate the experience of playing a tabletop RPG (i.e. D&D and its derivatives), it's a CRPG to the extent in which it succeeds in said simulation. If it doesn't, it is not. End of story.

 

[Beastro]

 

[Grampy_Bone]

RPGs are combat simulators. Abstract simulation mechanics have persisted in the genre since day 1, from tabletop to computers.

Story, quests, dialogue, etc are all well and good, but none of that makes a game an RPG. If you take the story out of Fallout, is it still an RPG? Sure. Take out the combat and what do you get? A "visual novel" or adventure game (and a sales failure). GTA is not an RPG because it doesn't simulate enough. It's also why Skyrim and Fallout 3/4 are punching bags here; they don't feel abstract enough. Take out the abstract layer and it stops being an RPG.

Civ isn't an RPG because it's not based around simulating combat, it simulates building an empire. The combat is secondary.

RPGs are combat simulators. That's it. No big list of criteria or taxonomy needed.

 

[HiddenX]

Wow, from HiddenX thread:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061211120&postcount=235

Seems the watch has been working this problem for some time, interesting.

Edit: Yes that's an excellent criteria they have, and I believe HiddenX did most of the work.

Spoiler

Definition of a CRPG (V0.94)

The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has a related Should Have (SH)sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a special CRPG (see Tags) or a CRPG light.

If all (SH) are fulfilled too there's no further discussion necessary -> the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.


I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

• Must Have
  C1: you can control one or more characters
  C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
  C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
• Should Have
  C4: you can create your characters
  C5: character development requires careful thought and planning

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

• Must Have
  E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations
  E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory (=> not only puzzle items)
  E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
• Should Have
  E4: there are NPCs in the game
  E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching)
  E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
  E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
  E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …)

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

• Must Have
  S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
  S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest)
  S3: you can progress through connected events (= Story)
• Should Have
  S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions
  S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
  S6: you can make choices in those interactions
  S7: your choices have consequences
  S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)

Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

• Should Have
  F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
  F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
  F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)

I had some help at the Watch and from some Codex friends as well. Here's an article about the CRPG Analyzer - a checklist (NOT a definition) for CRPGs with some explanations.
Try the interactive checklist here (made by Arhu). Start with part I, II & III. The rest is optional info.

 

[Gregz]

Wow, from HiddenX thread:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061211120&postcount=235

Seems the watch has been working this problem for some time, interesting.

Edit: Yes that's an excellent criteria they have, and I believe HiddenX did most of the work.

Spoiler

Definition of a CRPG (V0.94)

The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has a related Should Have (SH)sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a special CRPG (see Tags) or a CRPG light.

If all (SH) are fulfilled too there's no further discussion necessary -> the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.


I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

• Must Have
  C1: you can control one or more characters
  C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats or abilities (=> e.g. through quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
  C3: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
• Should Have
  C4: you can create your characters
  C5: character development requires careful thought and planning

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

• Must Have
  E1: by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations
  E2: you can find items that can be collected in an inventory (=> not only puzzle items)
  E3: you can find information sources (=> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
• Should Have
  E4: there are NPCs in the game
  E5: you can choose a path (=> there is at least some branching)
  E6: you can manipulate the game world in some way (=> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
  E7: the gameworld can affect your party (=> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
  E8: you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles (=> e.g. unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …)

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

• Must Have
  S1: you can get info from information sources (=> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
  S2: you can follow quests (=> there is at least one main quest)
  S3: you can progress through connected events (= Story)
• Should Have
  S4: the story is influenced more or less by your actions
  S5: you can interact with information sources (=> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
  S6: you can make choices in those interactions
  S7: your choices have consequences
  S8: advancing in the story requires thought (=> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)

Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

• Should Have
  F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (=> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
  F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
  F3: Combat should be challenging (=> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)

I had some help at the Watch and from some Codex friends as well. Here's an article about the CRPG Analyzer - a checklist (NOT a definition) for CRPGs with some explanations.
Try the interactive checklist here (made by Arhu). Start with part I, II & III. The rest is optional info.

The Watch has outdone us brothers. Look at the sophistication of this tool:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/crpg-analyzer.html

 

[Dorateen]

I don't often wade into this discussion, but here's an apt description I came across:

A role-playing game pairs the tactical qualities of tabletop miniature war games with the flexibility and imagination of group storytelling. Led through these imaginary adventures by a referee, each player develops a customized character complete with a unique persona and set of tangible attributes, to be guided through the adventure cooperatively with other players. Furthermore, unlike common board games that are meant to be played and concluded in one sitting, in a role-playing game both your character(s) and the adventure are ongoing and upgradable, creating a more intense and lasting sense of continuity.