The Elder Scrolls Online

[Xenich]

You know, about Legendary Items in LoTRO as it concerns PTW/FTP gimmicks. I remember before Moria was released, reading up on the Legendary item system and being very excited. The developer had a diary he was keeping on the development and the system was going to be amazing. At the last minuted he claimed it was scrapped and he had to design another (in the last month or so). The result is the lotto system you see today. I always wondered why they chose such gambling Vegas slot machine approach. Most hated it, it was an excessive grind, taking hundreds of the weapons to finally get something that might be actually useful for your class. It is because they were setting up for the addition of micro-transactions. The legendary system is a perfect fit for that model and it reminded me of the games that were FTP to start, how they had lots of mundane grind content features with lots of gambling based content to encourage store use.

 

[Xenich]

There is a reason why I put "F2P" in apostrophes. I am very well aware of the many pitfalls in "F2P", but my points still stand. "F2P" can offer more flexibility and it can make things cheaper, depending on how mature you are. If you are some retard who thinks he has to throw 50 bucks at the game company whenever they release a new shiny pet, well all I can say, "your fault". Peoples retardation and inability to properly monitor themselves is no excuse to condemn every game using this model, or the model in general or people who use it. Many people are mature enough to monitor themselves, myself included. Are there plenty of abusive games out there in this regard? Sure. What to do? Fucking avoid. It's not hard.
As to your LotR example, never liked the game so don't care, but most companies who maintain a MMO did not change from subscription to "F2P" because they wanted to. Usually it meant that they could not maintain a high enough user base to warrant a subscription model and needed other incentives, where "F2P" comes in. That they could not maintain the same level of quality is directly correlated to this as well. If they had massive amount of customers they would have never been forced to change in the first place, so don't blame "F2P" for all it's woes it had.

The only "F2P" game I spent more than 5 bucks on so far in 5 years is Marvel Heroes, and considering the massive improvements Gazillion provided they damn well earned some cash for their efforts, especially considering they are working with an expensive license, I sincerely doubt that Marvel let them do their stuff for free, not to mention they must get approval for basically everything they do by Marvel.

It is those retards that pay the bills to keep the game going though. See, you have a trade off. Because you don't want to spend money to play the game, other people have to and those people are the ones that set the stage for FTP content development and focus. Now you may not care, you may be the type of player that plays an MMO with the same attention and interest as people play mobile games, but make no mistake that it is the "retards" to which those games are being developed for and that is why many people like me can't stand playing the games, even if we were paid to. The content is so retarded, so lack luster, so moronic that it would be preferable to eat a bullet than be subjected to it.

I think the problem with why so many paid subs games fail these days is:

1) They attempt to go after the WoW crowd, gamers and WoW players don't see eye to eye.

2) They expect to make profits like WoW and so fail due to their investors expectations (not because they can't be profitable).

Those companies go FTP to meet a profit level expectation, because... like I said... these guys are in the business to make money.


It is sad really. MMOs have suffered the same fate of PC gaming. They were hijacked by corporations and marketing people.

MMOs used to be designed for the sake of making a "game" and sought to be profitable in such. That is, the game was he point, the profit was the vehicle in hopes of supporting that venture.

These days, profit is the main goal, the game is merely a widget, a means to obtain profit and it matters not what that widget is, only that is brings in as much profit as possible.

The former created games, the latter creates gimmicks.

One is for gamers, the other is for suckers.

 

[Sykar]

It is those retards that pay the bills to keep the game going though. See, you have a trade off. Because you don't want to spend money to play the game, other people have to and those people are the ones that set the stage for FTP content development and focus. Now you may not care, you may be the type of player that plays an MMO with the same attention and interest as people play mobile games, but make no mistake that it is the "retards" to which those games are being developed for and that is why many people like me can't stand playing the games, even if we were paid to. The content is so retarded, so lack luster, so moronic that it would be preferable to eat a bullet than be subjected to it.

I think the problem with why so many paid subs games fail these days is:

1) They attempt to go after the WoW crowd, gamers and WoW players don't see eye to eye.

2) They expect to make profits like WoW and so fail due to their investors expectations (not because they can't be profitable).

Those companies go FTP to meet a profit level expectation, because... like I said... these guys are in the business to make money.


It is sad really. MMOs have suffered the same fate of PC gaming. They were hijacked by corporations and marketing people.

MMOs used to be designed for the sake of making a "game" and sought to be profitable in such. That is, the game was he point, the profit was the vehicle in hopes of supporting that venture.

These days, profit is the main goal, the game is merely a widget, a means to obtain profit and it matters not what that widget is, only that is brings in as much profit as possible.

The former created games, the latter creates gimmicks.

One is for gamers, the other is for suckers.

I spend about 100 euros on MH over the course of the year, so I feel entitled to say I did my fair share of supporting the game. I am willing to pay IF the game is actually at the very decent and I can see that the developers care about their game. There are plenty of cash grabs of course in which some shitty crap gets half arsed together by some talentless hacks and pray that enough retards fall for that kind of stuff.

Your generalization is pretty faulty and holds no merit. Wether a game is good or not and wether a game was designed mostly for gamers or mostly for profit has nothing to do with the model, PoE and MH 2015 are great examples of that. Considering that this was also WoW's fault with people happily paying 20 bucks inane shit like gender or race change I can only say: You reap what you sow.

 

[Zewp]

That is kind of the problem these days. We don't object to shit, we rationalize how it isn't "that bad" of shit. As long as people keep paying for it, they will keep shoveling it.

I still don't get how some guy paying $15 a month leveling up 10% faster is somehow abusive to F2P users.

In fact, it's not the F2P users being abused. It's the poor unlucky sod paying $15 a month who is being abused because his only reward is leveling up 10% faster and he has to pay $15 a month indefinitely to retain access to content everyone else has to pay for once.

There are lots of abusive F2P models. This ain't one.

 

[Xenich]

I still don't get how some guy paying $15 a month leveling up 10% faster is somehow abusive.

In fact, it's not the F2P users being abused. It's the poor unlucky sod paying $15 a month who is being abused because his only reward is leveling up 10% faster and he has to pay $15 a month indefinitely to retain access to content everyone else has to pay for once.

There are lots of abusive F2P models. This ain't one.

It is paying to circumvent game play. What happened to the days where playing the game was the point? What does that say about paying? I mean... "Hey, come play our game... It is really good and you will have a lot of fun!!! Oh and as an incentive, if you pay us money... we will allow you to circumvent game play!!"

I thought the game was fun? If you have to pay money to circumvent game play, then that is piss poor game design. Shouldn't a game be worth playing? I mean, if the game is good, wouldn't you want to actually play it and not circumvent its features? Hmm?

Micro transactions can't survive in a good game. You see, if the game is good, people won't want to circumvent the rules... unless... they are just cheaters.

So we have to ask ourselves... Are FTP good games that just have lots of cheaters paying the bills? Or... are they shit games filled with gimmicks that make people want to cheat to get past the horrible rules and game play? Which is it?

 

[Xenich]

I spend about 100 euros on MH over the course of the year, so I feel entitled to say I did my fair share of supporting the game. I am willing to pay IF the game is actually at the very decent and I can see that the developers care about their game. There are plenty of cash grabs of course in which some shitty crap gets half arsed together by some talentless hacks and pray that enough retards fall for that kind of stuff.

Your generalization is pretty faulty and holds no merit. Wether a game is good or not and wether a game was designed mostly for gamers or mostly for profit has nothing to do with the model, PoE and MH 2015 are great examples of that. Considering that this was also WoW's fault with people happily paying 20 bucks inane shit like gender or race change I can only say: You reap what you sow.

You are seriously comparing a Diablo clone and a mobile game to MMOs?

They do not operate anywhere near the same level of requirements that an MMO does.

BTW, we are back to my main point. You are making excuses as to why shit is ok because you find it worthy to pick the chunks of corn out it. You go ahead and settle, I won't.

 

[Sykar]

You are seriously comparing a Diablo clone and a mobile game to MMOs?

They do not operate anywhere near the same level of requirements that an MMO does.

BTW, we are back to my main point. You are making excuses as to why shit is ok because you find it worthy to pick the chunks of corn out it. You go ahead and settle, I won't.

I am making no excuses. You are just bitter about your precious LotR and blame everything on "F2P", when in reality the problem is much more complex than that. Last time I checked, these games required servers and maintenance as well, which doesn't pay by itself. I also fund it hilarious that you claim one of these games is a mobile game, when both are "Diablo" clones, not that this term is idiotic since Diablo was never the first of its kind.

That being said, I am long out of MMOs since they are the same grindig shit over and over while also being fucking slow. At least in games like Path of Exile or Marvel Heroes you level fast and gear fast so it's not a big concern. That people are willing to pay subscription and full price is beyond me for current generation of MMOs. None out there which deserve it, not even close.

 

[Xenich]

I am making no excuses. You are just bitter about your precious LotR and blame everything on "F2P", when in reality the problem is much more complex than that. Last time I checked, these games required servers and maintenance as well, which doesn't pay by itself. I also fund it hilarious that you claim one of these games is a mobile game, when both are "Diablo" clones, not that this term is idiotic since Diablo was never the first of its kind.

That being said, I am long out of MMOs since they are the same grindig shit over and over while also being fucking slow. At least in games like Path of Exile or Marvel Heroes you level fast and gear fast so it's not a big concern. That people are willing to pay subscription and full price is beyond me for current generation of MMOs. None out there which deserve it, not even close.

My precious LoTRO? I watched FTP mentality destroy all MMOs. Its the mentality of cheaters and the entitled generation. It didn't just destroy LoTRO, it has infected all MMOs. There is nothing but that shit left anymore. EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, DDO, etc... have either been killed completely or turned into a PTW themepark chasing after the WoW crowd of lazy players.

Ok, Marvel Heroes... I thought you meant Monster House, my bad. Haven't played Marvel, read up a bit and it lives off store sales (PTW features, etc...), so I doubt I ever will. What I meant about PoE is that it does not operate at the same level of a MMO. they have servers, but it isn't the same as what is required for MMOs in both tech and attention.

See, the problem here is again mentality. You see "Level fast and gear fast" as bonuses, I see it as missing the point. Your mentality and Mine are at complete odds. Right now, the market is appealing to your mentality and what does it contain? A bunch of boring pointless grind games with PTW all designed to facilitate lazy players who want quick entertainment without any effort. Shit... all shit. Here you are defending it and yet even you call it shit.

Like I said, like a battered wife, you are defending this shit. It is like you can't seem to realize that your very requirements for a game to be entertaining to you is the very thing that burns you out on them. Its like a self fulfilled prophecy. WoW crowd comes into game, demands it be like WoW, then leaves it bitching about how it sucks because it is boring and bland.

I swear, it is... /facepalm

 

[Sykar]

My precious LoTRO? I watched FTP mentality destroy all MMOs. Its the mentality of cheaters and the entitled generation. It didn't just destroy LoTRO, it has infected all MMOs. There is nothing but that shit left anymore. EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, DDO, etc... have either been killed completely or turned into a PTW themepark chasing after the WoW crowd of lazy players.

Ok, Marvel Heroes... I thought you meant Monster House, my bad. Haven't played Marvel, read up a bit and it lives off store sales (PTW features, etc...), so I doubt I ever will. What I meant about PoE is that it does not operate at the same level of a MMO. they have servers, but it isn't the same as what is required for MMOs in both tech and attention.

See, the problem here is again mentality. You see "Level fast and gear fast" as bonuses, I see it as missing the point. Your mentality and Mine are at complete odds. Right now, the market is appealing to your mentality and what does it contain? A bunch of boring pointless grind games with PTW all designed to facilitate lazy players who want quick entertainment without any effort. Shit... all shit. Here you are defending it and yet even you call it shit.

Like I said, like a battered wife, you are defending this shit. It is like you can't seem to realize that your very requirements for a game to be entertaining to you is the very thing that burns you out on them. Its like a self fulfilled prophecy. WoW crowd comes into game, demands it be like WoW, then leaves it bitching about how it sucks because it is boring and bland.

I swear, it is... /facepalm

Marvel Heroes has not a single "PTW" feature, stop commenting on games you have 0 clue about. The rest of your rant is nothing more than baseless accusations founded on ignorant assumptions regurgitating the same crap you spewed earlier.

You really lack reading comprehension skills. Games like MH are nice relaxing popamaloes which go fast and easy and at least challenge my twitch skills . MMOs of this generation offer the same but it's just boring slog fest with massively bloated HP often with a pretentious boring story, same fetch or kill quests over and over, taking 15 to 30 minutes to complete each, "cuz reasons" while not offering a single challenge. When you finally do get a level up you can marvel at that 1% more damage, hooray! Why the fuck would I play the same in MMOs when I can play that already in much better designed and much more fun aRPGs of the as you call it "Diablo" type? MMOs offer nothing over these games except more tedium.

Yeah, the market is "appealing to my mentality" when you got no idea what my mentality you clueless moron. If the market would be so great for "my mentality" then why the fuck do I mostly play games which are 10 years old or more and haven't touched MMOs in years because they are complete crap? Seriously, do you have any logic skills at all? Let me spell it out for you, I play aRPGs because they offer the same as MMOs in a much better fashion and for much less money. For me to play MMOs again I'd actually need something better than the games mentioned by you. Do you get this now? All I did is denying that "F2P" is the main reason MMOs are shit right now. Has nothing to do with F2P but with games being so popular in comparison to 10 years ago in conjunction with exploding costs for games and WoW's success making most MMO developers blind, thinking that WoW is the holy grail of MMOs when it is at best an average slow paced pop a mole and mostly made for the casual market. I'd rather play another round Diablo 1 or Diablo 2 over current generation of MMOs, much less time wasted while essentially playing the same type of content, just with less HP bloat.

 

[Zewp]

It is paying to circumvent game play. What happened to the days where playing the game was the point? What does that say about paying? I mean... "Hey, come play our game... It is really good and you will have a lot of fun!!! Oh and as an incentive, if you pay us money... we will allow you to circumvent game play!!"

Seriously man, it's 10%. People who want to experience the all content will still stick around and experience it and people who only want to get to the end-game content would have rushed through anyway. It's not like the game locks you out of certain content just because you're leveling 10% faster than other players.

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here, man. If they start charging you to use mounts or you have to buy day passes for fast-travel like in LoTRO, I'll gladly pick up my pitchfork alongside you. But getting angry because someone is paying $15 to level 10% faster? lolnope.

 

[Xenich]

Marvel Heroes has not a single "PTW" feature, stop commenting on games you have 0 clue about. The rest of your rant is nothing more than baseless accusations founded on ignorant assumptions regurgitating the same crap you spewed earlier.

You really lack reading comprehension skills. Games like MH are nice relaxing popamaloes which go fast and easy and at least challenge my twitch skills . MMOs of this generation offer the same but it's just boring slog fest with massively bloated HP often with a pretentious boring story, same fetch or kill quests over and over, taking 15 to 30 minutes to complete each, "cuz reasons" while not offering a single challenge. When you finally do get a level up you can marvel at that 1% more damage, hooray! Why the fuck would I play the same in MMOs when I can play that already in much better designed and much more fun aRPGs of the as you call it "Diablo" type? MMOs offer nothing over these games except more tedium.

Fractals, exp potions, etc.. Pay to win is anything that you get that circumvents required game play to achieve it. Same old excuses that amount to the same position. You want to be "entertained", not play a game.

Yeah, the market is "appealing to my mentality" when you got no idea what my mentality you clueless moron. If the market would be so great for "my mentality" then why the fuck do I mostly play games which are 10 years old or more and haven't touched MMOs in years because they are complete crap? Seriously, do you have any logic skills at all? Let me spell it out for you, I play aRPGs because they offer the same as MMOs in a much better fashion and for much less money. For me to play MMOs again I'd actually need something better than the games mentioned by you. Do you get this now? All I did is denying that "F2P" is the main reason MMOs are shit right now. Has nothing to do with F2P but with games being so popular in comparison to 10 years ago in conjunction with exploding costs for games and WoW's success making most MMO developers blind, thinking that WoW is the holy grail of MMOs when it is at best an average slow paced pop a mole and mostly made for the casual market. I'd rather play another round Diablo 1 or Diablo 2 over current generation of MMOs, much less time wasted while essentially playing the same type of content, just with less HP bloat.

Yet here you are defending PTW, casual play, and everything that has led to where we are.


You are a fucking poser. Piss off to your little fucking coffee shop neckbeard.

 

[Sykar]

Fractals, exp potions, etc.. Pay to win is anything that you get that circumvents required game play to achieve it. Same old excuses that amount to the same position. You want to be "entertained", not play a game.




Yet here you are defending PTW, casual play, and everything that has led to where we are.


You are a fucking poser. Piss off to your little fucking coffee shop neckbeard.

Cute, an ignorant loser is because his moronic "argument" got smashed and all that is left is namecalling. You proved once again that you have 0 clue about Marvel Heroes as well or at the very least have no idea what "P2W" actually is. Continue with your juvenile namecalling, it's rather amusing how you revel in your ignorance, albeit I am not surprised that logic is not your strong suit.

 

[Xenich]

Seriously man, it's 10%. People who want to experience the all content will still stick around and experience it and people who only want to get to the end-game content would have rushed through anyway. It's not like the game locks you out of certain content just because you're leveling 10% faster than other players.

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here, man. If they start charging you to use mounts or you have to buy day passes for fast-travel like in LoTRO, I'll gladly pick up my pitchfork alongside you. But getting angry because someone is paying $15 to level 10% faster? lolnope.

You are rationalizing. You aren't going to get me to accept it because it isn't as "bad" as you think. It doesn't change the fact of what it is.

Zewp, you are sliding down that slope to constant rationalization. It is the continued acceptance, just a bit more, a little more, that is ok, that isn;t as bad, etc... which is the problem.

As for LoTRO. Seriously, that game is all over PTW. What do you think legendary item enhancement is? Seriously, with a fist full of cash you can have a fucking amazing legendary item.

I am not angry that someone is leveling faster, it is just more of the same. More "its only this...", "It isn't that bad"

It is still Pay to win though. What they are saying is that if you pay, you can level faster, get more gold per kill, more faction, etc... You are paying to cheat in a game. It doesn't matter that the cheat is small in its reward, that doesn't change the fact. It is still cheating, still having people pay money to circumvent gameplay. I am not mad, I just think people are fucking retarded for accepting it.

 

[Xenich]

Cute, an ignorant loser is because his moronic "argument" got smashed and all that is left is namecalling. You proved once again that you have 0 clue about Marvel Heroes as well or at the very least have no idea what "P2W" actually is. Continue with your juvenile namecalling, it's rather amusing how you revel in your ignorance, albeit I am not surprised that logic is not your strong suit.

Ignorant?

You kept moving the goal post.

Name calling?

You called me a clueless moron?

Please kill yourself you stupid fuck.

 

[Metro]

Why do you guys waste your time arguing with Xenich. Guy hangs out in the MMO forum all the time just to bemoan the loss of the 'good ol' days' of WoW.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Anyways, I'll probably end up returning to the game to finish the story lines of the other factions, and do some dungeons.

The group experience as a healer is refreshing, problem is... Getting a group with the horrible group finder

 

[Zewp]

You are rationalizing. You aren't going to get me to accept it because it isn't as "bad" as you think. It doesn't change the fact of what it is.

Zewp, you are sliding down that slope to constant rationalization. It is the continued acceptance, just a bit more, a little more, that is ok, that isn;t as bad, etc... which is the problem.

As for LoTRO. Seriously, that game is all over PTW. What do you think legendary item enhancement is? Seriously, with a fist full of cash you can have a fucking amazing legendary item.

I am not angry that someone is leveling faster, it is just more of the same. More "its only this...", "It isn't that bad"

It is still Pay to win though. What they are saying is that if you pay, you can level faster, get more gold per kill, more faction, etc... You are paying to cheat in a game. It doesn't matter that the cheat is small in its reward, that doesn't change the fact. It is still cheating, still having people pay money to circumvent gameplay. I am not mad, I just think people are fucking retarded for accepting it.

You're taking an ant and turning it into an antlion. If you want me to shit my pants because of something that's not going to end up affecting my gameplay at all, you're not going to manage it. I'm not going to play ESO any differently under the new system than I would have under the old subscription model. LoTRO is P2W (don't know how bad your reading comprehension is that you thought I said this wasn't the case), but ESO is not.

It's a pity I didn't check the GW2 thread earlier. I could have laughed it off and ended this conversation earlier. You go play your vanilla WoW and I'll go play my "P2W" MMOs, mate. I won't be burning down anybody's offices with you because they let you level up 10% faster if you pay a rip-off sum of money a month.

 

[AW8]

For comparison, BioWare's announcement that SWTOR would turn F2P came 7 months after release, and the game turned F2P 11 months after release.

Let us all play the guessing game! My guess is that the F2P announcement will come 9 months after release.

9 months and 17 days. Cowabunga! Cowabunga! I won! I won!!

The Elder Scrolls Online also won. It won the award of "The TES Game Nobody Wanted".

 

[abija]

Here is the thing. With the FTP model, as I said... they have to encourage people to spend money which has an effect on the way the produce content how it is approached. The goal is to get you into the store to spend money. With a Pay to Play model, the goal is to keep you subbing and to encourage you to buy the next content update. It is in their best interest to create quality content that keeps their subscription base logging back in and people buying the new content. FTP only cares that you buy from the store.

Bullshit. You are comparing real life FTP games with some theorycraft version of PTP ones...

 

[Xenich]

You're taking an ant and turning it into an antlion. If you want me to shit my pants because of something that's not going to end up affecting my gameplay at all, you're not going to manage it. I'm not going to play ESO any differently under the new system than I would have under the old subscription model. LoTRO is P2W (don't know how bad your reading comprehension is that you thought I said this wasn't the case), but ESO is not.

It's a pity I didn't check the GW2 thread earlier. I could have laughed it off and ended this conversation earlier. You go play your vanilla WoW and I'll go play my "P2W" MMOs, mate. I won't be burning down anybody's offices with you because they let you level up 10% faster if you pay a rip-off sum of money a month.

Pay to win is not a quantification. Something doesn't all of a sudden become PTW because it hits a certain advantage of cheat. That is what you are arguing. You are saying that it isn't that big of deal, so it isn't PTW. I agree that the 10% exp or similar isn't "that big of a deal", but... it doesn't change that it is still PTW which is... paying money to circumvent game play. As for LoTRO, sorry... I missed "like in", my bad, sometimes my speed reading gets moving too fast lowering my comprehension rate.

Also, I am not trying to convince you to storm the castle. Making all kinds of excuses to justify it is retarded, just accept it and move on. People like the idiot here have their own perfect little definition that they have created so they can justify to themselves that they aren't cheating. It is like the same type of idiots that refuse to play a game on "easy" , but demands that hard or normal be made easier for them (saw this argument a few times on the D:OS forums).

If they admit it, then we don't have to play this fucking game where they are saying it isn't but it really is. Its like a double speak to try and convince stupid people. "Nope, that's not pay to win at all... PTW is when the moon is at its apex and I am eating my dinner sitting on a table with one leg while "can you dance" is playing on banjo's made out of whale tongues and cat whiskers. So no, not pay to win at all, well of course unless it benefits me then that isn't PTW either, its... well... with 2 legs on the table."

Here is the thing. Honestly, I don't care if people like that type of game play. To each their own, but... they fucking demand that shit in every game. Every time a game comes out, the fucktards rush to the forums demanding that the game be FTP, because... you know... PTP is so outdated, FTP is with the times man, its all the rave!! They throw tantrums, etc... You have that crowd, then.... you have the fucktard WoW crowd who wants everything made easy. They want travel that allows them to travel anywhere in seconds. They want maps and quests that auto fill and guide you to where you need to go. They want no trash mobs, only boss mobs in dungeons that take 5 mins to run. They don't want gear to drop, they want tokens so they can run that 5 min dungeon over and over to buy epic gear. They want no text, everything has to be voiced because "redding is hurd". The levels to be very fast because you know... the end game is where it is all at. Who cares about all that content in-between, lets get to the end game so we can bitch and moan about there being nothing to do. I could go on and on....

So the result is a fucking retarded game made so easy that these fucktards move on to something else. No wonder the fucking idiots want FTP. I mean, I wouldn't want spend the price of the game and a sub to play for a few weeks of content because I blew through it in nothing flat.

See, FTP fits a certain mentality. It is for those who don't want to play a game, but want some quick entertainment. That is why it can't be difficult, it can't take time, it can't require effort unless it offers people the chance to circumvent all of that through RMT.

You enjoy that type of game. honestly, I hope you enjoy it and I think there should be games like these out there for people who like that. I just want those who decide to storm the forms of a game that we who do not like such would maybe give us some room? You know... just one fucking game that isn't catered to that menality? Seriously... ONE FUCKING GAME PLEASE?

Nope, because of the FTP fucktards and their nature, they will be off to the next game coming out... demanding it be like all the other fucking shit out that they play.

BTW, I don't considered Vanilla WoW to be that great of a game. It was ok, but theme parks are flawed at their core.

 

[Zewp]

So they'll be selling health, mana and stamina potions on the crown store. O lol.

Now THAT is pay 2 win.

 

[Norfleet]

Pay to win is not a quantification. Something doesn't all of a sudden become PTW because it hits a certain advantage of cheat. That is what you are arguing. You are saying that it isn't that big of deal, so it isn't PTW. I agree that the 10% exp or similar isn't "that big of a deal", but... it doesn't change that it is still PTW which is... paying money to circumvent game play. As for LoTRO, sorry... I missed "like in", my bad, sometimes my speed reading gets moving too fast lowering my comprehension rate.

You say circumventing gameplay like it's a bad thing. The entire point of every game is to circumvent gameplay: To move from playing the game to gaming the game.

The levels to be very fast because you know... the end game is where it is all at. Who cares about all that content in-between, lets get to the end game so we can bitch and moan about there being nothing to do. I could go on and on....

I've never understood this. Yes, I agree, the content in-between is useless, because the end game IS where it's all at, where everything MATTERS. I don't necessarily agree this is RIGHT, but this is what IS. Why, then, do they bitch about the part where they can finally begin doing things that MATTER, like accumulating massive quantities of filthy lucre?

 

[Xenich]

Pay to win is not a quantification. Something doesn't all of a sudden become PTW because it hits a certain advantage of cheat. That is what you are arguing. You are saying that it isn't that big of deal, so it isn't PTW. I agree that the 10% exp or similar isn't "that big of a deal", but... it doesn't change that it is still PTW which is... paying money to circumvent game play. As for LoTRO, sorry... I missed "like in", my bad, sometimes my speed reading gets moving too fast lowering my comprehension rate.

You say circumventing gameplay like it's a bad thing. The entire point of every game is to circumvent gameplay: To move from playing the game to gaming the game.

Gaming the game using outside elements is not gaming at all, it is simply cheating. The entire point of a game is to be held to the rules of such and finding ways within the rules to beat it. Circumventing the rules is just disregarding the rules.

I've never understood this. Yes, I agree, the content in-between is useless, because the end game IS where it's all at, where everything MATTERS. I don't necessarily agree this is RIGHT, but this is what IS. Why, then, do they bitch about the part where they can finally begin doing things that MATTER, like accumulating massive quantities of filthy lucre?

That is your opinion, though it makes me wonder why you even bother playing any cRPG at all? You dislike all the in-between and rush through it all to get to the end because that is what you think that matters. Why bother playing any game that has a progression system? By your logic, only the end matters and no development system will appeal to you because they always have a beginning and an ending goal. Seems like adventure and action games without development systems are more in line with how you like to play games?

For me, I want to "play a game" and as it concerns a cRPG, the progression of development is the point. It the the struggle to the end that is more important for me. As I mentioned, the end in MMOs are nothing more than pointless wastes of time that contain no progression. All of the advancement in endgame is often completely invalidated at the very start of new content release. I always saw endgame as a gimmick for those who miss the point of gaming and so must be given pointless carrots to chase waiting on new content. /shrug

 

[Norfleet]

Gaming the game using outside elements is not gaming at all, it is simply cheating. The entire point of a game is to be held to the rules of such and finding ways within the rules to beat it. Circumventing the rules is just disregarding the rules.

Who said anything about outside elements or circumventing rules? I think we have an unclarity of terms: To "play" the game is merely to naively bumble through it. To GAME the game is to understand the mechanics of the game: How to directly use the rules for your own ends, rather than simply naively consuming content in a spoon-fed manner.

That is your opinion, though it makes me wonder why you even bother playing any cRPG at all? You dislike all the in-between and rush through it all to get to the end because that is what you think that matters.

Who said anything about that? I'm saying I dislike the typical MMO progression where nothing you did matters, and those who are not at max level are essentially persona non grata. You see this a lot in MMO content: "You must be X tall to ride", period. There is no place for anyone who is not max level. You can't do anything of worth, you don't contribute to any meaningful system.

For me, I want to "play a game" and as it concerns a cRPG, the progression of development is the point. It the the struggle to the end that is more important for me. As I mentioned, the end in MMOs are nothing more than pointless wastes of time that contain no progression. All of the advancement in endgame is often completely invalidated at the very start of new content release.

On this point we sort of agree, although perhaps for different reasons. You seem to see character development as the thing you value, whereas I am more concerned with how one acts upon the world and those in it. To you, the fact that the character development is often rushed turns and that the stuff you acquire becomes worthless in the next expansion as a bad, and to an extent I agree with the latter, but to me, what I care about is the fact there is no role for you in the world: You can't participate in most anything that MATTERS, such as, say, PvP, either in the form of directly slaughtering your opposition, or taking their money from them by selling them stuff in the auction house.

 

[Xenich]

Who said anything about outside elements or circumventing rules? I think we have an unclarity of terms: To "play" the game is merely to naively bumble through it. To GAME the game is to understand the mechanics of the game: How to directly use the rules for your own ends, rather than simply naively consuming content in a spoon-fed manner.

I am using the definition as it pertains to proper context. A "Game" is a "contest played according to a set of rules", to "play" a game is to do such according to that context. The rules are the constraints to which the player operates within that game. That is what a game is and that is what I am speaking of as it pertains to circumventing the game through external means (ie paying money to bypass game mechanics and rules). Every other point you make is irrelevant to that simple fact.

Who said anything about that? I'm saying I dislike the typical MMO progression where nothing you did matters, and those who are not at max level are essentially persona non grata. You see this a lot in MMO content: "You must be X tall to ride", period. There is no place for anyone who is not max level. You can't do anything of worth, you don't contribute to any meaningful system.

For a PvPer, sure... It seems your argument centers around that? Outside of a PvP argument, it doesn't make sense. The progression based system of most games these days don't work well with PvP. I think for PvP games, quick easy progression to max in little time with permadeath would be ideal. Also, I think your perception of the games is a bit skewed by the theme park games. They often won't let you do something even if it were possible. Older systems like EQ didn't place such training wheels on people. I remember having one guild laugh at mine claiming we had no chance of doing Terror in Plane of Fear because of our numbers/gear/levels. Yeah, we destroyed him.

On this point we sort of agree, although perhaps for different reasons. You seem to see character development as the thing you value, whereas I am more concerned with how one acts upon the world and those in it. To you, the fact that the character development is often rushed turns and that the stuff you acquire becomes worthless in the next expansion as a bad, and to an extent I agree with the latter, but to me, what I care about is the fact there is no role for you in the world: You can't participate in most anything that MATTERS, such as, say, PvP, either in the form of directly slaughtering your opposition, or taking their money from them by selling them stuff in the auction house.

If I want PvP, I go play an FPS, or in the old days a Permadeath MUD. PvP sucks in most games these days and is hardly what I would say what "matters". I guess I am more interested in playing a game than having some social attention (ie needing a role). I could care less about all that crap. What I like is progression based content that is extremely difficult and requires me to learn and apply unique solutions to the content that is before me. The rules are the challenge of play and are what make a game a game.

Now some people don't subscribe to the idea of playing a game as they see games as the generic meaning of "entertainment" and expect them to cater specifically to the idea of "fun and entertaining" outside of the definition of a game. I have no interest in those types and their arguments, I think them to be the reason for the decline.