The Denuvo DRM Thread

[Ninja Destroyer]

But you wouldn't download a car, would you???

 

[Osvir]

It probably hurts independant studios more than it hurts AAA studios <- ....... that's such a retard-obvious sentence (duh)

Kids will be kids, kids don't have money, and parents aren't growing money on trees. Teenagers will continue to pirate, probably (the ones that invest time and energy into it to learn about it), and then grow up, start a job, and most of the little pirates will disappear and become law abiding consumers.

this guy gets it.

I did my fair share of pirating when I was younger (PS1 and PS2). There was even an age when you could go into a game store, write down the CD-keys from the boxes and then pirate a copy online. It was easy, accessible in a weird way, yet a pretty obvious way for kids. "There's candy on that shelf and you can reach it and take it. Nobody will know if you take it but you aren't allowed to take it". Well, other person that actually bought the box and the CD-key would notice when trying to log in (WarCraft III for instance, which I have bought like 3 times long afterward ).

I haven't pirated games in a "very long" time, and Netflix pretty much nullified any illegal streaming for me as well. I guess I'm just a lazy bastard? And so are, obviously, a lot of others in our population? (Because Netflix and HBO are both successes?) as well as Steam, GoG, Origin. We take Online Streams for granted, even though we're actually stealing straight out of the pockets of the owners. I bet they're probably looking on through their computer screens, through their Big Data seeing your algorithms and shaking their fists because their not allowed to do anything... maybe slip in an elusive virus that's hard to track for a computer noob who'll sooner or later call all his or her friends & family about his or her computer acting weird.

I feel good about not pirating anymore, I feel my computer feels better from it as well. And I feel kinda bad about how I acted and my excuse is poor "I was kid to teenager and it was accessible". Lol, actually probably up until I was an adult to be honest, about 23-24 years old I stopped pirating games. 4-5 years ago (Massive piracy around 18-19, then it diminished slowly and progressively). Stopped streaming online movies last year (Started going to the cinema instead, as well as Netflix). I don't have any regrets, mainly because I don't want to live with regrets, maybe it was a necessary experience in my life, a learning one. Doesn't justify that I did it though, or that my parents allowed or enabled it (Microchip into the PS2, get a bundle of DVD's, start downloading/burning). I could talk with my parents about it too "I'm downloading and burning games!" openly. They were probably glad on one hand (they didn't have to pay for it), but on the other hand they didn't discipline me for shit. Growing up with internet was like having a virtual candyland.

Still working on finding some sort of Manga channel that has a monthly subscription though.

Talking about Piracy makes me want to talk about the Internet, about Accessibility and Entertainment as a whole, not just Video Games. Heck, about Parenting, about better Education in school and about better Internet Discipline measures. About how Digital Software gets pirated all the time, Movies, Music, Applications, Games, Pictures, Books, Education, Security Software, etc. etc. it makes me think it is a bigger issue than just Games.

TL;DR: No remorse as a pirate kid, or as a pirate teenager, and I was at my pirate peak around 18-19, then I started working and the Kid Pirate became a hardworking man. Feel a bit bad about my theft, but can't do much about the past unless time machines are invented this generation (which they probably aren't seeing as I'm still an ex-Pirate), and will instead just buy the stuff I want today *shrug* to everyone that pirates today, maybe you too will grow up one day and understand the value of hard work. I don't judge you, how can I? I did the same *shudders* ... maybe even worse o.o

However, if you have a job and are working and you get a decent salary to live off and pay all your rents, bills, food, and can afford a game, then I have to ask: Why are you still pirating?

 

[Daedalos]

It probably hurts independant studios more than it hurts AAA studios <- ....... that's such a retard-obvious sentence (duh)

Kids will be kids, kids don't have money, and parents aren't growing money on trees. Teenagers will continue to pirate, probably (the ones that invest time and energy into it to learn about it), and then grow up, start a job, and most of the little pirates will disappear and become law abiding consumers.

this guy gets it.

(...)Why are you still pirating?

Because I don't like paying for something that should be free. If some faggot overcharges me for some shit product he's trying to sell me, I won't buy it, I might pirate it just to see how shit it actually is, but it doesn't change the fact, that I would never buy it.

I don't waste money. I only spend it on valueable and things of worth. Everybody should do the same.

 

[Mustawd]

Because I don't like paying for something that should be free.

Lol.

 

[Jaedar]

If I couldn't pirate TV shows and Movies I'd probably pay for them. It's likely the reason why I pay for a Netflix subscription.

Right, because stuff on Netflix can't be pirated?

You pay for Netflix to appease your conscience or because it is more convenient.

 

[Mustawd]

If I couldn't pirate TV shows and Movies I'd probably pay for them. It's likely the reason why I pay for a Netflix subscription.

Right, because stuff on Netflix can't be pirated?

You pay for Netflix to appease your conscience or because it is more convenient.

Exactly.

 

[Osvir]

Gotcha. I don't see a problem with testing out a game before purchasing it, or put it back on the shelf and look for something else if it's not interesting/you don't like it. That's common sense.

But if there's Trailers, Gameplay Footage, Screenshots, Reviews, Forums, User Feedback, you can get a pretty good idea if the game is something you want, or if it's something you could do without. Today there's usually tons of coverage on each product. For free! You used to have to get less of that coverage from Game Magazines and also pay for it.

So, basically, you have the option to look at the videos, look at the gameplay, screenshots, even a first impression reviewer or a let's player, read reviews, go to forums and get a general idea "What do the fans think of it, those that really like it?" or other forums "What do other forums say about this game?". You might even make an inquiry, a new thread "Is this game any good?". If it is something that interests you, you can secure the purchase by gathering enough information. Granted that it is something you are drawn to and are interested in purchasing.

In other words, you'll be able to figure out with about 90% certainity whether you will like a game or not before you even play it, based on your previous gaming preferences or even your gaming mood (Horror game, FPS, RPG, Driving, Strategy, etc. what are you looking for? What do you want to play?).

Steam allows for refunds by the way. It's a terrible refund system that needs a lot of work, but it's in the early stages and like most things it will probably evolve. In other words, "I'm pirating to try the game out" excuse is only becoming thinner and thinner Intinium, as now you can purchase a game*, play for an hour and when you don't like it, refund it.

Also, before I forget... the "Whoops! I finished this shitty game I pirated... was only going to try it out!" has never been a good excuse. Even less good of an excuse if you are employed with salary.

* This is what I'm personally iffy about in their Refund plans, you should get "Game timer" instead of having to pay for it (If you play for more than 2 hours, Steam seems to mean that "You like it enough that you'd buy it", meaning that you might play a game for 2 hours and 10 minutes, by mistake or accident, then you'd be forced to pay for it). Or maybe it is "Refund within 2 days"? I don't quite recall, I haven't used it.

The "Game Time" could instead function as a "Lock". You could get between 1 hour and 30 minutes up to 2 hours to play the game. When the Game Time is over, the game will Quit, and you get an Question "Did you like the game?", with "Yes" and "No" options.

If "Yes" you'd be taken to the Cart, and could proceed to checkout. If "No", you'd return to the Main Store Page. Simple enough, and "Pirate to test" would fly no more.

 

[vonAchdorf]

The last game I pirated was Doom (1) shortly after its release.

But I don't think that piracy is detrimental to the market as a whole. It can be in some individual cases, of course.

 

[racofer]

This thread now:

 

[sullynathan]

Some people never get it.

If you make a quality product, people will automatically buy it, because it's so fucking great, you can't help yourself.

Meanwhile, if you make a fucking shit product, why should you be entitled to get money from it? Share it, free.

People that pirate your shit, wouldn't buy it anyway, if pirating was not possible, so you practically don't lose anything.

You can't lose money on something that was worth nothing to begin with.

Meh I'd still pirate it if it's a "quality game", after all I pirated underrail and age of decadence.

 

[sullynathan]

Me too

 

[Mustawd]

 

[Daedalos]

Some people never get it.

If you make a quality product, people will automatically buy it, because it's so fucking great, you can't help yourself.

Meanwhile, if you make a fucking shit product, why should you be entitled to get money from it? Share it, free.

People that pirate your shit, wouldn't buy it anyway, if pirating was not possible, so you practically don't lose anything.

You can't lose money on something that was worth nothing to begin with.

Meh I'd still pirate it if it's a "quality game", after all I pirated underrail and age of decadence.

Then I hope you get aids and cancer in your dick

 

[mondblut]

You pay for Netflix to appease your conscience or because it is more convenient.

Ditto with games.

 

[Roguey]

It's predictable yet unfortunate how this became yet another "is piracy immoral or amoral" thread.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I assume the budget issues are just built into the premise - i.e. there's no such thing as 'uncrackable', but rather 'uncrackable for the amount of resources that people are willing to throw at it'.

That was always going to be the battle-line: whether on-disk don't-make-the-customer-lose-their-shit (i.e. encryption-based, not based on withholding product like 'always-online') DRM can be developed for cost that is more affordable to the developers/publishers than the cost of cracking it is to the pirates.

Can't say I'm too fussed about losing the ability to pirate. I might have been a few years back, but I can live with Steam type services as convenience+updates-in-return-for-DRM.

My only concern is that the current situation, with Steam and long support time-frames as disincentives for piracy, only arose because they had to compete against piracy. Then again, the state of the popular music industry should be evidence of what happens if piracy runs too rampant. There's no question that less money in the system has led to a reduction in quality within the readily available, chart-topping products. No reason to think gaming/music are any different to other products - making cars also involves a degree of artistic/aesthetic design. Reduce the amount of money in the industry, you're going to reduce the quality.

And that might be fair enough; again, I think we've probably got more convenient download services as a result of publishers competing against piracy. I also think it probably resulted in less hardcore crpgs and strategy games during the decline, because lower profits mean more conservative financiers/publishers. It's like a vicious cycle - people pirate because the industry churns out soulless shit and you're happy to see them burn, but then the good stuff gets pirated as much as the bad, and is hurt far worse because it had lower profit margins to begin with, so you get an even greater proportion of soulless crap.

I'd hate for kickstarter to become even more reinforced as the necessary funding model for good games - it's a terrible model for consumers, with all the worst facets of pre-ordering, and it shifts the risk entirely away from the developer onto the consumer. I back good games on kickstarter due to lack of alternatives, but it really is shit, and it's much better if developers get paid from people buying their products after release, which piracy works directly against.

And yeah, no need to go into all that 'not every pirated copy is a lost sale' - I know that, I'm taking it for granted. It still means, overall, less $$$ going into gaming. Some of that is good - it means there's less reward for dodgy practices like putting all the quality into the opening section, not providing playable demos and bribing reviewers. But seeing that people are just as likely to pirate games by small developers who make good products, provide free demos and inform their audience about what to expect, I'm not going to be butthurt about piracy getting more difficult.

 

[Major Malfunction]

Paying for anything is for retards, but in some cases stealing and kidnapping are less immoral acts than piracy. Shoplifting for food is a victimless crime -- all leftover food gets incinerated and that alone costs the store money. Some people have way more shit than they know what to do with, so having some of it stolen is basically a free lesson -- can even be eye-opening -- and if we're talking high-tier theft the property is insured anyway, while low-tier theft is basically like stealing someone's trash. Stealing people's children away in the night is acceptable if the parents are brutes or retards. In short, Mustawd is a dumbfuck. Piracy and theft is good for society because a society with prevalent theft and piracy is obviously shit anyway.

 

[Daedalos]

I like the irony of a guy with "Mr. Manners" as his profile avatar telling others to steal and commit crimes

 

[J_C]

Paying for anything is for retards, but in some cases stealing and kidnapping are less immoral acts than piracy. Shoplifting for food is a victimless crime -- all leftover food gets incinerated and that alone costs the store money. Some people have way more shit than they know what to do with, so having some of it stolen is basically a free lesson -- can even be eye-opening -- and if we're talking high-tier theft the property is insured anyway, while low-tier theft is basically like stealing someone's trash. Stealing people's children away in the night is acceptable if the parents are brutes or retards. In short, Mustawd is a dumbfuck. Piracy and theft is good for society because a society with prevalent theft and piracy is obviously shit anyway.

:mrpresident:

 

[epeli]

The best thing that could possibly happen for Underrail sales is to give 50% of everyone who owns a PC a free copy. Would become a classic instantly and we'd be bitching about how much they've declined by pandering to the masses 10 years from now.

Styg , any thoughts on this? I personally think this is bullshit. Also, Charles-cgr even went as far as going on the pirate bay and posting that he is an indie developer and to please stop pirating his games. I know because I tried pirating his game a few years ago. Never ended up doing it. So I bought it instead.

Styg's not stupid enough to fight windmills, FYI. He's a realist. What Damned Registrations said is obvious hyperbole, but the truth is that getting more exposure is the best thing that can happen to niche indie games, be it Underrail or other hidden gems.

 

[JarlFrank]

Meh, I've only started actually buying games recently because steam sales are incredibly cheap, but I still tend to pirate more than buy. For me, pirating means I really own the game, without it being bound to my steam account, and I can keep it on my external HDD in my games archive forever. That's why I generally prefer GoG over steam, as you actually have installers you can put into your collection that are not bound to an account.

Piracy is completely fine. It doesn't hurt devs at all. A pal of mine has never bought a single game in his life, he's a prolific pirate who pirates everything, and if a game can't be pirated he'll just skip it. But because he plays so many games he tends to give recommendations to his friends, who sometimes buy a game based on his recommendation. Therefore, his piracy actually adds to the company's profit, rather than detract from it.

 

[Alex]

I do believe that piracy is a kind of theft. I understand the by possession, we are talking about the right and authority to use something. Theft therefore is not to be understood as the privation of something from his rightful owner, but rather as the infringement of the owner's authority without his knowledge. Thus, it is still a theft to take something without permission even if it is replaced before the owner could notice, although this would be far less bad than simply stealing.

Still, as long as pirating goes against the rightful authority of whatever company to control the copies of their games, I do believe it to be theft. I do think that the authority these big companies hold over games might be exaggerated, however. In particular, I believe the current laws for public domain take too long to go into effect. But this isn't enough grounds to deny their rights to their own products.

 

[Major Malfunction]

I like the irony of a guy with "Mr. Manners" as his profile avatar telling others to steal and commit crimes

I think it's more ironic to complain about piracy and petty theft as being immoral and damaging to society when our entire society is built like a giant theft-pyramid. Banks squander their enormous assets and get bailed out by the general population, governments are corrupt institutions that operate on the wealth generated by plebs with the primary goal of keeping their clique in power indefinitely but -- oh -- society she is so precious, so moral -- we must protect her from the enormous damage caused by KIDS who are WEAKENING SALE POTENTIAL. It's bullshit. We've already entered the Twilight Zone with people directly funding developers to make games, so the previous-gen argument of "Pirazy will keel the Gaems Industry" has been debunked; meanwhile, profits effectively "killed" the games industry twice over already, at one point the industry and at our current junction the games themselves. Moral of the story? If you subscribe to a moral interpretation of theft and property, you're already living in an immoral society, which limits your c&c potential: either get with the program, change floppy or try uninstalling the program, preferably via suicide vest. If theft is made an acceptable part of the daily life of common denominators, then property by its nature has to be redefined which would be bad news for major shareholders, and with our rapid digitization of assets the digital sphere is the perfect place to start -- i.e supporting piracy is a moral fight.

 

[Lone Wolf]

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Most of us are adults with jobs. Piracy should no longer be a thing, for people in our situation.

I live just outside of Melbourne's Central Business District. When the wife and I go out for brunch, it's $50AUD down the drain. Every time. It's $30AUD (just for the tickets) if we want to go and see a movie. For Australians newly released Steam games sit at around $40-90AUD. It's no longer even a question; I'll buy every time. Why not? My wife justifies $25 a week on Starbucks/hipster coffee joints. I buy games every couple of months.

Obviously, there are mitigating circumstances. Teenagers, third worldians and people on a tight budget get a pass, as far as I'm concerned. But if you're in a position to purchase something - instead of stealing it - do it. Reward the people who spend themselves making this shit we argue over endlessly.

 

[Major Malfunction]

Reward the pretty bird with a cage.