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From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,272
Not really the case. You can just turn on the higher difficulty covenant and it forces respawn of everything forever. Or use the bonfire ascetics to respawn stuff. It's completely trivial to farm absurd amounts of souls very quickly with ascetics.
Not relevant for the majority of players. Covenants are just as poorly communicated as in the first game and I can't imagine many players will randomly join that covenant. You only start to get bonfire ascetics towards the end of the game, and I never used them anyway.

Not a valid argument. You might as well say that life gems are balanced if players don't know they can buy them. Which was the case for me my first entire playthrough (along with not knowing how to upgrade my equipment for the first third of the game).

In my experience, thrusting swords are the only truly great pure DEX weapons, but they also have the massive downside of being unable stagger enemies worth a damn (unless you use the Stone Ring I suppose). Everything else has mediocre damage (base + scaling) which drops too heavily with infusions to be worth it. I was frequently exhausting my entire stamina bar with my scimitar to kill individual mobs, without always staggering them. By contrast, I watched somebody steamroll the entire game's content with a quality build using the Mace, Grand Lance and a Great Club, and he was able to twoshot essentially every mob in the game all the way through the DLC while also having the benefits I mentioned (stagger, better damage types, attacks that hit multiple enemies). I accept that it may be a different story with bosses, but the game's difficulty seems more centered around the level encounters anyway.
Were you two-handing weapons and using the stone ring? You stagger basically everything staggerable even with a simple dagger. It's hilarious. At most you need two hits for the bigger enemies (not including the ones that are just unstaggerable).

Also your analysis is totally backwards -- flat damage reduction hurts lower damage numbers much more than higher damage numbers, in that adding e.g. 100 attack to 300 attack effectively doubles your damage against an enemy with 200 protections (numbers drawn out of thin air, but you get my point). A scaling in DEX frequently means just over half of the added attack value of A scaling in STR (45% vs 80%), which amounts to much less damage overall due to flat damage reduction. The fact that split magic damage isn't godawful in this way due to being percentage based is actually a major mechanical improvement, if you ask me. Maybe I just wasn't minmaxing flat bonuses enough, even though I was constantly applying variants of Magic Weapon (I only ever found up to Ring of Blades +1 and I was most of the way through the game before I found Flynn's Ring).

I think you're missing the point, which is that physical damage reduction in DS2 caps at around 100-200ish (guessing, but basically it starts relevant at early levels and never increases much). So at early levels when your dagger does 250 and heavy weapon does 400, it matters a lot. At higher levels where your buffed +10 dagger does 800 and your +10 heavy weapon 1100, the dagger is way, way better for DPS. Of course a great hammer or w/e also has better arc but the simple dagger isn't the only dex weapon.

Sorceries and all spells in general are complete shit for DS2, don't even try to get through the DLC areas with them.
Fake news, sorceries are just terrible in the Ivory King. My Great Soul Arrow twoshot (unbuffed) mobs in Iron King and did respectable damage in the Sunken King, for which judicious use of spells was invaluable.

Nah mate, it's trash.

Here's some quick damage tests.

RCtBezJ.jpg

Total shit soul spear.
y0Y3q8j.jpg

Also crap great resonant soul. Yes it had the exact same damage as the soul spear.
zeJKs4O.jpg

Not awful large club. Completely fails to stagger though.
qDlxGDX.jpg

Kool katana
K5Muh6Z.jpg

Rockin' rapier

All weapons are +10 magic (except chime which is obviously dark), flynn ring/ring of blades/old leo ring/sorcery clutch ring equipped. Stats are 50/50 str/dex and 70/70 int/faith. This is bonfire intensity 1 and an absurdly overleveled caster build can't effectively kill these guys, unless you count "spend 2 minutes backpeddling while casting a dozen soul arrows or dark orbs" as a good way to play (not a smart plan when you have to deal with groups either). Meanwhile melee takes about 4-8 swings.

Also, just to be clear, there are plenty of good STR weapons. They are good because they are the fast attacking, lower base damage STR weapons, performing essentially the same as their good DEX weapon counterparts (both stagger equally well and the damage type becomes quickly irrelevant due to fucked up DS2 damage/armor equations). DS2 has so many weapon choices that the lines get really blurry on the distinction between STR and DEX "builds", which is something I'm not really fond of.
 
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RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
750
Someone seriously argued that instead tracking is a good thing?
Yes, because I value nondegenerate gameplay against enemies that can actually pose a threat to players who mindlessly circlestrafe over having slightly more believable animations. I understand you probably just watched Matthewmatosis' video and took it as gospel, but this is the direction of the series as a whole because it simply leads to better combat, the only difference is that the later games have better animation blending.

Not really the case. You can just turn on the higher difficulty covenant and it forces respawn of everything forever. Or use the bonfire ascetics to respawn stuff. It's completely trivial to farm absurd amounts of souls very quickly with ascetics.
Not relevant for the majority of players. Covenants are just as poorly communicated as in the first game and I can't imagine many players will randomly join that covenant. You only start to get bonfire ascetics towards the end of the game, and I never used them anyway.

Not a valid argument. You might as well say that life gems are balanced if players don't know they can buy them. Which was the case for me my first entire playthrough (along with not knowing how to upgrade my equipment for the first third of the game).
These are not analogous situations. If only a small fraction of players used lifegems, then I would concur that they don't strongly influence the design for most players, but not that they're completely fine as-is (i.e. how badly does the game's difficulty suffer for people who do spam lifegems?). Souls will be functionally finite for most players, so that is one of the effects of despawning. The abusability of systems by more knowledgable players should be considered, but it is also important to consider what the effect will be on average players. My argument is, that for most players, losing souls actually feels like a loss where it quickly became a non-issue in DS1. That's my experience, and I'm extrapolating what I believe to be the design intent and effect for players at large. The existence of tools to respawn enemies doesn't change this in my view (and moreover, the fact is that DS2's level curve is fairly forgiving as you point out, so this is not something that most players will likely turn to). Further, the Covenant of Champions and Bonfire Ascetics both increase difficulty, somewhat counteracting the incentive to grind, so I believe my point stands.

In my experience, thrusting swords are the only truly great pure DEX weapons, but they also have the massive downside of being unable stagger enemies worth a damn (unless you use the Stone Ring I suppose). Everything else has mediocre damage (base + scaling) which drops too heavily with infusions to be worth it. I was frequently exhausting my entire stamina bar with my scimitar to kill individual mobs, without always staggering them. By contrast, I watched somebody steamroll the entire game's content with a quality build using the Mace, Grand Lance and a Great Club, and he was able to twoshot essentially every mob in the game all the way through the DLC while also having the benefits I mentioned (stagger, better damage types, attacks that hit multiple enemies). I accept that it may be a different story with bosses, but the game's difficulty seems more centered around the level encounters anyway.
Were you two-handing weapons and using the stone ring? You stagger basically everything staggerable even with a simple dagger. It's hilarious. At most you need two hits for the bigger enemies (not including the ones that are just unstaggerable).
No, because I got that ring late into the game and wasn't frequently experimenting. I now recognize that certain on-hit effects make fast attacking weapons quite potent, but as per my previous arguments, this wasn't relevant to most of my playthrough. Frankly the ring itself sounds busted.

Also your analysis is totally backwards -- flat damage reduction hurts lower damage numbers much more than higher damage numbers, in that adding e.g. 100 attack to 300 attack effectively doubles your damage against an enemy with 200 protections (numbers drawn out of thin air, but you get my point). A scaling in DEX frequently means just over half of the added attack value of A scaling in STR (45% vs 80%), which amounts to much less damage overall due to flat damage reduction. The fact that split magic damage isn't godawful in this way due to being percentage based is actually a major mechanical improvement, if you ask me. Maybe I just wasn't minmaxing flat bonuses enough, even though I was constantly applying variants of Magic Weapon (I only ever found up to Ring of Blades +1 and I was most of the way through the game before I found Flynn's Ring).

I think you're missing the point. Physical damage reduction in DS2 caps at around 100-200ish. So at early levels when your dagger does 250 and heavy weapon does 400, it matters a lot. At higher levels where your buffed dagger does 1000 and your heavy weapon 1150, the dagger is way, way better for DPS. Of course a great hammer or w/e also has better arc but the simple dagger isn't the only dex weapon.
This is true, though I don't think this really starts to matter until the DLC when you can have a character buffed out with all manner of rings and potent infusions.

Sorceries and all spells in general are complete shit for DS2, don't even try to get through the DLC areas with them.
Fake news, sorceries are just terrible in the Ivory King. My Great Soul Arrow twoshot (unbuffed) mobs in Iron King and did respectable damage in the Sunken King, for which judicious use of spells was invaluable.

Nah mate, it's trash.

Here's some quick damage tests.

[snip]

All weapons are +10 magic (except chime which is obviously dark), flynn ring/ring of blades/old leo ring/sorcery clutch ring equipped. Stats are 50/50 str/dex and 70/70 int/faith. This is bonfire intensity 1 and an absurdly overleveled caster build can't effectively kill these guys, unless you count "spend 2 minutes backpeddling while casting a dozen soul arrows or dark orbs" as a good way to play (not a smart plan when you have to deal with groups either). Meanwhile melee takes about 4-8 swings.
Yes, the DLC enemies are rather resistant to magic. These guys in particular. Still, 3 shots on the normal mobs (I misremembered as 2 shots) isn't useless. And before the DLC, magic can be stupidly potent.

I did some testing of my own, and I discovered that it's mostly just Rapier counter damage that's broken. Makes a difference of about 230 damage on those same enemies with Ring of Blades +1, Flynn's Ring, Cystal Magic Weapon, and Sorcery Clutch Ring with a magic-infused Ice rapier, and the period to get it is super lenient (I found it hard to NOT get counter damage). With Old Leo Ring it's even more ridiculous. This is indeed a problem, but did not characterize the majority of my experience with the game (and it didn't help much with the Ivory King DLC in particular anyway). Is the ceiling for DEX builds in DS2 probably higher for the reasons you mentioned? Yes, but I don't know if that would lead me to the conclusion that DEX is better overall. For the majority of the game it can struggle against PvE content, at least if you're a schmuck using curved swords like I was. Maybe there are similar clunker STR weapon classes, I wouldn't know. As a final point, I don't know if it makes much sense to claim that magic builds suck and DEX weapons are OP when your magic infusion and Crystal Magic Weapon are partly responsible for putting your damage numbers into the stratosphere. Pure casters may fall off (though having more spell casts may help), but you just made the point that the game floods you with levels to hybridize! That's where the kind of melee bonuses we're talking about come in, I'd think. By contrast, I'd I imagine that a STR focused character could rely on better innate damage and utility and dedicate ring slots to other useful effects like stamina regeneration and better defense without losing much in PvE. There are other factors at play than raw DPS, even if I concede your point about the endgame potential. It took me a long time to get there, and for most of the game I found myself rather gimped by my low STR and mediocre weapon selection since I prioritized sorceries after bringing DEX to the first soft cap. Maybe my opinion will change in subsequent playthroughs, who knows.
 
Joined
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Messages
15,272
Souls will be functionally finite for most players, so that is one of the effects of despawning. The abusability of systems by more knowledgable players should be considered, but it is also important to consider what the effect will be on average players. My argument is, that for most players, losing souls actually feels like a loss where it quickly became a non-issue in DS1. That's my experience, and I'm extrapolating what I believe to be the design intent and effect for players at large. The existence of tools to respawn enemies doesn't change this in my view (and moreover, the fact is that DS2's level curve is fairly forgiving as you point out, so this is not something that most players will likely turn to). Further, the Covenant of Champions and Bonfire Ascetics both increase difficulty, somewhat counteracting the incentive to grind, so I believe my point stands.

Unless you actually farmed every area until it was devoid of enemies, souls were no more finite in DS2 than DS1. The covenant is just a fallback in the absolute worst case for someone who really, really wants a specific piece of equipment only dropped by a single enemy type in a single area, it wasn't really a thing you did for souls in general. Difficulty increasing isn't really relevant, anywhere you are going to farm is an area that is fairly easy to complete (if nothing because you've already cleared it out several times), and bonfire ascetics ensure you get way, way more souls than anything else that is on bonfire intensity 1. See DS2 speedruns that farm The Rotten to get well above level 100 incredibly quickly.

No, because I got that ring late into the game and wasn't frequently experimenting. I now recognize that certain on-hit effects make fast attacking weapons quite potent, but as per my previous arguments, this wasn't relevant to most of my playthrough. Frankly the ring itself sounds busted.

It's a drop from the Ogre you can fight in the very first area of the game. If we're going by "the average player" still, I'd assume that on average most people get that ring almost immediately, put it on one of their 4 open ring slots, and take advantage of its busted-ness for a good portion of the game. Only obtaining it in the late game is quite an outlier.

It is kind of busted but it's also the DS2 poise mechanics that are busted. Even without Stone Ring most light weapons will stagger very heavy armor while being two-handed, and poise doesn't regenerate so even if not immediately staggered then two hits will stagger you. I don't know what went through Fromsoft's head, but they seem to think that poise in DS1 was OP, that armor should be useless, and that only hyperarmor properties of certain weapon animations should allow you to shrug off hits. DS3 then takes this to the extreme where poise literally doesn't even exist except as hyperarmor.

This is true, though I don't think this really starts to matter until the DLC when you can have a character buffed out with all manner of rings and potent infusions.

Not terribly impactful. Leo ring and normal Ring of Blades are in the first two areas of the game. Pine Resin is a fine subsitute for magic vs. bosses, and even normal magic weapon doesn't lose out on much vs. crystal magic weapon (intelligence only matters for duration so low int is still acceptable since magic weapon has so many more casts). As soon as you can get one of the elemental infusions you're pretty much good to go. The soft caps and all are quite lenient really. When you first enter Drangleic you should be probably 75% of those maximum damage numbers.

Yes, the DLC enemies are rather resistant to magic. These guys in particular. Still, 3 shots on the normal mobs (I misremembered as 2 shots) isn't useless. And before the DLC, magic can be stupidly potent.

Not entirely useless... but still not really effective. In DS1 you could play a pure archer or pure mage build quite effectively, not being able to do so in DS2 and always being forced to kill at least half the enemies with some manner of melee is enough for me to call them not a viable build. Granted magic was far, far too powerful in DS1, but there should be some kind of happy median between being able to kill every boss in 1 shot vs. needing 50 spells to kill a boss.

I did some testing of my own, and I discovered that it's mostly just Rapier counter damage that's broken. Makes a difference of about 230 damage on those same enemies with Ring of Blades +1, Flynn's Ring, Cystal Magic Weapon, and Sorcery Clutch Ring with a magic-infused Ice rapier, and the period to get it is super lenient (I found it hard to NOT get counter damage). With Old Leo Ring it's even more ridiculous. This is indeed a problem, but did not characterize the majority of my experience with the game (and it didn't help much with the Ivory King DLC in particular anyway). Is the ceiling for DEX builds in DS2 probably higher for the reasons you mentioned? Yes, but I don't know if that would lead me to the conclusion that DEX is better overall. For the majority of the game it can struggle against PvE content, at least if you're a schmuck using curved swords like I was. Maybe there are similar clunker STR weapon classes, I wouldn't know. As a final point, I don't know if it makes much sense to claim that magic builds suck and DEX weapons are OP when your magic infusion and Crystal Magic Weapon are partly responsible for putting your damage numbers into the stratosphere. Pure casters may fall off (though having more spell casts may help), but you just made the point that the game floods you with levels to hybridize! That's where the kind of melee bonuses we're talking about come in, I'd think. By contrast, I'd I imagine that a STR focused character could rely on better innate damage and utility and dedicate ring slots to other useful effects like stamina regeneration and better defense without losing much in PvE. There are other factors at play than raw DPS, even if I concede your point about the endgame potential. It took me a long time to get there, and for most of the game I found myself rather gimped by my low STR and mediocre weapon selection since I prioritized sorceries after bringing DEX to the first soft cap. Maybe my opinion will change in subsequent playthroughs, who knows.

Well, Katana still out-DPSs the large club easily and should do so past the early game. I'd expect Curved Swords do similar but haven't tested. And again, there's definitely STR weapons around the same level. Maces are great.

Also FYI sorcery clutch ring is basically useless, it was only for show really. Ring of Blades + Flynn's Ring + Leo's is all you need. The selection of other good rings is pretty low. There's Stone Ring and... Cloranthy is pretty weak, the rings that give +5% HP are kind of laughable. The physical defense rings are completely useless due to how DS2 does damage. The Elemental rings are decent if you min-max a specific elemental resist. Unfortunately DEX builds are basically the only ones with good rings.

Yes, the game floods you with levels. That's a bad thing because it diminishes build variety. It's basically a cop-out to balance, the devs didn't need to ensure that the final 1/3rd of the game was balanced between the various playstyles because they just throw enough levels at you that everyone can do everything by that point.
 

sullynathan

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Yes, because I value nondegenerate gameplay against enemies that can actually pose a threat to players who mindlessly circlestrafe over having slightly more believable animations. I understand you probably just watched Matthewmatosis' video and took it as gospel, but this is the direction of the series as a whole because it simply leads to better combat, the only difference is that the later games have better animation blending.
No, I was too busy playing dark souls 2 and complaining about it in this thread. When people use this strawman, do they think dark souls 2 gets criticized because of matt?
 

Wunderbar

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Messages
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For PvE: Bosses are basically impossible to stagger, at least anywhere near the degree of bosses in DS1. There are scripted "stagger moments" when bosses reach certain thresholds but those are unrelated to actual poise damage. If you want to stagger something the best weapons to do it with are quick DEX weapons w/ stone ring since it adds a flat 30 poise damage per hit which is just lols.

For PvP: Your poise doesn't regenerate which is just fucked up, and a two handed dagger can stagger almost anything (I think literally anything, even the heaviest armor available, if you use stone ring).
stone ring weights a fuckton which makes it hard to use when playing as a light rolling character.

Just pulling numbers out of my ass here, but in DS1 you finish the game around level 75 while in DS2 you finish the game around level 150. If you spend any amount of time farming in DS2 (which is ridiculously profitable and easy to do) you can push that to level 200-225. That's a massive difference in # of points and character versatility.
i've finished DaS1 around SL 90, and DaS2 around SL 110 (both without dlcs), not a very stark difference. Especially considering that there were only 8 attributes in DaS1 (but really 7, since Resistance sucks) and 9 in DaS2.
 

Wunderbar

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Messages
8,825
RoSoDude any thoughts on overhauled durability mechanic? Unlike in DaS1 and DaS3, weapons (and surprisingly, rings) are very fragile, and it forces you to carry a backup weapon and a repair powder. I thought it's a great addition, durability in DaS1 and 3 is so lame it might as well not exist.
 
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I never got the issue with tracking in patched SotFS but apparently vanilla DS2 was a lot, lot worse about enemies tracking after already committing on their attacks, ignoring stamina to do multiple attack chains, and having generally weird hitboxes.

stone ring weights a fuckton which makes it hard to use when playing as a light rolling character.

There's no fastroll breakpoints and the ring is only 1.5. Don't really get the complaint. Remember that heavy armor is basically useless. Also lots of weapons (like 2Hed estocs) still stagger normal enemies just fine w/o stone ring, the point is that stone ring allows even the weakest, dumbest, most pathetic weapons that should never stagger anything to stagger things that are heavily armored and in DS1 would require the largest weapons to stagger.

http://darksouls2.wikidot.com/poise

Note that a 1H weapon that says it does 10 poise damage requires 95 poise to shrug off a single 2H R1. Which makes... zero fucking sense. Compare to the poise damage DS1 weapons do.

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/poise

Also if you look at the various tables, basically everything's 2H R2 auto-staggers everything staggerable unless its in hyper armor.

Unrelated but I just read that Stone Ring even improves the poise damage of spells too, oddly enough. Maybe trying to stun lock a line of enemies with soul spears works?

Just pulling numbers out of my ass here, but in DS1 you finish the game around level 75 while in DS2 you finish the game around level 150. If you spend any amount of time farming in DS2 (which is ridiculously profitable and easy to do) you can push that to level 200-225. That's a massive difference in # of points and character versatility.
i've finished DaS1 around SL 90, and DaS2 around SL 110 (both without dlcs), not a very stark difference. Especially considering that there were only 8 attributes in DaS1 (but really 7, since Resistance sucks) and 9 in DaS2.[/QUOTE]

That sounds like the high end of DS1 and low end of DS2. Especially considering no DLC for DS1, and that DS2 expects you to be around level 100 to enter drangleic.

RoSoDude any thoughts on overhauled durability mechanic? Unlike in DaS1 and DaS3, weapons (and surprisingly, rings) are very fragile, and it forces you to carry a backup weapon and a repair powder. I thought it's a great addition, durability in DaS1 and 3 is so lame it might as well not exist.
It's a good idea but repair powder is so cheap that its mostly just an annoyance. Either you're paying attention to that microscopic durability bar that 99.9% of the time doesn't matter in order to repair your equipment before it breaks for basically no cost, or you have to walk back to a bonfire in order to... still repair your equipment for a fairly low cost.
 
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Wunderbar

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I never got the issue with tracking in patched SotFS but apparently vanilla DS2 was a lot, lot worse about enemies tracking after already committing on their attacks, ignoring stamina to do multiple attack chains, and having generally weird hitboxes.
played both vanilla and softs, tbh i haven't noticed any drastic differences (except for huge knights in Dragon shrine).

stone ring weights a fuckton which makes it hard to use when playing as a light rolling character.
There's no fastroll breakpoints and the ring is only 1.5.
oh, i got it mixed up with a ring of giants (which improves player's poise). My bad.

i've finished DaS1 around SL 90, and DaS2 around SL 110 (both without dlcs), not a very stark difference. Especially considering that there were only 8 attributes in DaS1 (but really 7, since Resistance sucks) and 9 in DaS2.
That sounds like the high end of DS1 and low end of DS2. Especially considering no DLC for DS1, and that DS2 expects you to be around level 100 to enter drangleic.
probably have something to do with my experience, since DaS1 was my first souls game and my playtime was more than 100 hours, while DaS2 took me only 60 hours to clear.
Anyway, DaS2 has more attributes so spend your souls on, so i don't think higher level is an issue.

RoSoDude any thoughts on overhauled durability mechanic? Unlike in DaS1 and DaS3, weapons (and surprisingly, rings) are very fragile, and it forces you to carry a backup weapon and a repair powder. I thought it's a great addition, durability in DaS1 and 3 is so lame it might as well not exist.
It's a good idea but repair powder is so cheap that its mostly just an annoyance. Either you're paying attention to that microscopic durability bar that 99.9% of the time doesn't matter in order to repair your equipment before it breaks for basically no cost, or you have to walk back to a bonfire in order to... still repair your equipment for a fairly low cost.
early on repair powder is both limited (iirc you can buy it infinitely only after getting to Drangleic castle) and expensive (2500 souls is not a joke). And backtracking to bonfire is basically same as dying, since it respawns enemies and you had to fight them again (which will damage your weapon).
 
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early on repair powder is both limited (iirc you can buy it infinitely only after getting to Drangleic castle) and expensive (2500 souls is not a joke). And backtracking to bonfire is basically same as dying, since it respawns enemies and you had to fight them again (which will damage your weapon).

Yeah but there's like 1 area where you might need to use repair powder pre-Drangleic due to stuff that could diminish your durability. Unless you were playing at 60 FPS on the original PC DS2 version and suffered from the double durability loss bug. 2500 souls is pretty much a joke by Drangleic for something you might use 2 or 3 times throughout the whole game.
 

Wunderbar

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Yeah but there's like 1 area where you might need to use repair powder pre-Drangleic due to stuff that could diminish your durability. Unless you were playing at 60 FPS on the original PC DS2 version and suffered from the double durability loss bug.
I actually liked double durability loss and thought it was intended. Made exploration of locations with small amount of bonfires (like No man's wharf) much tenser.

Instead of patching it out they should've introduced it for 30 fps peasants too! :positive:
 

RoSoDude

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Messages
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Unless you actually farmed every area until it was devoid of enemies, souls were no more finite in DS2 than DS1. The covenant is just a fallback in the absolute worst case for someone who really, really wants a specific piece of equipment only dropped by a single enemy type in a single area, it wasn't really a thing you did for souls in general. Difficulty increasing isn't really relevant, anywhere you are going to farm is an area that is fairly easy to complete (if nothing because you've already cleared it out several times), and bonfire ascetics ensure you get way, way more souls than anything else that is on bonfire intensity 1. See DS2 speedruns that farm The Rotten to get well above level 100 incredibly quickly.
I should reiterate -- my argument isn't about how many souls there actually are, but the effect on player psychology. I found the game did a lot more to encourage me to want to avoid death and also try to retrieve my souls, whereas I had started to completely ignore my bloodstain after a certain point in DS1. I personally felt the game did a good job towing the line between making it feel like souls were finite but still ensuring that players would be a good level just by playing the game normally. I believe many of the changes were intentional to instill this feeling of tension, but your mileage may vary.

It's a drop from the Ogre you can fight in the very first area of the game. If we're going by "the average player" still, I'd assume that on average most people get that ring almost immediately, put it on one of their 4 open ring slots, and take advantage of its busted-ness for a good portion of the game. Only obtaining it in the late game is quite an outlier.
You can't actually be serious with this. The ogre is tucked out of the way in a hidden path behind some bushes in the area before the player has even done character creation. I would bet that at least 25% of players never even found the ogre, and many of those who did got rekt by it and left. I only went back to check for it because I was told about it, and it still took me a minute of looking around to notice the path. Moreover, the Stone Ring won't make much of a difference in the early game since everything has such low poise, so it's not necessarily something that players will know to keep in one of their slots. Then you get players like me who... honestly just spam the A button when they pick things up and often don't even check what they get. There are so many things stopping it from being part of the average player's build that I'd be frankly shocked if it were used by a majority of players.

RoSoDude any thoughts on overhauled durability mechanic? Unlike in DaS1 and DaS3, weapons (and surprisingly, rings) are very fragile, and it forces you to carry a backup weapon and a repair powder. I thought it's a great addition, durability in DaS1 and 3 is so lame it might as well not exist.
I'm glad you asked, I forgot to put it in my post. I think the durability system was decidedly better in DS2. If I had to describe DS1's durability system I'd have to say it's an "atmospheric" system at best, meaning it's unlikely to contribute to gameplay other than by potentially making the player uncomfortable at some point. It'll only come into play if you don't buy the repairbox or simply ignore repairing your gear for the pittance of souls it costs at the bonfire out of laziness or due to repeatedly dying and never having souls to take care of it. I personally didn't buy the repairbox in DS1 at first because I thought it would be a one-time use thing, and I still got by with infrequent visits to Andre for repairs and reinforcements. I'm sure some unlucky sap has gotten stuck all the way down in Blighttown with only a broken +5 weapon to his name and felt completely hopeless, and that kind of situation is arguably the only purpose of the system in DS1. In DS2 it helps balance out different weapons (oh hey, lighter DEX weapons break faster huh) and also inform the player as to whether they're strong enough for certain content, or if they should turn back and try to get some more levels or weapon upgrades. I played SotFS where the durability rate was fixed, but it was still fast enough to make me worry about my weapons breaking and try to mix up my weapon use a bit earlier on, such as in No Man's Wharf. I only used Repair Powder a few times in the Ivory King DLC, so I can't comment on how well it's doled out.
 
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You can't actually be serious with this. The ogre is tucked out of the way in a hidden path behind some bushes in the area before the player has even done character creation. I would bet that at least 25% of players never even found the ogre, and many of those who did got rekt by it and left. I only went back to check for it because I was told about it, and it still took me a minute of looking around to notice the path. Moreover, the Stone Ring won't make much of a difference in the early game since everything has such low poise, so it's not necessarily something that players will know to keep in one of their slots. Then you get players like me who... honestly just spam the A button when they pick things up and often don't even check what they get. There are so many things stopping it from being part of the average player's build that I'd be frankly shocked if it were used by a majority of players.

You're kidding, right? This is Dark Souls, you're supposed to be paying attention for things like this. I ran up and died trying to punch the ogre before getting to character creation (along with dying after punching those dog-like things, which causes them to mob and kill you). I'd expect most DS1 vets to find it. If you aren't even looking at what you get then what are you doing with the game? In terms of Dark Souls secrets that provide very valuable items this isn't really high on the totem pole.

I'm not criticizing you for not finding it, but it's a normal item behind a moderate challenge on a slightly hard to find path early in the game. That describes the majority of rings and other unique items in the game. I didn't find a guy who upgraded weapons till after Drangleic but I'm not going to pretend that normal gameplay involves finishing Drangleic with unupgraded weapons nor say that upgraded weapons should be excluded from balance concerns.
 
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RoSoDude

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You can't actually be serious with this. The ogre is tucked out of the way in a hidden path behind some bushes in the area before the player has even done character creation. I would bet that at least 25% of players never even found the ogre, and many of those who did got rekt by it and left. I only went back to check for it because I was told about it, and it still took me a minute of looking around to notice the path. Moreover, the Stone Ring won't make much of a difference in the early game since everything has such low poise, so it's not necessarily something that players will know to keep in one of their slots. Then you get players like me who... honestly just spam the A button when they pick things up and often don't even check what they get. There are so many things stopping it from being part of the average player's build that I'd be frankly shocked if it were used by a majority of players.

You're kidding, right? This is Dark Souls, you're supposed to be paying attention for things like this. I ran up and died trying to punch the ogre before getting to character creation (along with dying after punching those dog-like things, which causes them to mob and kill you). I'd expect most DS1 vets to find it. If you aren't even looking at what you get then what are you doing with the game? In terms of Dark Souls secrets that provide very valuable items this isn't really high on the totem pole.
90% of the time when I pick up an item, it's some weapon or armor set I'm never going to use, or in DS2, some consumable I'm going to forget exists. I usually just check over what I have every so often to compare stats rather than opening up my inventory to read the description of every new item I pick up. Playing that way just sounds super tedious, and I frankly have more fun figuring out how to get to items than I almost ever get from the actual reward. As for finding secrets, I accidentally stumbled onto the Darkwood Grain Ring in DS1 without any guides, so it's not like I never find this stuff. I just tend to assume that most players aren't reliably finding everything, especially stuff hidden away before the game starts proper. Not everyone starting the game is a Souls veteran, yaknow? And not everyone who is will be blindly attacking a huge aggressive enemy before they've even chosen their class. That's kind of the point with putting a tough enemy so early -- they're actually banking on most players not finding it, because dying to an enemy like that before getting to really start the game would cause some not insignificant fraction of players to quit outright. I doubt they would have put such a potent ring there if they thought people would be rushing to claim it either. It's there to reward people who do poke around and overcome a tough challenge, which is something Dark Souls has to actively train many players to do. Just because you're playing the game "the right way" doesn't mean you're not an outlier.

EDIT IN RESPONSE TO NINJA EDIT: I didn't say it should be exempt from balance concerns, I said it seemed busted. That said, it wasn't relevant to my personal experience using a DEX build for the majority of the game (I got it probably halfway through getting the four Great Souls), and I wouldn't criticize the balance of DEX builds on the basis of one ring but would instead... criticize that particular ring. Hybrid magic infusions and Flynn's ring are still endgame considerations.
 
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Arnust

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RoSoDude I *would* say you're supposed to play the DLC in release order. Ivory has a lot of problems for certain, but it's undoubtedly the climax of its trilogy when Sunker and Iron don't exactly end in the greatest note, as good as they are. Also nice write-up. Didn't get to power stance? The special moves you get from doing so with curved swords are pretty swell and there's an alternate one if you're using the Warped Sword. PS with rapiers is also interesting in that you get way slower but super punishing pokes. Lategame stats and maxed rapiers plus a Leo Ring have you do actual thousands of points of damage on a counter (which is nice this game turned into an actual mechanic rather than an arbitrary as fuck hidden system that only affected piercing damage for some reason).
 

RoSoDude

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RoSoDude I *would* say you're supposed to play the DLC in release order. Ivory has a lot of problems for certain, but it's undoubtedly the climax of its trilogy when Sunker and Iron don't exactly end in the greatest note, as good as they are. Also nice write-up. Didn't get to power stance? The special moves you get from doing so with curved swords are pretty swell and there's an alternate one if you're using the Warped Sword. PS with rapiers is also interesting in that you get way slower but super punishing pokes. Lategame stats and maxed rapiers plus a Leo Ring have you do actual thousands of points of damage on a counter (which is nice this game turned into an actual mechanic rather than an arbitrary as fuck hidden system that only affected piercing damage for some reason).
I did Ivory King first because I remembered where it was, and Iron King last because I'd heard Fume Knight was supposed to be the hardest boss (funny how the Old Iron King boss took me 3 tries while Fume Knight took me 2). You might be right that I should have done them in release order, if only because I'd have had the broken-ass Flynn's Ring to cheese through the Ivory King instead of the 6 hour parry gauntlet I went through instead. TBH I kinda wish Flynn's didn't exist (as it didn't for 90% of my run); being able to stack +50 AR with Ring of Blades is just nuts.

I only briefly tried power stancing because I only had 10 STR for nearly the whole game, and also because my left hand became occupied with my sorcery staff + parrying dagger, while my right hand was occupied with my curved sword + rapier. I'll definitely be checking it out more on future playthroughs, or maybe a NG+ run on my last character. I almost swapped to LH Rapier and RH Curved Sword, but I missed the fast startup on the parrying dagger too much.
 

Lyric Suite

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BTW, what are the min/maxed classes in Dark Souls 2?

Turns out if i had picked Cleric instead of Knight, i'd have ended up with two more skill points for the same SL. It's not major but my OCD is kicking in already.
 
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BTW, what are the min/maxed classes in Dark Souls 2?

You can be more relaxed about stat investment in DS2 as it has an item that allows you to respec. You find few of those per playthrough. Also, first stat you wanna pump is Adaptability until you have at least 100 AGL. I even get 105 AGL ASAP. Usually done with that by the time I'm finished with first area, if I also get summoned a bunch of times. And I usually do, it's a good area for co-op.
 

Lyric Suite

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Interesting. How many respecs you get?

Still, what i mean is that some classes seem to have more points total. The Cleric doesn't end up with two points more than the Knight because it has better stat distribution, it seems to have flat out more stat points, which i don't get. Once you know this, why bother start with the Knight at all?
 
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Interesting. How many respecs you get?

Still, what i mean is that some classes seem to have more points total. The Cleric doesn't end up with two points more than the Knight because it has better stat distribution, it seems to have flat out more stat points, which i don't get. Once you know this, why bother start with the Knight at all?

I'm not sure exactly but it should be at least 5 Souls Vessels per run. Deprived should be the best one for min/maxing, which is what I took for a warrior/mage combo I'm slowly building currently. Since matchmaking in DS2 is not based on SL but rather on Soul Memory I never really got autistic about best stat point distribution.

I would advice to definitely join Bell Keepers covenant for farming upgrade materials. First encountered in Lost Bastille, need Pharos Lockstone to access it. Even if you suck at PvP you should get at least some wins out of it, sometimes you'll get a "win" right after invading because some other Bell Keeper will beat you to killing the host. About a week ago, I got 10 Titanite Chunks just a little over an hour after first joining the covenant. There seems to be about as much action there as ever. Ocasionally you can even get Slabs and Twinkling Titanite there, also Petrified Dragon Bones which are rarest materials in game.

Also if you want a good starting weapon - Fire Longsword you can pick up in Forest of Fallen Giants can easily get you through early to mid game, and is also a great PvP weapon. I tend to to upgrade that one to +10 on every run first, without even investing any more stats than are needed to wield it. Two handed moveset I especially like.
 
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praetor

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Interesting. How many respecs you get?

Still, what i mean is that some classes seem to have more points total. The Cleric doesn't end up with two points more than the Knight because it has better stat distribution, it seems to have flat out more stat points, which i don't get. Once you know this, why bother start with the Knight at all?

depends what you want to do... look for the one that has the least starting investment in the stats you don't want (yeah i know, thank you captain obvious :))

if you wanna minmax pure physical, the knight and bandit have the least points in the magical attributes, so look for which one has the least points in the dex/str/vit stat that you don't wanna touch. if you wanna go pure (or near enough) sorcery, go sorcerer. if you wanna go a bit hybrid, you'll have to do a bit of decidin' and calculatin', if you truly wanna minax

that said, i'd recommend to pick the class that appeals to you do most and fuck minmaxing on your first playthrough, 'cause it's not worth it. just level up as far as it goes, ignore minmaxing, ignore Soul Memory, ignore the SL meta and make a hybrid who will be able to utilise as much gear as possible, so that you have a decent idea of all of your options for your focused, minmaxed characters 'cause DaS2 has the most varied and viable builds with all kinds of shit, so it's better to be familiar before committing...
 

Lyric Suite

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Deprived should be the best one for min/maxing

Google says it's among the worse. Bandit however is among the best, and cleric if you want faith specifically.

I'm still not sure why some classes get more total stat points and what the logic was to be honest.
 

The_Mask

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I'm still not sure why some classes get more total stat points and what the logic was to be honest.
It's called playing an RPG.

Also... classes don't matter much. Unless you specifically go for certain things, the best stat investment would be 20 across the board. And it takes little time to get there.
 

Lyric Suite

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I'm still not sure why some classes get more total stat points and what the logic was to be honest.
It's called playing an RPG.

It has nothing to do with that. I always understood starting classes as just being there to get a jump start in a particular direction the player wanted, i had no idea some of them were objectively superior to others by virtue of having a greater number of total stat points for same soul level. Starting differences are irrelevant i don't see how the fact the knight starts as slightly higher level than the cleric justifies being slightly weaker at the meta level, or any level really. Yeah it's a small difference but i'm not getting the "rationale" here. Say you plan on doing a lot of pvp those two extra points the cleric gets would certainly be helpful and i don't see how anyone who picked knight has to be "doomed" to having a slightly weaker character when that outcome wasn't clear from the get go to begin with.
 

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