From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Silverfish]

X and Y worked just fine. People just didn't want to adapt to new mechanics.

 

[Black Angel]

No, it fucking doesn't.

 

[Blaine]

X and Y worked just fine. People just didn't want to adapt to new mechanics.

There's nothing to adapt to. ADP is a simple points dump, one that turns what should be an entirely player skill-based action (not unlike its cousin, parrying) into a skill/stat hybrid.

It can be argued that those who are very skilled at timing rolls could save the points they would otherwise have paid into ADP to bring i-frames back up to DS1 levels, and spend them elsewhere. In reality, though, virtually no one is that infallible in practice. 99 out of 100 will dump into ADP.

Once the points are dumped, in DS2 you can enjoy fast roll i-frames at 69.9% load rather than 24.9%; and you actually end up with far more attribute points to spend by the end of DS2 compared to DS1, so for all intents and purposes, you receive those points for "free."

In DS1, when hollowed, you lost a few benefits and could even miss content and rewards, but invasions were prevented. Thus, players had breathing room to work through a level again under the same circumstances but without being constantly invaded, while being encouraged to un-hollow as soon as feasible.

In DS2, you lose max health and then can continue to be invaded. This makes no sense; losing progress and souls accumulated is more than enough punishment and incentive to improve. Yet DS2's ass-backwards hollowing penalties can be bought off into non-issues by mid-game.

There is only one type of person who could possibly approve of such mechanics: The type who likes to grind up points and items until a game becomes trivial.

You are that type of person. Hell, you even listed grabbing a powerful ember early as a big reason why you like Demon Ruins.

 

[fork]

Sorry to say, but Silverfish holds the prestigious position here.

 

[Blaine]

I'm not saying that there are no positives to the ADP stat. The problem is that, as implemented, its negatives outweigh its positives.

A much better approach would have been to leave i-frames alone but allow ADP to play a part in determining roll distance and stamina regen (rather than these being solely a function of equip load), while unlocking enhanced acrobatic maneuvers at various break points: a sidestep at 15, a backflip at 30, and ninja flips a la the dark wood grain ring at 40. These are only illustrative examples.

This would be a superior approach for two reasons: 1.) basic maneuvers would still be good, not pre-nerfed pending a points dump; and 2.) it would definitely allow for more "acrobatic-feeling" characters, all without being a near-mandatory points dump.

 

[Blaine]

Another aspect of DS2's ass-backwards approach to hollowing (which was clearly meant to enable invasions, and absurdly makes struggling players even weaker targets thanks to the health reduction) is "soul memory," which allows twinks who know exactly what they're doing and who haven't wasted one soul to match up with average players who have, very understandably, died a bunch of times, spent souls on excessive arrows and consumables, etc. Their characters will perforce be that much weaker.

As far as I'm aware, soul memory is the sole factor in matchmaking, though the ranges can be different depending upon the activity in question. I'm actually all for ganking and the hilarity and butthurt it can create, but creating a lazy system that tends to feed especially weak targets (missing health from hollowing, wasted souls in soul memory) to dedicated builds is a questionable design decision at best.

 

[Silverfish]

No, it fucking doesn't.

It really does. If you can get over how different it is from its predecessors in some respects, most of DS2's mechanics work pretty well in tandem.

There's nothing to adapt to. ADP is a simple points dump, one that turns what should be an entirely player skill-based action (not unlike its cousin, parrying)

Parrying should also have some kind of stat interplay, but you're not ready for that conversation.

There is only one type of person who could possibly approve of such mechanics: The type who likes to grind up points and items until a game becomes trivial.

You are that type of person. Hell, you even listed grabbing a powerful ember early as a big reason why you like Demon Ruins.

I do like to get good items early and tear through previously challenging content, yes. It's almost like that's a big part of the appeal of replaying this kind of game. It's like getting mad at people who put buckets over characters' heads in Skyrim so they can steal their shit unabated.

Another aspect of DS2's ass-backwards approach to hollowing (which was clearly meant to enable invasions, and absurdly makes struggling players even weaker targets thanks to the health reduction) is "soul memory," which allows twinks who know exactly what they're doing and who haven't wasted one soul to match up with average players who have, very understandably, died a bunch of times, spent souls on excessive arrows and consumables, etc. Their characters will perforce be that much weaker.

As far as I'm aware, soul memory is the sole factor in matchmaking, though the ranges can be different depending upon the activity in question. I'm actually all for ganking and the hilarity and butthurt it can create, but creating a lazy system that tends to feed especially weak targets (missing health from hollowing, wasted souls in soul memory) to dedicated builds is a questionable design decision at best.

It was an absurd oversight on B-Team's part that new players weren't allowed to simply play offline until they were ready for pvp.

 

[Wunderbar]

Shitting on hollowing, soul memory and ADP? It's like 2014 all over again.

Next thing you'll tell me is that transition from Earthen peak to Iron keep makes zero sense.

 

[curds]

Ds1 would be a better game if hollowing cost some of your hp. As it is, there's really not many reasons to use your humanities. Reversing hollowing basically boils down to opting into multiplayer.

It really makes complete sense that there should be some penalty to being a fucking walking corpse rather than a human.

 

[Silverfish]

Shitting on hollowing, soul memory and ADP? It's like 2014 all over again.

Next thing you'll tell me is that transition from Earthen peak to Iron keep makes zero sense.

An invader killed me with dual mundane Avelyns. Game is fundamentally broken.

 

[The_Mask]

I disagree with pretty much everything you're saying there, Silverfish. If you're going to make a stat for player input in different circumstances, then why not just go all the way and make the game a classic TB JRPG experience on each combat sequence?

You're eliminating player input. Basically taking the "action" out of the ARPG.

I mean, I can understand your "position" when you're blatantly wrong comparing a "Capra Demon at lvl 15 + 2 dogs = Artorias in a coliseum" because everyone feels its cramped the first time they go 1v1 vs Artorias, but now you're trying to change the type of RPG this RPG is.




What?

 

[Wunderbar]

If you're going to make a stat for player input in different circumstances, then why not just go all the way and make the game a classic TB JRPG experience on each combat sequence?

if stats barely matter other than giving slight bonuses to HP and damage, then why not just go all the way and make the game an action/slasher?

By further simplifying stat system you are eliminating an element of player's long-term decision making. Basically taking the "rpg" out of the ARPG.

 

[The_Mask]

if stats barely matter

Fallacy. Stats do matter. Do me a favour and go beat every boss with Iron Skins and RTSR. You'll even roll through Smough's buttslam that way.

Or are you trolling me, and just typing for the sake of typing?

 

[Wunderbar]

if stats barely matter

Fallacy. Stats do matter. Do me a favour and go beat every boss with Iron Skins and RTSR. You'll even roll through Smough's buttslam that way.

they used to matter, but with each new game From made them less and less important. ADP was a misstep, but a misstep in the right direction.

BTW Iron skin (iron flesh?) and RTSR are equippable items that you find, not stats.

 

[The_Mask]

they used to matter

Yeah, this is why I told people to either fuck off to a DS 2 thread, or admit Dark Souls 1 is superior.

BTW Iron skin (iron flesh?) and RTSR are equippable items that you find, not stats.

So you're taking out every single item/spell that you can equip and changes stats from an RPG, because it can be equipped and can change stats.

... who are you?

 

[Wunderbar]

they used to matter

Yeah, this is why I told people to either fuck off to a DS 2 thread, or admit Dark Souls 1 is superior.

are you seriously saying that DaS1's attribute system is superior to DaS2's one? Because that's not true.
DaS1 had END governing both stamina bar and encumbrance, and it also had a shitty useless RES stat.

BTW Iron skin (iron flesh?) and RTSR are equippable items that you find, not stats.

So you're taking out every single item/spell that you can equip and changes stats from an RPG, because it can be equipped and can change stats.

The original dispute was about ADP and character's main stats. I said "stats barely matter", and instead of refuting my words by describing how stats work, you mention utility items. Yes, some of utility items are powerful, so what?

I'm not saying that Dark Souls is a shitty action game where stats don't matter, i'm arguing that making main stats more important is a good thing.

 

[The_Mask]

are you seriously saying that DaS1's attribute system is superior to DaS2's one?

Yes.

I said "stats barely matter", and instead of refuting my words by describing how stats work

I got owned a few hundred pages back when I took seriously a person just like you saying the exact same thing, and got made fun of for taking in-depth mechanical debates about Dark Souls seriously post 2020, so ever since, I kinda refuse to "describe how stats work". Either you've played enough Dark Souls to know, and you know they do OR you're trolling, in which case I don't really need to answer.

i'm arguing that making main stats more important is a good thing.

I said that adding stats for player-based input is looking down on your player. I dislike Dark Souls 2 for its many, many features inspired by the edgy kids out there, but making a stat that helps a player with their reflexes is:
1. insecurity as far as a designer goes
2. 1 step towards eliminating the action out of the game, and if such a decision is made, just go all the way. Eliminate it all. Make the game TB. No reflexes/mechanical agency from the player needed in a TB game.

 

[Silverfish]

I disagree with pretty much everything you're saying there, Silverfish.

No hard feelings, bro. This thread would be gay if we were all just sitting around agreeing with each other.

You're eliminating player input. Basically taking the "action" out of the ARPG.

You can have a mesh between player input and stat integration. DS2 is, conveniently, a good example.

I mean, I can understand your "position" when you're blatantly wrong comparing a "Capra Demon at lvl 15 + 2 dogs = Artorias in a coliseum"

Again, I didn't say they were equal. I said Capra was better.

 

[Black Angel]

It really does. If you can get over how different it is from its predecessors in some respects, most of DS2's mechanics work pretty well in tandem.

Which is why Dark Souls 2 would've been more acceptable as a game of its own, instead of bearing the name of its predecessor.

But we can't really do that, can we? They've decided that *this* is a sequel to Dark Souls 1, a game that achieved so much, albeit in the shadow of Demon's Souls. You can't judge each of its aspects in a vacuum. What's the point of making it a sequel to another game, if we ought to 'get over how different it is'? I might came across as asking for more of the same here, but what's so difficult about asking them to at least stay true to the spirit of its predecessor?

Sorry to say, but Silverfish holds the prestigious position here.

Reducing Artorias into merely a dollar store Capra Demon is a prestigious position here?

How the Codex have fallen.

Ds1 would be a better game if hollowing cost some of your hp. As it is, there's really not many reasons to use your humanities. Reversing hollowing basically boils down to opting into multiplayer.

But that still doesn't really justify opening up hollows for invasion, though? Besides, in DaS1, you can't kindle bonfires unless you're a human.

It really makes complete sense that there should be some penalty to being a fucking walking corpse rather than a human.

https://darksouls.wiki.fextralife.com/Crestfallen+Warrior

When talking to him while hollowed:
"Oh, your face! You're practically Hollow.
But who knows, going Hollow could solve quite a bit!
Hah hah hah hah…
Hm, what? Restoring your humanity?
Well, there are a few ways to go about it…
Collect it bit by bit from corpses, or you can butter up a cleric, and get yourself summoned.
And the quickest way, although I'd never do it, is to kill a healthy Undead, and pillage its humanity.
Coveting thy neighbour is only human, after all!
Hah hah hah hah…
What are you looking at?
Don't try anything clever. You might regret it."

Tell me; would a fucking walking corpse possess humanities (in context of Dark Souls 2, human effigies)? And the corpses that Crestfallen referred to are truly dead, fixed corpses that can be found across the world.

I know Dark Souls 2 changed the goal of invasions, but I think Dark Souls 1's approach are far superior (perfect marriage between narrative and gameplay).

are you seriously saying that DaS1's attribute system is superior to DaS2's one? Because that's not true.
DaS1 had END governing both stamina bar and encumbrance, and it also had a shitty useless RES stat.

The very existence of ADP, or at least the way it's executed, balances everything out, as per reasons stated already in the last few pages.

I'm not saying that Dark Souls is a shitty action game where stats don't matter, i'm arguing that making main stats more important is a good thing.

If that's what you think, then what's the difference between the approach to ADP and the approach to DaS1's Endurance?

Both are exactly the same; one stat that does practically everything, that it's just no-brainer to invest into it. Except, what DaS2 did in terms of actual implementation is far worst; like MauLer explained in his videos, which stat would you go for:

1. A bunch of HP increases? Or
2. A bunch of damage increases? Or
3. A bunch of defense increases? Or
4. A whopping significant increases in i-frames, that allows you to bypass damages altogether and more easily, therefore eliminating the need to increase your HP and defenses at all, and at the same time allows you to better position and time yourself to deal damage, *AND* increases the speed at which you use consumables, therefore reducing the risks from using consumables in the middle of combat with merely a generous amount of souls, if not practically eliminates said risks

So now, on top of poorly communicating this to the players, they made it so that one of the absolute paramount and most important stat compared to *literally* everything else in the game, is now tied with a single stat, it just means these choices are a no-brainer, and in fact way more obvious than compared to DaS1's Endurance.

You're eliminating player input. Basically taking the "action" out of the ARPG.

You can have a mesh between player input and stat integration. DS2 is, conveniently, a good example.

 

[curds]

Tell me; would a fucking walking corpse possess humanities (in context of Dark Souls 2, human effigies)? And the corpses that Crestfallen referred to are truly dead, fixed corpses that can be found across the world.

I know Dark Souls 2 changed the goal of invasions, but I think Dark Souls 1's approach are far superior (perfect marriage between narrative and gameplay).

I think either you missed my point or I missed yours because I don't understand your reply to me.

Edit: Nevermind, I got you.

You're saying it doesn't make sense that we invade hollowed players in DS2 to gather humanity, lore-wise, right? I agree with that. My original statement had nothing to do with invading so I'm still slightly confused. It's been a long day at work though, so that might be on me.

 

[curds]

But that still doesn't really justify opening up hollows for invasion, though? Besides, in DaS1, you can't kindle bonfires unless you're a human.

Just saw this part. Yeah, I don't think hollows should be able to get invaded. Never said that.

As for kindling, yeah, that's true. Pretty minor incentive to go human, though. You don't really need to kindle all that often. I only kindled like twice in my first playthrough. And kindled bonfires remain kindled even after you go hollow again.

So my point remains the same: HP penalty when hollow is a cool mechanic and makes sense. I think Demon's Souls did it better than DS2, though.

 

[Black Angel]

But Kindling is a pretty big deal, because it deals with the amount of Estus you can carry at any given time. The base for unkindled bonfire is 5 Estus; a bonfire with a Firekeeper is kindled by default; and from the start, you can only kindle once, at any bonfire, to ensure you have 10 Estus as you go. To kindle past 10 Estus, however, you need the Rite of Kindling, meaning you need to beat Pinwheel; not exactly a hard boss, but challenging for new players all the same.

As for kindling, yeah, that's true. Pretty minor incentive to go human, though. You don't really need to kindle all that often. I only kindled like twice in my first playthrough. And kindled bonfires remain kindled even after you go hollow again.

You may think this way, but to an average player, it's a huge incentive to hold more than 10 Estus as they go; the longer they go without finding a bonfire, the more they would want to have more Estus. And it also would be much better to have the nearest bonfire kindled, to ensure an abundant amount of Estus for when one is going on a prolonged journey or when fighting a boss might end up being a battle of attrition, instead of teleporting to a kindled bonfire every time you died.

My point here in the end is how they all relates to each other; a perfect marriage between narrative and gameplay, an experience that's way more than a sum of its parts.

 

[curds]

My point here in the end is how they all relates to each other; a perfect marriage between narrative and gameplay, an experience that's way more than a sum of its parts.

I don't mean to be rude but I still don't see what any of this has to do with me saying that there being a HP penalty when hollowed is a cool mechanic.

 

[Black Angel]

My point here in the end is how they all relates to each other; a perfect marriage between narrative and gameplay, an experience that's way more than a sum of its parts.

I don't mean to be rude but I still don't see what any of this has to do with me saying that there being a HP penalty when hollowed is a cool mechanic.

It's a cool mechanic (for you), but does it manage to do what its predecessor did? What's the point of imposing HP penalty, an increasing one at that, to hollowed players, AND still opening them up to invasions? Other than making the game more 'difficult', as the buzzword puts it? Is there any particular reason? An acceptable one? Is something in the Lore™ states that as an Undead dies every time, they lose their HP? There's a part that states an Undead loses themselves, but I don't think even the developers meant to conceive it in the form of losing more and more of your HP as you dies while not being a human, no?

 

[Silverfish]

You can't judge each of its aspects in a vacuum.

I already have, though.

What's the point of making it a sequel to another game, if we ought to 'get over how different it is'? I might came across as asking for more of the same here, but what's so difficult about asking them to at least stay true to the spirit of its predecessor?

Because that mentality is what gets you polished, but creatively bankrupt games like Dark Souls 3. A couple of years from now, when the honeymoon period is over, we'll be comfortable saying it's the same mentality that gets you games like Elden Ring.

Reducing Artorias into merely a dollar store Capra Demon is a prestigious position here?

Apparently. Miyazaki's been praised for doing so for a decade.

I said that DS2 is good example, not the only one. I've been following the thread long enough to pick up that reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, but still.

It's a cool mechanic (for you), but does it manage to do what its predecessor did?

It wasn't trying to. It'd be like saying "Michael Jordan has never scored a touchdown".

What's the point of imposing HP penalty, an increasing one at that, to hollowed players, AND still opening them up to invasions? Other than making the game more 'difficult', as the buzzword puts it?

No, difficulty and aggravating new players is the point, and there's nothing wrong with that. You adapt or play offline until you know what you're doing. It's not that big a deal.