From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[made]

Viel interessanter ist, dass man in deutschen Spielemagazinen den Leser offenbar immer noch siezt. Ich dachte, das wär schon schon lange aus der Mode.

 

[Morgoth]

Die Höflichkeitsform soll und wird nie aus der Mode kommen, mein Kamerad!

 

[potatojohn]

They were probably planning on releasing it on the PC from the start, and this was all just a very big and successful viral marketing campaign.

 

[Shannow]

Viel interessanter ist, dass man in deutschen Spielemagazinen den Leser offenbar immer noch siezt. Ich dachte, das wär schon schon lange aus der Mode.

Ein Soziologe, ein Physiker und ein Mathematiker fahren zusammen mit dem Zug von Deutschland nach Frankreich. Kaum hat der Zug die Grenze passiert sehen sie ein schwarzes Schaf von der Seite auf einem Feld.
Der Soziologe sagt:
"Seht, alle Schafe in Frankreich sind schwarz."
Der Physiker schmunzelt:
"Nun, zumindest ein Schaf in Frankreich ist schwarz."
Der Mathematiker blickt leicht verwirrt:
"Wieso? Eigentlich kann man nur sagen, dass die für uns sichtbare Seite des Schafes schwarz ist."

 

[VirtualSamadhi]

Hi,

I'm just posting to clear up some misconceptions.

First, there are CHECKPOINTS in this game, not SAVE POINTS. There is a difference! You can save and quit anywhere without enemies respawning.

However, if you die, you will be sent back to the previous checkpoint to repeat most, if not all, the area.

*GASP* You mean there are consequences for dying?

Well, literally, the consequence for dying is to repeat what you've already played.

SOLUTION: Don't die!

The game is extremely fair, and is balanced around these checkpoints, which allow you to level, repair equipment, and generally restore yourself (as well as Health potions).

You will have to make educated decisions about whether you want an area to respawn and have a full inventory of health potions, or leave the area barren of enemies, but go on without health, everytime you encounter one of these points!

Secondly, the game is balanced around these checkpoints, so you'll never feel you unfairly died.

Usually, there is a checkpoint at the beginning of the area, and a checkpoint before the boss. If an area is too large, there will be a checkpoint midway through the area, as well.

You may have to replay a few trash enemies, but not many, if you die.

If you do die midway through an area, you'll end up replaying the area to the boss. Sound fair?

IT IS.

Thirdly, I ended up replaying some parts of the game 15+ times. I beat the game at level 103, with almost a 100% completion level, solved every puzzle, didn't get some of the boss weapons due to the fact they only drop one soul, and you can only exchange for one item (usually out of two possible items). I am now in NG+, and showing no signs of stopping.

Even the parts of the game I was forced to replay multiple times I found interesting. Not once did it become boring, due to the number of strategies, environmental tactics, and so forth, I was required to try out. I tried a different approach every time, and results varied. I found the end result--finally beating a foe--VERY satisfying! The atmosphere, as well, is VERY compelling. I did not lose interest at all, even after 8 hours of replaying a couple zones that were difficult for me at low levels. The challenge never left, and I never felt compelled to put down the controller and quit.

WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT THIS? I find the misconception that these checkpoints are "save points" completely irritating, and the whining from your griefers completely irritating.

THIS IS THE TYPE OF GAME I HAVE NOT SEEN SINCE 1995. A "REAL" dungeon crawl! Complete with puzzles, exploration, secrets, and traps! It is challenging, but never remotely unfair. If you die before a boss, re-fight the boss! That is all. The area respawns, but you don't have to kill every NPC to get to him! The checkpoints are fairly placed, and the consequence is for dying, not for saving and quitting. There is a difference!

Also, I am going to say this game is not hand-holding at all. The plot is told through implications and symbols. VERY compelling! Very educated. And VERY artsy! It has class. And style! Unlike your usual Bethesda garbage.

Some of the puzzles you come across (and I like this very much!) are not obviously puzzles. And therefore, you can complete the game without doing them, completely miss them, and the only thing you will miss is a 100% completion rate. The same goes for Covenants. You can complete the game without joining one, but the pleasure is not only in completing a puzzle, but in realizing THERE EVEN IS A SECRET. It is not always evident! The end result is, the tale tells itself through implication, and what you put into this game is what you get out of it. The game left me with a warm glow, is my favorite game from the past 5+ years, and I hope and pray very much there is a sequel! I CANNOT RECOMMEND IT ENOUGH.

Though some people beat it in 3+ hours in a speedrun, I spent 8 months, and over 800+ hours exploring every nook and cranny of this game, discovering WHERE THERE WERE PUZZLES, optional of course, and solving ALL OF THEM, collecting every item in the game, and finding every side boss, side area, and puzzle I could. If you like Ultima Underworld, you will like this. Hell, if you like Silent Hill, you will even like this! The entire psychological effect of the game is that you feel smarter, more educated, just for playing it! And the artistry of the bosses is not to be missed. Not once did I see a generic elf, dwarf, or dragon! Everything was unique, and you are IN FOR A TREAT if you think you hate console games now!

I hope it will be a good port for you all.

And I hope the extra content is DLC, because I completely skipped Skyrim this year to play this, and I am on my second time through, without a single iota of boredom. The game is meant to be challenging, but never unfair, and if you THINK VERY CAREFULLY, and learn to use CREATIVE LOGIC as well as LATERAL THINKING the game becomes more compelling, interesting, and what you put into it is what you get out. A lot of the tactics are environmental, and there are a million ways to approach a single puzzle. Even backtracking is not trouble, as there are shortcut links between area, and the branching world never feels dull, or "disconnected."

I CANNOT WAIT.

Thanks,

ArcturusXIV,
The artist formerly known as,
Member since 1993.

 

[Phage]

Mother of God, I'm actually agreeing with an ArcturusXIV post.

 

[VirtualSamadhi]

Thanks,

And I also want to mention, Diablo had a "Save and Quit" feature, but nobody complained that it took away "freedom of choice" to be unable to reload to change a decision.

If you kill an NPC in Dark Souls, that's it, you've made your decision.

Saving, in general, has been used as an exploit by the PC gaming community for years.

Don't like a decision you made? Reload.

Died to a boss? Reload.

The more you save, the more open to exploiting a game's options you have, and the more you get to avoid "consequence." A desired aspect of "ROLEPLAYING" Games.

Thanks,

ArcturusXIV

 

[VirtualSamadhi]

Also, remember the show is only a show.

I have been here 9+ years, and the number of griefers and whiners here is aggravating.

Sometimes it is better to join the circus and just FUCK with people than to act serious, like my real self.

I create Drama for fun.

Right now, I am completely sober and serious.

This is a game I really like.

I have never played a game twice, most don't even get one playthrough.

This game made me cry twice.

I think out of frustration, but still...

Once, I remember whispering, "This game is harder than real life!"

Which I think says it all.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

In some games you can save mid-combat and always load when something goes wrong... So what, it's the PC, you can edit your game if you so desire in most cases. That has been argued to death around here anyway. It's not a problem, people get to do what they want to do. I don't see why you couldn't have ordinary saving on top of this game's checkpoint system. Onoes, some people are going to save right before the boss and scum him until he dies. Others can fiddle around going back and forth and thinking about when to die, or whatever it is this checkpoint system is supposed to add to the game. And again some will use straight cheats. Skip the boring parts in whatever way you can.

And really, what fucking consequences, it's a single player game with nothing at stake. There are no consequences.

 

[VirtualSamadhi]

Editing a game is out-and-out cheating.

But allowing people to reload tempts non-cheaters to do so.

In case you didn't pay attention, Demnogonis, there IS ordinary saving on top of this game's checkpoint system. The checkpoints are there to reload in case you die, and to refresh your estus flasks for healing.

NO CONSEQUENCES? WTF are you drinking. The point of an RPG is a branching plotline, where your choices matter. Meaning, reloading to explore alternate options defeats the point of MAKING choices, for those that care.

 

[VirtualSamadhi]

Also, it's not very strategic to face a boss and reload everytime you miss a hit, or the boss hits you. This game forces you to rethink your strategy and execute WITH PRECISION.

Having a reload option is a bit like having a "lean" option in Thief. Suddenly, sound becomes less important... Footsteps.

In other words, having to replay a section of the game, rather than just reloading every few seconds, or everytime you make a mistake lowers your possible game exploits by one..

And the temptation to cheat/exploit the game is not there. Which save-games have been for the PC community now for years. Saving and exploring a branching option because you didn't like your original consequence is a bit like peeping into the future, and defeats the point of having options with consequences in the first place. Didn't like a consequence? Reload.

Editing a save game file is an option that exists outside the game world, and if you do so, you're already a gimp who is trying to powergame your way through something that is supposed to be A CHALLENGE.

Exploring options means accepting consequences. You can change the way you play in NG+ if you want.

And the save system is completely fair. Any other save system would be an exploit.

Thanks,

A14

PS: In sad news, apparently From Software is not known for good PC ports. Pray!

 

[VirtualSamadhi]

There is only one person you are depriving if you choose not to play this game--YOURSELF.

You are missing the best game of the last 5+ years all because you don't like the save system. You prefer "broken saves" that allow you to exploit the game by peering into the future, and redoing mistakes. Choices and consequences...

I am not going to argue with stupid. You either buy it, or don't, but remember, the game is there, and it WILL save your state if you save and quit. The only punishment is for death. Or stupidity.

And most deaths in this game are completely fair, and caused by stupidity.

End subject.

PS: Going to mention again, the number of possible approaches to a problem are EXPONENTIAL! The game is really fun because of the high number of possibilities, and therefore mistakes, you can make. Most of the problems are environmental, there are a number of ways you can approach a problem, and if one isn't working, you are going to have to go back and try again, varying tactics. Checkpoints or no, this approach is FAR more fun than whacking buttons in combat, you actually have to use the environment and THINK. A cerebral game for cerebral gamers...

A14.

 

[Stabwound]

They were probably planning on releasing it on the PC from the start, and this was all just a very big and successful viral marketing campaign.

I want to believe that this isn't the case and an online petition actually accomplished something.

Although the circumstances make a planned viral campaign possible.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

it's a change at least
yes please, more viral marketing campaigns for 'inaccessible' titles to convince the easily gamed dipshits that they want to get in on that trend before the game becomes outdated

 

[Phelot]

ArcturusXI, why not post under your old account?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

And really, what fucking consequences, it's a single player game with nothing at stake. There are no consequences.

The consequences are what happens in the game as a result of your actions, of course. Did the warrior get too close to the poisonous monster while fighting the other ones? Too bad, now he's poisoned. Either spend the cleric's precious spell points curing it or have the rest of the party continue without him, possibly being wiped out because now they lack a frontline meatshield. Let's try again.

Unless you don't consider "losing" to be a possible consequence of playing a game, but that would be inane

 

[ArcturusXIV]

And really, what fucking consequences, it's a single player game with nothing at stake. There are no consequences.

The consequences are what happens in the game as a result of your actions, of course. Did the warrior get too close to the poisonous monster while fighting the other ones? Too bad, now he's poisoned. Either spend the cleric's precious spell points curing it or have the rest of the party continue without him, possibly being wiped out because now they lack a frontline meatshield. Let's try again.

Unless you don't consider "losing" to be a possible consequence of playing a game, but that would be inane

Just got back my old account.

Also, consider "cursing." You get cursed, it lasts even after you die. Hence, save as you go! Nobody complained about this in Diablo 2, why complain about it now?

 

[ArcturusXIV]

I am also gonna add, using an outside program to exploit the game is not part of the designers intentions as part of the gameplay experience.

When you play a game, you hum the designer's tune. That's just my opinion!

 

[sgc_meltdown]

why bitch about the checkpoint system in dark souls when it's obviously meant to be the setback you get for dying plus the souls penalty

it's like a roguelike except with checkpoints along with the save when quit, do you complain about nethack or adom or whichever roguelike you don't like people criticising not letting you save and reload later from the same instant

clearly those are not using the power of the pc to its fullest and leftover design failure from console limitations too rite
there is nothing at stake in roguelikes, no consequences for actions in those whatsoever so don't give me that bullshit

shit even titan quest doesn't let you do that and it's not even a shadow of the souls series difficulty

You're right though, I'm sure people are going to do what they want to do and use a trainer or third party program for no death penalty and automatic backup of character files just like savescumming can't stop the revolution

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Dunno, haven't been interested in roguelikes for the longest time. Again is this game a roguelike, where half the fun is failing in some unexpected fashion and then making a new character that might be eaten by a cat? Seems to be a story-driven 3rd-person action game to me, and I have heard talk that it's pretty long as well. That's not the sort of game where I want do-or-die, three lives, no continues. The genre seems like one where the best fit is F5/F6 style saving system. But what do I know. If it's supposed to be a resources management challenge as well then I sort of can see what's it there for. Still seems fucking annoying if you ask me. Otherwise, the game seems pretty interesting and as you can get if for 20€ these days I just might have to find my PS3 controller one of these days.

And maybe I didn't get something? There is indeed nothing at stake in roguelikes, maybe you start over or not, maybe you cheat. It does not matter in the least, you'll beat the game if you want to or do something else. Or let's put it this way. There are consequences, but they don't matter to anybody else than the player, so it does not matter if he chooses to cheat at them.

 

[Palikka]

ArcturusXIV hmm.. what exactly did you mean by 'the puzzles'?

WHERE THERE WERE PUZZLES

 

[Castanova]

Seems to be a story-driven 3rd-person action game to me, and I have heard talk that it's pretty long as well. That's not the sort of game where I want do-or-die, three lives, no continues. The genre seems like one where the best fit is F5/F6 style saving system. But what do I know. If it's supposed to be a resources management challenge as well then I sort of can see what's it there for. Still seems fucking annoying if you ask me. Otherwise, the game seems pretty interesting and as you can get if for 20€ these days I just might have to find my PS3 controller one of these days.

It's not story-driven whatsoever. You explore a world at will. You move the game forward by exploring more of the world and, in order to do so, you have to clear out areas and beat bosses (sometimes).

It's not a roguelike. Nor is it a "three lives, no continues" game. It's a normal game with a user-controlled checkpoint system (you pick what checkpoint to activate currently) and no save/load feature. It has a Save-Quit feature that allows you to continue playing from wherever you left off but that's it.

If what you want out of a game like this is to hack-and-slash your way through as quickly as possible and the concept of losing 5-10 minutes of progress after you die is offensive to you, then you shouldn't play it.

And maybe I didn't get something? There is indeed nothing at stake in roguelikes, maybe you start over or not, maybe you cheat. It does not matter in the least, you'll beat the game if you want to or do something else. Or let's put it this way. There are consequences, but they don't matter to anybody else than the player, so it does not matter if he chooses to cheat at them.

I know you're not truly this dense. When people talk about consequences in a game they're talking about consequences IN A GAME. Nobody is ever talking about a game that somehow causes consequences in the real world.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

F5/F6 saving style is pretty much godmode, I don't understand why people like it.

 

[Emily]

F5/F6 saving style is pretty much godmode, I don't understand why people like it.

usualy kids, and insicure people play like this. Since they are scared that every move isn't "perfect" and that they might miss out on something : D.
I used to play like that when i was very young also, then i realised how stupid it was and booring.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

It's possible to have games balanced around quicksave. Open world games with a lot of deadly enemies and no level-scaling, for instance, like Gothic or Stalker, would be really frustrating without the ability to save anywhere, on the first playthrough at least. In Stalker on the highest difficulty level and with difficulty enhancing mods, the only thing quicksave does is allow you to act like a retard and die instantly, without any real repercussions - and this honestly does not help that much.