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The Codex of Roguelikes

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,575
Location
Russia atchoum!
I almost completed TOME4 but then my game because so corrupt that I couldn't complete it, everything was bugged and messed up :/ I wish I could find more games like those, focused on combat and limited UI hassles.
My latest try with ToME4 bfore yesterday ended in my Doombringer getting killed in a fucking Daikara (Insane) where he was swarmed in last floor of Fire Daikara.
Was killed without any chances. You need luck in that case, mean combination of Doombringer and Insane.

Also my best char http://te4.org/characters/35987/tome/3690b0e5-1468-434a-b8f8-97e5ed3cf6a8
While he is in combat, all his stats are behind 200 except Str..


So I spat and installed Elona.

Melee is very powerful with all of its weapon types. When we're not counting Martial Arts, Lightsabers (Longswords) have the best damage since they have 100% absolute pierce and you can make them.

If you're still going for Ranged, use Laser guns. They have a distance-tile modifier of 1.0 - 1.0 - 1.0 - 1.0 - 1.0 - 1.0 - 0.4 so you won't have to go about positioning yourself for that 1.0 sweetspot and positioning in the game is a bitch.
Yeah, I remebered thing about Lightsabre, and no, ranged is weaker in that it can do only 2 additional attack in turn.
I buried underarticles on Elona wiki lol, read it alsready second day.

Also note - to get better effect (stat potential) from food you need to eat it while PC have Hunger or Hunger!.

Question - which armor is better - Heavy or Medium, or Light?
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,633
Adom. Just pick troll barbarian rolled 20 times in a row to get Candle and go straight to Unremarkable Cave, get 4-6lvl, find stairs to High Mountain Village, search for altar, get crowned on the way.
Totally not tedious at all. Also that just makes the early game even easier, really. Still just as boring, just now you don't have to try it a dozen times or scum ID to avoid dying to a trap.

Playing ADOM as a wizard and going straight to the puppy cave is pretty fun. ADOM gets pretty boring later with all the stuff you're supposed to do.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,872
Question - which armor is better - Heavy or Medium, or Light?
You referring to the skill or the armour itself (DV vs PV)?

Because the skills are just based on your equipped weight, which includes weapon. Long term you'll have crazy stats and your gear will be light weight no matter what basically, but I wouldn't worry about it, the benefits of the skill are pretty minor.

DV is way better than PV, since piercing attacks are a thing, and status effects and extra elemental damage are pretty common as well. PV is pretty meaningless if you're bleeding for 3000 damage a turn or whatever from the 0 damage attacks. DV also scales better with skills, because Greater Evasion is a bullshit skill.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,575
Location
Russia atchoum!
YEah, I got it, that's why my first char was Fairy.
But there are different active skills, or abilities - a or W letter, related to these armor skills.
Which one is better?
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,633
Everything sooner or later gets boring.

Things like the healer quest or herb farming are particularly terrible. ADOM is full of this kind of stuff. The puppy cave is fun because it's what a roguelike should be - challenging from the start and continually interesting, not filled with mindless repetitive garbage.
 

Emmanuel2

Savant
Joined
Feb 19, 2016
Messages
370
Location
Pearl of the Orient Seas
Question - which armor is better - Heavy or Medium, or Light?
You referring to the skill or the armour itself (DV vs PV)?

Because the skills are just based on your equipped weight, which includes weapon. Long term you'll have crazy stats and your gear will be light weight no matter what basically, but I wouldn't worry about it, the benefits of the skill are pretty minor.

DV is way better than PV, since piercing attacks are a thing, and status effects and extra elemental damage are pretty common as well. PV is pretty meaningless if you're bleeding for 3000 damage a turn or whatever from the 0 damage attacks. DV also scales better with skills, because Greater Evasion is a bullshit skill.

He's playing Elona+. I'm assuming that the comment is for vanilla Elona.

On to Elona+ differences:

Gear is divided by weight class (<15 for Light, 15-35 for Medium and >35 for Heavy), not how much of your weight you are wearing. Even with my max carry load at 267, my equipment weight of 56 is classified as heavy. All my stats are 250+ (STR and WIL are 320+) except for MAG and CHA when I stopped playing for some reference.

The benefits of each skill is basically adding an invisible 1 point of PV for every skill level whenever you're wearing the said type. Once you've reached 30-40 and have finished the Act 1 content, you unlock their exclusive special Actions. Light Armor grants a Greater Evasion buff where you 100% cannot get critically hit (but can get hit like how greater evasion works), Medium grants a 1.2x to all spell damage buff and Heavy grants a damage reduction buff such that it reduces that damage you receive to 20% if the attack is higher than 20% of your Health, then if the damage you'll receive is between 10-20% it gets reduced to a mere 10%, then if the damage is between 5-10% of your max HP it gets reduced to 5%. Though elemental damage gets a separate damage reduction roll but at most is that you'll die from 3-4 hits rather than 1.

Believe it or not, PV is much better than DV. There are enemies that have PER, WIL and Melee skills that are so high that my 751% Evade (each point of DV adds 2% evade and my DV is at 259) character can't even dodge things reliably once enemies start spawning around 200+ levels and 100+ for God race enemies. My PV however can still block 84% + 13d11 damage from all sources and still has resists and even then I still have a high chance to get gibbed by Void 200 enemies. PV also works even against 100% pierce and Absolute piercing attacks, source.

Bleed is based on stacks and has a flat damage, it only ever gets dangerous when you've been neglecting to heal it as a cure light can still remove a stack. A high CON/HP character can stop bleed proc rolls. Status effects aren't really that prevalent when geared up. You can get alot of resists which affect their proc chance (nerve for paralysis, mind for confuse, etc.) then you can also try and find precious items or randarts that grant immunity.

I almost completed TOME4 but then my game because so corrupt that I couldn't complete it, everything was bugged and messed up :/ I wish I could find more games like those, focused on combat and limited UI hassles.
My latest try with ToME4 bfore yesterday ended in my Doombringer getting killed in a fucking Daikara (Insane) where he was swarmed in last floor of Fire Daikara.
Was killed without any chances. You need luck in that case, mean combination of Doombringer and Insane.

Also my best char http://te4.org/characters/35987/tome/3690b0e5-1468-434a-b8f8-97e5ed3cf6a8
While he is in combat, all his stats are behind 200 except Str..


So I spat and installed Elona.

Melee is very powerful with all of its weapon types. When we're not counting Martial Arts, Lightsabers (Longswords) have the best damage since they have 100% absolute pierce and you can make them.

If you're still going for Ranged, use Laser guns. They have a distance-tile modifier of 1.0 - 1.0 - 1.0 - 1.0 - 1.0 - 1.0 - 0.4 so you won't have to go about positioning yourself for that 1.0 sweetspot and positioning in the game is a bitch.
Yeah, I remebered thing about Lightsabre, and no, ranged is weaker in that it can do only 2 additional attack in turn.
I buried underarticles on Elona wiki lol, read it alsready second day.

Also note - to get better effect (stat potential) from food you need to eat it while PC have Hunger or Hunger!.

Question - which armor is better - Heavy or Medium, or Light?

I also said that ranged is weaker among the three archetypes (melee, ranged, magic), I just added that laser gun bit when you'd like to do a ranged character regardless.

Yes, hunger and hunger! does affect nutrition level. Once the herbed in food starts rolling however, it won't matter but that will take a while since you'll be handing over Little Sisters alot to get atleast 6-7 Kumiromi statues for a stable seed source (Little sister quests can duplicate statues, precious items and precious foods, but not equipment).


For the armor question:

If you're going for a magic character, Medium for lesser spellcasting penalties and for Magic Equip special action. If you're going for anything else, Heavy for the PV and for Super Armor special action.

The benefits of the light superior materials are heavily outweighed by the heavy superior materials.
 

ringwyrm

Barely Literate
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
1
This is my first post, so trigger warning: I'm possibly retarded.

When we say "rogue-like" what do we mean? Because I assume it means permadeath, but then why not just call it that? Permadeath seems more functional because it kind of describes what it is. Rogue-like games have a number of qualities besides permadeath that make them rogue-like. I think it would be worth noting in the list some common rogue-like attributes ("procedurally jerked-off maps," "f*** you, your dead forever," "I hope you like ASCII, bitch," and so on). I say this because there are many games that are associated with "rogue-likes" based solely on the adoption of a single rogue-like feature, most commonly permadeath, but are in every other way nothing like Rogue. Steam, I'm looking at your never-ending list of shitty games with "rogue-like" in the description.

Also I ask because there are some wonderful games with rogue-like shit going on that don't have permadeath. And I like those games.



<-ringwyrm->
 

Emmanuel2

Savant
Joined
Feb 19, 2016
Messages
370
Location
Pearl of the Orient Seas
This is my first post, so trigger warning: I'm possibly retarded.

When we say "rogue-like" what do we mean? Because I assume it means permadeath, but then why not just call it that? Permadeath seems more functional because it kind of describes what it is. Rogue-like games have a number of qualities besides permadeath that make them rogue-like. I think it would be worth noting in the list some common rogue-like attributes ("procedurally jerked-off maps," "f*** you, your dead forever," "I hope you like ASCII, bitch," and so on). I say this because there are many games that are associated with "rogue-likes" based solely on the adoption of a single rogue-like feature, most commonly permadeath, but are in every other way nothing like Rogue. Steam, I'm looking at your never-ending list of shitty games with "rogue-like" in the description.

Also I ask because there are some wonderful games with rogue-like shit going on that don't have permadeath. And I like those games.



<-ringwyrm->

To answer whether those games with rogue-like elements that do not have permadeath are roguelikes or not, well, they're not.

I'd recommend not concerning yourself with the problem of defining the genre and just find a game you'd want to play rather than if this game falls into this category or not. If you still want to hear another's opinion, there are some I've made a somewhat lengthy rant of which I spoiler-ed 2 pages back on my own opinion of what is a roguelike.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of these people who overuse the term "roguelike" when assigning genre neither care nor understand why we use different words to describe different things. They are often just ignorantly parroting a term that has been relegated to marketing buzzword tier by modern indie devs. They are completely unqualified to influence the meaning of niche terminology, even through brute force.

This post sums it up in a very nice way as to why you see a lot of games masquerading as roguelikes on Steam. Heck even FtL, BoI and Rogue Legacy for example classify themselves as roguelites / roguelike-likes / "a game inspired by roguelikes", it's generally the masses that use the terms incorrectly but hey, that's how game genres work.
 
Unwanted

DrDigej

Unwanted
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
122
Survived winter in Dont Starve with a day20 savegame. Died only 3 times. Recipies are autistic as expected. Playing without spoilers would be retardo. https://bluehexagons.github.io/foodguide/html/index.htm
4 wolves appeared at inappropriate time. Ded.
Treeguardian spawned... Bullshit. Ded.
Dont remember, might have herded one penguin not far enough away... Ded.

And now there doesnt seem much else to do? Repeat the summer prep for winter again? Build magic machine? Farm spiders like a retard?
I actually gave myself unlimited logs, grass and twigs and its still tedious. The running alone to points of interest is taxing...

Might just lock hunger health and sanity and run around looking for funny setpieces. Otherwise Uninstall.exe
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,575
Location
Russia atchoum!
Is it worth to grab and store equipment that add attrubutes, and later convert it in Raw equipment with scrolls of inferior materials or it isn't worth a hussle?
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,872
Strict definitions aren't useful. Going by those two criteria, you'd include something like Gauntlet or Spelunky or basically any game with an ironman mode.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Strict definitions aren't useful. Going by those two criteria, you'd include something like Gauntlet or Spelunky or basically any game with an ironman mode.

The definition game is a rat hole. There are probably a couple dozen characteristics people associate with roguelikes. I doubt any single game has all of them and everyone has a different group of those characteristics that they consider to be the definition.

Or you could be a dick and just use how many features it shares with Rogue.
 

Emmanuel2

Savant
Joined
Feb 19, 2016
Messages
370
Location
Pearl of the Orient Seas
Is it worth to grab and store equipment that add attrubutes, and later convert it in Raw equipment with scrolls of inferior materials or it isn't worth a hussle?

For my current save, I never used it. I never bothered with the rapid growth states as unless you're going for Void 200+, you can still complete all the content in under 150 hours including the God Forts in Act 1 and 2.

I'm pretty sure it isn't worth doing unless you have the Dumbbell of Opatos, a training machine, and mine every block in Lumias to have access to the Lulwynd statues. That way, theoretically, you could level your stats pretty fast.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,575
Location
Russia atchoum!
Emmanuel2 OK it is mid-endgame trick, but I still ocasionally eat raw equipment.

Another question - if you using skill while have items increasing this skill it is help to develop this skill, or it slow its development or no difference?
 

Emmanuel2

Savant
Joined
Feb 19, 2016
Messages
370
Location
Pearl of the Orient Seas
Emmanuel2 OK it is mid-endgame trick, but I still ocasionally eat raw equipment.

Another question - if you using skill while have items increasing this skill it is help to develop this skill, or it slow its development or no difference?

It's not really a mid-endgame trick since you basically have to match the Act 3 NPC god's stats in order to have a chance at getting the dumbbell.

There's a difference. The God Gems (4th piety level reward IIRC) reduces your skill levels massively but can help train the respective skills.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,575
Location
Russia atchoum!
Yeah, I though about them too, that's why I asked.
But I think even there is a difference, early game it is better to use equipment than not to use it.
 

SkeleTony

Augur
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
938
This is my first post, so trigger warning: I'm possibly retarded.

When we say "rogue-like" what do we mean? Because I assume it means permadeath, but then why not just call it that? Permadeath seems more functional because it kind of describes what it is. Rogue-like games have a number of qualities besides permadeath that make them rogue-like. I think it would be worth noting in the list some common rogue-like attributes ("procedurally jerked-off maps," "f*** you, your dead forever," "I hope you like ASCII, bitch," and so on). I say this because there are many games that are associated with "rogue-likes" based solely on the adoption of a single rogue-like feature, most commonly permadeath, but are in every other way nothing like Rogue. Steam, I'm looking at your never-ending list of shitty games with "rogue-like" in the description.

Also I ask because there are some wonderful games with rogue-like shit going on that don't have permadeath. And I like those games.



<-ringwyrm->

As far as I can tell there are only two features common to all roguelikes: Perma-death and randomized dungeon maps. Everything else is specific to some RLs but not all. Like any label 'roguelike' is merely a term of convenience that should tell you a game has randomized dungeons and perma-death (though most RLs have options for getting around or doing away with even this feature).

RLs can be graphical, party-based, real time, ascii, singleton, turn-based etc.
 

Jack Dandy

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Israel
Divinity: Original Sin 2
This is my first post, so trigger warning: I'm possibly retarded.

When we say "rogue-like" what do we mean? Because I assume it means permadeath, but then why not just call it that? Permadeath seems more functional because it kind of describes what it is. Rogue-like games have a number of qualities besides permadeath that make them rogue-like. I think it would be worth noting in the list some common rogue-like attributes ("procedurally jerked-off maps," "f*** you, your dead forever," "I hope you like ASCII, bitch," and so on). I say this because there are many games that are associated with "rogue-likes" based solely on the adoption of a single rogue-like feature, most commonly permadeath, but are in every other way nothing like Rogue. Steam, I'm looking at your never-ending list of shitty games with "rogue-like" in the description.

Also I ask because there are some wonderful games with rogue-like shit going on that don't have permadeath. And I like those games.



<-ringwyrm->
http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
The berlin interpretation bears all the hallmarks of design by committee, and, as a consequence, is useless in arbitrating disputes between competing views of what the word roguelike means.

Although take my salt with a grain of salt, b/c I'm just cheesed at the way it's treated like this authoritative document when the conference was probably just 20 grad students in a pub.
 

Tito Anic

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
1,679
Location
Magalan
Tome 1.5 BETA

New donator class: Possessors
Imported Stone Wardens class into the base game, with an unlock
Fully rewrote Archer class
Fully rewrote Rogue class
Rewrote Survival tree
Altered other warrior & rogue subclasses to match new categories
New Light Armour Training talent

Antimagic now scales with either Mindpower of Physical power
Resolve now works even while Antimagic Shield is up when at level 5
Mana Clash now also adds a timed effect that adds manaburn to all damage dealt
Antimagic Shield max absorb buffed and now does a manaburn backlask against the attacker
Aura of Silence now also restores equilibrium for each foes silenced

:bounce:

http://te4.org/beta-test
 

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