The Codex’s Best Computer RPGs (pre-Diablo)

[Morpheus Kitami]

What the fuck is Princess Maker 2? I've always thought it was just a loli JRPG for degenerates, but there are too many people with good taste voting for it.

It's a game that was too controversial, and publisher after it was translated to English decided to not release it in English speaking countries. Then one of programmers who translated it, didn't want publisher to shat on his work, and illegally released it as pirated version.

And since then west knows PM2 as a ONE OF THE BEST JAPANESE GAMES. (It was before Japanese become dumber and multicultural, and thus it has VERY controversial moments. Like, you can marry your stepdaughter.)

That's not what happened at all, though I'm sure if it ever did get released it would have been controversial for several reasons. The translator actually said what happened about it many years ago, here. The TL;DR is that they chose to translate a DOS game in 1995, and nobody wanted to publish it because it was DOS. That's the explanation. Eventually they sold it to Infracorp/Capstone, who were about to go bankrupt. As a result nobody ever actually released the game, it seems the release that was around abandonware sites for decades was just a beta.

 

[honko]

5 points
Betrayal at Krondor

5 points
Ishar 3

Games for virgins: wizardry games
Games for weirdos : ultima games

 

[Drunken Irishman]

Starting with 10 points.

Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny - 4 points.

Why? It's the best Ultima. Being actually an outlaw, and having to be careful in towns and to avoid guards and spies, is such a good idea that it on it's own can lead to brilliant gameplay design choices. I'm stunned that more rpg's haven't followed on this premise. Here are great ideas than could create the ultimate immersive sim meets rpg experience, if only someone had the eyes to see. Lazarus had the right instinct to remake Ultima 5. Unfortunately DS engine does it little justice.

Ultima VII: Black Gate - 3 points.

It's a remarkable game. Terribly flawed? Yes. Brilliant? Also yes. In fact, I was just playing it a few hours ago. It could have been a father to a subgenre of it's own. At the moment, it's an evolutionary dead end. But maybe someday, someone will try to do Ultima VII better.

3 points left. Now I have to think...

?Ultima Underworld 7 Pary 2: Serpent Isle (Origin)? - what the hell is this name? Sabotage? Come on!

I actually like Serpent Isle more than Black Gate. And I think, up to the swamp of Gorlab, Serpent Isle is an example of an almost perfectly designed game, that should be in every game designer's vocabulary. Unfortunately, that is only 60% of the game. The rest of the game had a Kotor 2 situation. I would like to vote for it. But I won't. On it's own it won't have a chance, there are few defenders of this game... and even though they are different, they are also similar enough that Ultima VII can represent games like Serpent Isle too.

I haven't played Albion. What I've heard about it, makes me wonder, if it could be a contender.

I'm thinking if I give any points to Betrayal at Krondor. It's already doing quite well.

Okay, let's continue.

Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds - 1 point.

It was going to be one of the Underworld games. They're both brilliant games. But personally I enjoy the base under siege feel of Underworld II more than the solitary survival feel of Underworld I.

Dark Sun: Shattered Lands - 1 point.

I was hesitating a bit with this one. This game for me never reaches to the level, where I would love it. But, it's an interesting game. There's something of the Ultima's in it's DNA. And of course, it's Gold Box inheritance too. But it was definitely informed by the Ultima's. This could have been a more interesting forefather to modern rpg's than the Bioware progeny. It's not a proto-Baldur's Gate. It is it's own thing.

Now to whom I give the final 1 point to?

Quest for Glory games? No, I don't think so. I like them, yes... but, I want something else. Elder Scrolls? No, not a fan of Daggerfall. Too random. But what then? Lands of Lore? It's a solid game, yes... but I'm not feeling it.

Ah, fuck it. Let's just roll with the lol.

Princess Maker 2 - 1 point. Because... it's really damn addictive. Try it at your own risk. Pretty soon, you'll be buying booby pills, so your baby girl would have the biggest boobs in the entire kingdom, and then you dress her up in slutty attire, because you are a good father.

Spoiler

 

[Peldor]

1 point:
Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds
Ultima 7: The Black Gate

2 points
Ultima 4: Quest of the Avatar

3 points
Ultima Underworld 7 Part 2: Serpent Isle

 

[Clink]

2 - Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
2 - Wizardry VII: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
2 - Betrayal at Krondor
2 - Dark Sun: Shattered Lands
2 - Ravenloft: Stone Prophet

 

[Catacombs]

Deuce Traveler: Any chance we can get the total scores thus far?

EDIT: Attempted my own analysis with the entries up to this morning:

Spoiler

   game                             total votes   avg median
 1 Betrayal at Krondor                142    50  2.84      3
 2 Wizardry 7                         136    51  2.67      2
 3 Dark Sun: Shattered Lands          134    55  2.44      2
 4 Darklands                          117    39  3         3
 5 Ultima Underworld                  112    38  2.95      3
 6 The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall    80    36  2.22      2
 7 Pool of Radiance                    72    33  2.18      2
 8 Might & Magic: World of Xeen        60    23  2.61      2
 9 Ultima 7                            59    23  2.57      3
10 Realms of Arkania 2: Star Trail     43    14  3.07      2

Suggestion for the next poll: Set a unified standard for each entry as a rule; something like "Game - #" to make parsing easier.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Deuce Traveler: Any chance we can get the total scores thus far?

no spoilerinos

 

[Conan]

Betrayal in Antara 5 points
Birthright: Gorgon's alliance 5 points

 

[Darth Canoli]

Codex user: -Let's do a pre-diablo best RPG list!

Codex Mouthbreathers chorum: -But, we barely played any 80s and 90s RPG, you're so meaaaan!

Codex Mouthbreather beta: -It's alright, i've played one, I can vote and give my expert opinion!

Codex Mouthbreathers Chorum: -Oh, you're right, I've played 2 (other one) And i've played 2 as well! (other one) Three here, hahaha, let's vote!

Codex Neckbeard beta: -Me too, i've only played the ultima franchise but what else is there anyway, let's vote guys!

Codex Neckbeard delta: I'm calling my twatter friends and i'll tell them which game to vote for, because they don't even know what is a RPG but they should give their my opinion as well!

 

[Darth Roxor]

you seem upset

 

[Tacgnol]

The game I wanted to win isn't winning, fuck all of you.

I made your post a lot more concise whilst keeping the meaning exactly the same.

 

[Darth Canoli]

you seem upset

Not at all, what I thought would happen is happening, i'm just a straight shooter, not an ostrich, some of them don't even hide they barely played any RPG of that era but it doesn't stop them...

 

[Lord_Potato]

Well now, Darth Canoli I've got something for you...

You'll thank me later.

 

[Nortar]

you seem upset

Not at all, what I thought would happen is happening, i'm just a straight shooter, not an ostrich, some of them don't even hide they barely played any RPG of that era but it doesn't stop them...

But this is the purpose of this poll.
As Deuce Traveler said, he wants a "hivemind opinion", not the absolute verdict based on objective analysis of the strengths and flaws of each game.

If you would only allow voters who had played all the games on the list and kept perfect memories about each of them, I suspect you won't get any voters at all.

Personally, I have vague recollections of playing a good number (although not even a half!) of listed games, but I voted for the 3 I spent hours playing.

Does it make them objectively better than others, especially those I had not seen?
Well, to be fair, probably not; but the fact is I played them and not something else, when I had a choice, and they made a longer-lasting impression.
So subjectively they were the "best" for me.

 

[Lady Error]

1 point:
Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds
Ultima 7: The Black Gate

2 points
Ultima 4: Quest of the Avatar

3 points
Ultima Underworld 7 Part 2: Serpent Isle

5 titles max

 

[Tacgnol]

Also what's the issue if people vote for games they have "fond memories" of?

If a game has generated a fond memory isn't that a positive thing that reflects something memorable or good about the game?

 

[NJClaw]

Codex Mouthbreather beta: -It's alright, i've played one, I can vote and give my expert opinion!

Played?!

I thought we were voting for the coolest sounding title ideas.

 

[Darth Canoli]

If you would only allow voters who had played all the games on the list and kept perfect memories about each of them, I suspect you won't get any voters at all.

There's a middle ground between having played 1-3 games from that era but still voting and having played recently all the games from that list, one can think he knows what he's doing if he played at least one game of each series and refreshed his memory "recently".

Of course, it depends on the aim of this new list, what does it want to glorify?

1. Games i'd have fond memories of if I was born 30 years ago and it was the first game i ever played.
2. Best storyfag games released more than 30 years ago.
   
3. Games that were good back then and are still good nowadays because the combat design and quest designs holds on and the devs were visionaries.

Of course, being the Codex, the answer should be 1 or 2, right?

Next time, why not publish first list popping up while searching the internet, it'll be the same result with less efforts and same voters?

 

[jackofshadows]

Also what's the issue if people vote for games they have "fond memories" of?

If a game has generated a fond memory isn't that a positive thing that reflects something memorable or good about the game?

Yes, that's exactly explain why Princess Maker 2 is on the list.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Personally, I have vague recollections of playing a good number (although not even a half!) of listed games, but I voted for the 3 I spent hours playing.

Does it make them objectively better than others, especially those I had not seen?
Well, to be fair, probably not; but the fact is I played them and not something else, when I had a choice, and they made a longer-lasting impression.
So subjectively they were the "best" for me.

About this, there's a couple of games I found alright and they fell apart on a second playthrough, they're not even from the previous century.
DAO & PoE fall into this category.

On the other hand, I remember having a great time with BG and found BG 2 alright but Irenicus insufferable back then even if I don't like RTwP.
Well, BG holds on 20+ years later and BG 2 is still an alright janky mess with a retarded story.

It's really interesting to read nostalgic reviews of Older BEST RPG EVA before playing them, when i see players shitting on Fallout or even worse, WL 2 combat and I hear praises of WL...
Also RoA, BaK combat, i understand it was "all new" back then and that's why you can't rely on nostalgia because it didn't age well.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Deuce Traveler: Any chance we can get the total scores thus far?

Nope. That's a lot of work and it is still going to be difficult for the Ring of Prestigious Gentlemen to check the numbers with me. I've noticed a few people change their vote with new posts instead of editing their old ones and a few others didn't quite follow the rules. Other posters have been doing updates, however, so maybe one of them will do another summation for you. Personally, I think we should just wait because it might encourage voters to change their votes if a game they don't like ends up running away with one of the top positions.

Also, to answer a previous question about why many rogue-likes have been left out, but Rogue was left in; Rogue was the one that started it all and had a commercial release from Epyx while many of the other rogue-likes did not. We decided that justified Rogue being on the list. Personally, I'm a huge Angband and Zangband fan, and I also wanted Omega included since it ranked so high on CRPGAddict's site. But if we were going to include those, we would have had to include literally dozens of others that would have flooded the listing. We had to cut the rogue-like list down by some criteria otherwise we would have had DnD, Dungeon, Rogue, Telengard, The Tomb of Drewan, Moria, Sword of Fargoal, Hack, Larn, Nethack, Omega, Mike's Adventure Game, Castle of the Winds, Imoria, Angband, Boss, Unreal World, Crossfire, Ragnarok, Dungeon Hack, Fangband, ADOM, Zangband, AlphaMan, Kaduria, Linley's Dungeon Crawl, GW-Angband, Over, Rogue's Quest, the Minstrel's Song and probably ever major overhaul of each of those all included in the list. Keeping it to commercial releases helped justify only commercially released versions like Rogue, Sword of Fargoal, Castle of the Winds, Ragnarok, and Dungeon Hack making the list. Unfortunately, this meant keeping the well-received Omega and my loved Zangband off the lists. As a side note, the only Angband derivative I ever beat was Sangband. Being able to put points into your own skill development certainly made the game easier. The later DOS version of Zangband remains my favorite rogue-like of all time, followed by late-DOS Angband. Those two games are unforgiving towards me, but I still love them despite the abuse.

On the commercial side I beat Castle of the Winds and Dungeon Hack. I never stuck with Rogue long enough to make a serious attempt. I did play a ton of Moria in the early 90s since my girlfriend was a huge fan, but I never beat that one either.

 

[Decado]

BaK combat, i understand it was "all new" back then and that's why you can't rely on nostalgia because it didn't age well.

See this is 100% wrong. Because BaK combat has aged pretty well. It is still a very good tactical mini-game stuffed into the larger game. You have positioning, spells, distance modifiers, ranged and melee combat, managing buffs/debuffs, equipment condition, special items. There is a shit-ton of stuff crammed into the BaK combat, and you will use most of it.

Again, amazing how wrong and dumb you are on this. You don't even have to like BaK, but claiming that the combat "hasn't aged well" is just ridiculous.

 

[Dorateen]

The final vote still has to be certified by the electors of the Ring of Prestigious Gentlemen.

 

[Peldor]

1 point:
Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds
Ultima 7: The Black Gate

2 points
Ultima 4: Quest of the Avatar

3 points
Ultima Underworld 7 Part 2: Serpent Isle

5 titles max

Oops let me fix that. So many titles worth mentioning from those days

1 point:
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant

2 points
Ultima 4: Quest of the Avatar
Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds

4 points
Ultima 7 Part 2: Serpent Isle

 

[Lady Error]

Ultima Underworld 7 Pary 2: Serpent Isle (Origin)

Ultima Underworld 7 Part 2: Serpent Isle

Is this some kind of running joke that I am not getting?