Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[DraQ]

BG series certainly contributed to the rise of the Decline, but it's hardly among the worst offenders out there. In any case, whining about the decline of a 17-year-old game during your first week on the Codex just screams of an edgy newfag trying way too hard to be a hardcore KKKodexer who doesn't even take a shit without rolling a dice.

Well I've disliked BG for 17 years now but according to you since I've registered here recently I should claim it's the best game like all the other lemmings? But hey your assumptions about me actually tell a lot about yourself.

So you had 17 sad years? I am so sorry for your man. I hope you find some fun in life with such amazing games as "Dragon Age 2" or "Mass Effect which color ending do you want".

Joined: Mar 16, 2015
( SwiftCrack )

I certainly would rate the bald man talking to his hamster above every Larian effort at 'humour'.

Well, it certainly beats yours.

Because of all the drama around Roxor's review of Eternity, I decided to (re)play Baldur's Gate.

...Holy shit, the game is really that boring?

Yes.
Well, mostly.
It gets somewhat better towards the end, but you probably won't last that long.

The maps are beautiful and generally really open; which is refreshing, since the modern games love confine the player in enclosed and claustrophobic places - a forest in BG *really* looks and feels like a forest.

But then you have TES (discounting Oblivion) that have both open spaces and actual content populating them.
Larian's games aren't particularly claustrophobic either.

And... That's it, I guess? Most of the time I'm just clearing the "fog of war" on the maps, killing a lot of trash mobs, fulfilling ridiculous quest asked by some random NPCs scattered around.

Yup.

I think I have about 15+ hours of playtime (levels around 5-6 I think). The whole game is like that?

Yup (mostly, see above).

I don't know how anyone can consider BG as part of the the apex of RPGs. It's not a horrible game too, it's just mediocre

Welcum to the light.

I keep playing because of the exploration and the beautiful levels.

Wait until you realize that *you* aren't really exploring - everything that can be found is either obvious once you uncover the fog of war or completely random stashes without any clues separating them from the generic background. You are just the device that mechanically waves the cursor over the screen and clicks on the blackened bits, a role that could be replaced by several lines worth of script.

Let's try then. When you click for the character to walk to certain point, he doesn't simply walk there. Even if you have no enemies attacking him at the time and he has no script on, he "stutters", makes some "short pauses" while walking and often chooses the worst way to reach the destination. This reminds me a little of the problems that existed in Starcraft 1 (but here they are worse, more apparent), when you tried to micromanage the zerglings or other units (especially the dragoon). They behave strangely and some times it requires you to make several small orders so they would move the right way. It's probably a engine-thing, something of the time that the game was made - but it's still very annoying.

Because of this, the fighting often seems more chaotic than what it really is (or should be). If you really want to have control of what's going on, you need to pause almost all the time to ensure that a character will not simply be positioned in the wrong way. And this doesn't happen because you clicked in the wrong place, but simply because the character "decided" to take a stupid path, or because they decided to hang in the way, allowing time for an enemy to arrive in the position that he should be if he moved the way he should. To avoid this, you need to pause constantly to make several minor corrections in the movement: if so, what is the purpose of a RTWP system if the real time part just barely "exist"? A turn-based system would be less confusing and more elegant.

So basically there are only two combat situations in the game so far: 1) most of the time the enemies are so stupid that even with what was said before, you can annihilate them without much concern, or 2) when enemies have effective spells/powers, which requires greater control of your characters but causes a huge mess when you want to position them correctly. I would not consider this as "fun".

You can also nuke most enemies from beyond visual range with AoE spells. The AI stops proccing when it isn't seen.

I'm helping.

They start going haywire in places like Firewine Ruins, of course.

*PTSDs furiously*
Firewine Ruins, THE worst cRPG dungeon I've ever experienced.

I don't know, I have zero problem making them go anywhere I want them to in combat. They don't randomly stop moving, they don't randomly take the long way round (because you'd never give them very long pathways during combat).

They do. It only takes a momentary obstacle like another character being in the way.

Actually, even dragon age inquisition is way better than bg1.
bg1=oblivion of its time at best, one of the biggest harbinger of decline at worst.

This.
Though I would rate BG1 slightly higher than OB.
Let's say that BG1 is the line separating "good for what it is" from "utter, unredeemable shit" that is OB.
Though calling BG1 Oblivion of its times is probably the most concise way of summarizing it.

 

[Modron]

They start going haywire in places like Firewine Ruins, of course.

*PTSDs furiously*
Firewine Ruins, THE worst cRPG dungeon I've ever experienced.

Never really understood the butthurt about firewine, it's like 3 minutes long and none of the fights are hard. The maze isn't really a maze and only has like 4-5 traps in it, it's better than the end game thief's practice course or whatever it's called and that is not optional but at that point in the game you are probably numb to the game and just powering through to the end.

 

[Tigranes]

I certainly would rate the bald man talking to his hamster above every Larian effort at 'humour'.

Well, it certainly beats yours.

I'm sure they would, if I ever tried to write an RPG. I don't see anything redeemable about Larian humour 99% of the time, though, whereas Minsc is a kind of inoffensively mediocre one-trick pony you'd find in most American or British sitcoms. (He would probably have become very, very annoying with the wrong voice actor.) I'd suspect brain damage for people that found, say, Dragon Commander's NPCs funny or weren't gnashing teeth at their voice acting.

Firewine isn't very annoying, I was just saying that's about the only places where you actually see any real problems with pathfinding. So many people on the Codex complain about the camera and pathfinding on various games and I guess I never see it. You either move in small steps or you move to the other side of the map and not care about precision, and adjusting the camera should be subconscious after a while. I guess it really is personal difference.

 

[Eyestabber]

There aren't a whole lot of games using the D&D ruleset to begin with, and most of them are worse than BG1. Take BG2 out of the equation and you're left with what? Temple of Elemental Boredom? Neverplaythiscrap? You can say MotB is better (and I'd agree with you), but other than that...? You would have to go way back in time, or drop the ruleset altogether.

And calling BG a "Harbinger of Decline" is just confusing of cause and effect, nothing else. The RPG genre was on the brink of extinction when Diablo and Baldur's Gate stepped in to save the day. Without said titles, games a like yourself consider to be utter shit, the genre would have DIED. Even people that absolutely despise BG are capable of admiting this simple fact (http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/what-cau-ed-the-decline.97236/page-10).

But, hey, whatever makes you feel cool man, it's all good. Feel free to quote my join date too, the Codexian "I Win button".

 

[ArchAngel]

But, hey, whatever makes you feel cool man, it's all good. Feel free to quote my join date too, the Codexian "I Win button".

More like Codexian hipster button.

 

[laclongquan]

I do remember that period when they lamented RPG was dying, and RTS was coming up, way up.

 

[DraQ]

inoffensively mediocre one-trick pony

That's a contradiction in terms.

I'd suspect brain damage for people that found, say, Dragon Commander's NPCs funny or weren't gnashing teeth at their voice acting.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Divinity 2, but I'm pretty sure there was not a single line in BG1 spoken by a character that would be better than any single such line in DC.
Maybe with exception of the one mentioning Elminster AND his hat - it might be better than handful of DC lines.
Then again, I've been suspecting BG1 fans of brain damage for a long time.

Also, is anyone else in favour of changing Tigranes' nick to "Amdusias"?

Firewine isn't very annoying, I was just saying that's about the only places where you actually see any real problems with pathfinding.

More like it's the place where BG's pathfinding algorithm becomes noticeably worse than "try to walk towards the target in straight line ignoring any and all obstacles such as map layout".

 

[DeepOcean]

Never really understood the butthurt about firewine, it's like 3 minutes long and none of the fights are hard.

Three words: respawning kobold commandos, lots and lots of them.

 

[kmonster]

I do remember that period when they lamented RPG was dying, and RTS was coming up, way up.

And then a game was released with "addictive gameplay, immense replayability, dark atmosphere, superior graphics, moody musical score and great variety of magic items, enemies and quests" which brought the genre up to the light again.

Its name was Diablo.

 

[DraQ]

There aren't a whole lot of games using the D&D ruleset to begin with

Not a big loss.

Neverplaythiscrap?

You can say MotB is better (and I'd agree with you), but other than that...?

PS:T

And calling BG a "Harbinger of Decline" is just confusing of cause and effect, nothing else. The RPG genre was on the brink of extinction when Diablo and Baldur's Gate stepped in to save the day. Without said titles, games a like yourself consider to be utter shit, the genre would have DIED.

And?

Eventually someone would have sifted through the rubble and resurrected it with fresh ideas and critically considered mix of the old ones. Instead we get throwbacks to IE because "HWRRR RTWP IS GWD" that cave in under popular* pressure even when trying to implement genuine improvements (nice visuals notwithstanding).

You may say reinventing the wheel is wasteful and in most cases I'd agree, but it also happens to be the only way to make one that isn't fucking square if the original was.

*

 

[agris]

Spoiler

They start going haywire in places like Firewine Ruins, of course.

*PTSDs furiously*
Firewine Ruins, THE worst cRPG dungeon I've ever experienced.

Never really understood the butthurt about firewine, it's like 3 minutes long and none of the fights are hard. The maze isn't really a maze and only has like 4-5 traps in it, it's better than the end game thief's practice course or whatever it's called and that is not optional but at that point in the game you are probably numb to the game and just powering through to the end.

And there's the named ogre mage fight in the ravine, as a bonus. That one is fun, if you're using SCS and aren't over-leveled.

 

[Tigranes]

inoffensively mediocre one-trick pony

That's a contradiction in terms.

I'd suspect brain damage for people that found, say, Dragon Commander's NPCs funny or weren't gnashing teeth at their voice acting.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Divinity 2, but I'm pretty sure there was not a single line in BG1 spoken by a character that would be better than any single such line in DC.
Maybe with exception of the one mentioning Elminster AND his hat - it might be better than handful of DC lines.
Then again, I've been suspecting BG1 fans of brain damage for a long time.

Also, is anyone else in favour of changing Tigranes' nick to "Amdusias"?

Like, really? You found anything in Dragon Commander funny or witty? I mean, I don't think I'd defend any line in BG, either, but it's more a question of which one had more lines that make you embarrassed the game is on your hard drive. Divinity 2 was a bit better about it, with a few cool moments.

If we're going that way, I always thought Infinitron should be Funes.

 

[Eyestabber]

Not a big loss.

Of course! It's not like D&D created your hobby or anything.

PS:T

Serious question: you ever played pen-and-paper AD&D? I ask this because PS:T differs immensely from traditional AD&D, both in terms of setting and rules. But that's just personal nitpicking, you wanna toss PS:T with the other D&D titles and call it "better than BG" I won't bother to argue. I will, however, point out that PS:T had awful combat and would be better off being a book instead. Maybe said book already exists?

And?

Eventually someone would have sifted through the rubble and resurrected it with fresh ideas and critically considered mix of the old ones. Instead we get throwbacks to IE because "HWRRR RTWP IS GWD" that cave in under popular* pressure even when trying to implement genuine improvements (nice visuals notwithstanding).

You may say reinventing the wheel is wasteful and in most cases I'd agree, but it also happens to be the only way to make one that isn't fucking square if the original was.

Ok, now you just went off the rails. Your argument contains equal parts of disregard for how an economy works, misguided contempt for RTwP and the foolish notion that IE games somehow "failed".

About economics: you believe "someone would have sifted through the rubble and resurrected" because we are witnessing a cRPG revival right now. You would NEVER say something like that if we were in 2011. Had the cRPG genre died in the late 90', it would've stayed dead. Because development costs were steadily increasing and game companies small and big were no longer able to finance big projects without investor support. Said investors don't give money out of the kindness of their hearts: they wanna see results aka profits. Risks are only worth it if the investor truly believes the market will go for it. Now, imagine a guy pitching his ideas to the board: "hey guys, remember that whole genre that crashed and burned? I wanna make a new game on that genre, but THIS TIME IT WILL WORK, TRUST ME!". The only reason why cRPGs are being produced again is because it worked in the past. Look at last year KS releases: do you really consider ANY of those games to be ground-breaking innovation?

On RTwP: tons of threads on the matter already, so I'll just say this: RTwP is a superior choice when you have to deal with several low odds dice rolls (or ANY sort of constant dice rolling) that involve little-to-no-choice. Best example being two low level fighters attacking each other on AD&D rules. "Choice" is a simple "stab, stab again, stab again, yep, stab". If you wanna roll dices in TB for 10 attacks with some 20-30% CTH, be my guest. TB is superior when several options are available, but when you add too many people taking turns it leads to boredom. Therefore, TB is also more suited for smaller scale combat. I love X-Com, JA2, D:OS and others I forgot to mention so I don't need any convincing that TB is good. I just think that RTwP is also a functional choice.

On IE games "failing": I sincerely believe that, when it comes to games, music and art, time is the gold standard. Industry spawned talentless pop "singers" and "BEST MUSIC EVAAAR" come and go while the Rolling Stones remain. Games are no different. Tons of strategy games out there, and yet people are still playing Xcom. For the very first time. And making mods, clones, you name it. Baldur's Gate is a 17 y/o game, yet Beamdog saw fit to re-release it. Why? Graphics are dated, and the game was always utter shit, right? So why bother? And what's to say about modders that keep updating stuff they made for a friggin 17 y/o game? And the people discussing a 17 y/o game (that includes you, btw)? Why do you think every developer out there involved on making a high-fantasy-medieval-style-RPG KNEELS before Baldur's Gate before saying ANYTHING about their upcoming game? Lemme guess: all this time we've been worshiping a false god, and you've come to save us, OH MIGHTY MESSIAH!

Seriously, it's been 17 years. Time to let it go, man. Whatever crimes you think BG is guilty of, you are wasting your time chasing the guy that stepped on your grass while Stalin is living next door.

 

[Lhynn]

I dont get what the complains about baldurs gate being boring are. It starts slow, real slow, but if you stick to the crit path its fairly good.

 

[Dreaad]

^ You're not fighting dragons, doing back flips, there is no nation to save AND no awesome button. It's horrific, low level adventures are so boring, you can't even shoot fireballs until half way through the game! Even your toons move slowly, none of that modern day spiriting everywhere and quick travel, I mean jees it takes like 5 whole minutes to reveal the fog of war on a map and there's like 20 maps!! The bad guy? Who? All these half ass clues and shit, where is the mwahaha speech before killing everyone you know?!

 

[Telengard]

There aren't a whole lot of games using the D&D ruleset to begin with, and most of them are worse than BG1. Take BG2 out of the equation and you're left with what? Temple of Elemental Boredom? Neverplaythiscrap? You can say MotB is better (and I'd agree with you), but other than that...? You would have to go way back in time, or drop the ruleset altogether.

And calling BG a "Harbinger of Decline" is just confusing of cause and effect, nothing else. The RPG genre was on the brink of extinction when Diablo and Baldur's Gate stepped in to save the day. Without said titles, games a like yourself consider to be utter shit, the genre would have DIED. Even people that absolutely despise BG are capable of admiting this simple fact (http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/what-cau-ed-the-decline.97236/page-10).

But, hey, whatever makes you feel cool man, it's all good. Feel free to quote my join date too, the Codexian "I Win button".

There was actually never a year between 88 (the year of the Gold Box introduction) and 98 (release of Baldur's Gate) when a D&D ruleset game did not come out. Baldur's Gate did succeed in destroying turn-based tactical and blobber d&d game development once and for all, though, if that's what you mean. And for many, that is considered incline. After all, Baldur's Gate was released with taglines such as "Not your dad's RPG" for a reason.

 

[Eyestabber]

What really bugs me is the people that say "BG2 is great, BG1 is SHEEEEET". I've always found both games to be pretty similar, honestly. Main difference is that BG2 is higher level and, therefore, opens up more cool options. Low level spellcasting on AD&D ruleset is rather limited, true, but dura lex, sed lex. And starting small and growing over time from a village nobody to a fucking deity is pretty cool.

I've NEVER played a BG2 campaign that with a character that wasn't exported from BG1. Same with ToB. Starting at a higher level always felt awkward for me.

And the encounter design? Lower level monsters on the AD&D monster manual are pretty same-ish. Variation and "uniqueness" comes at mid and high levels. Beholders and Mind Flayers are cooler than Kobolds because they can do stuff other than bark and stab you. But said abilities would completely DESTROY a low level party, so, yeah...better stick with dem Kobolds.

And smacking Kobolds is an ancient RPG tradition, so there is that.

 

[pippin]

BG2 is different in the sense that it's very linear, but in a way that lets you plan ahead what you're going to do. BG1 was more open in that sense, and you could tell there was a difference in visiting Nashkel at level 2 and visiting it at level 4-5.

 

[Modron]

Never really understood the butthurt about firewine, it's like 3 minutes long and none of the fights are hard.

Three words: respawning kobold commandos, lots and lots of them.

Don't they only respawn when you load/save, never ran into any respawning ones when I played through it BG 2 months ago.

 

[laclongquan]

:snort: Another PnP player desperately defends the virtues of such and sneer at PST and its siblings. Since its virtues are indefensible, they mostly try to sneer instead.

Fuck PnP I say!

 

[AetherVagrant]

Fucking PnP leads to massive lead poisoning and papercuts.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Jesus fuck, the autists and the edgy hipsters attack again!

Hey guys I saw the light BG1 & 2 are the best game I've ever played!!! There's even a bald guy who talks about his hamster, how lolesque is that?

How about you go drown yourself in an outhouse? Fitting end to a shit poster.

No they didn't, and it is even more improved in IWDEE although still not perfect.

Bullshit. Plus, I would bet money that all the people complaining about pathfinding are mouthbreathing retards who never opened the config menu and thus never increased the number of search nodes. The path finding isn't perfect but it's certainly not some abomination.

Anyone knows a way of running BG/BG2 on an android tablet that doesn't involve buying Shidog's Enfucked Edition?

GemRB works well enough. There is no absolutely no reason to buy Trent's shit shovelware.

If you don't like the added NPCs just don't use them. The monk (and the annoying sorc) were kicked out within a few minutes. The wild mage and blackguard were definitely better designed than many of the original NPCs.

I have an even better idea, don't buy Beamdog crap in the first place? The games and the mods were doing just fine before Trent and his crew of inept assholes came to the scene. Oh hey, we'll charge idiots money as we steal modders work and put shitty blur filters in the game to call it HD and insert our fanfiction in it to ENHANCE it oh and hey let's update the GUI too while we're at it and introduce a million new bugs because our programmers are talentless hacks but hey, let's hire few of the modders for peanuts, that's a PR victory!

BG1 is fairly boring and vastly inferior to BG2. Disliking BG1 does not mean that you like shitty action games like Dragon Age.

BG1 is, in some aspects, better than BG2. I know it hurts your brain to actually think but compare open world to a linear tunnel - which is better and why?

Actually, even dragon age inquisition is way better than bg1.
bg1=oblivion of its time at best, one of the biggest harbinger of decline at worst.

Oh hey, another super edgy poster looking for his KKKredits. Perhaps go back to the playpen and keep playing with your My Little Pony dolls?

The game didn't just come out last week, and many of those bugs were not present in the originals.

You know what would make it easier for the modders? Updating the IESDP. Releasing Raph from his nda + non-compete so he can return to ToBEx. Letting Erephine fix 1pp v4 once and for all.

Even better, give PC players the option (just like the other platforms) for Beamdog's content to be optional.

You're a good guy, but you associate (and defend) assholes.

Exactly. I wonder why he keeps at it. A sane person would have either left Codex or stopped sucking Trent's cock months ago.

Never really understood the butthurt about firewine, it's like 3 minutes long and none of the fights are hard. The maze isn't really a maze and only has like 4-5 traps in it, it's better than the end game thief's practice course or whatever it's called and that is not optional but at that point in the game you are probably numb to the game and just powering through to the end.

The thief maze takes less than 5 minutes to go through.

Three words: respawning kobold commandos, lots and lots of them.

Or, if you spread your party out, the way you should do in a tight little dungeon, you won't have to suffer respawns because they only happen under Fog-of-war. So if you play sensibly, keeping most of your party back, while a thief scouts around, you won't have to deal with them more than once or twice.

But that's actually using your brain, something that is way too difficult to the Bioware crowd, of whom there are multiple examples in this very thread. Oh dear, a wilderness area that actually has some empty spaces? CAN'T HAVE THAT! AWESOME BUTTON TO THE RESCUE.

Seriously, most of you fucks should be banned and sent back to RPS "Hipster Central" where you obviously belong.

Oh and the comment about D&D games being published every year? Nice selective editing and leaving out of facts:
BG1 came out in 1998. In 1997, the D&D was Descent into Undermountain which was a massive flop and utter shit. In 1996 we had Birthright which was a buggy, shitty strategy game that also flopped as did the Dark Sun Online. In 1995 we had Ravenloft Stone Prophet which was a good game but not very successful commercially. In 1994 we had Menzoberranzan, of which I probably don't need to say anything. So yes, a D&D game came out every year - some years had two or three D&D themed games - but they certainly were not big hits like most Gold Box games had been, nor were they all high brow Codexian RPGs.

 

[Somberlain]

BG1 is fairly boring and vastly inferior to BG2. Disliking BG1 does not mean that you like shitty action games like Dragon Age.

BG1 is, in some aspects, better than BG2. I know it hurts your brain to actually think but compare open world to a linear tunnel - which is better and why?

Open world is cool if it has some worthwhile content in it, but BG1 has very little interesting stuff in its empty and boring world. If you like running around in the wilderness areas of BG1, that's fine, but I don't. Also, just because I think BG1 is vastly inferior to BG2 doesn't mean that every single aspect of BG1 is bad in my opinion.

 

[GarfunkeL]

BG1 has very little interesting stuff in its empty and boring world.

Ah yes, so unless something explodes on your face every 30 seconds, the game is boring and empty. Got it.

 

[Somberlain]

When there are whole areas that have absolutely nothing interesting in them, then the game is boring and empty, like BG1. If you are able to enjoy something like that, that's cool, you can probably enjoy a lot more games than I can.