Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[GarfunkeL]

Funnily enough, the things that you claims as strengths for Irenicus, I view as flaws.

Well, you can't simultaneously say (not meaning you, specifically) that Irenicus is out of sight and out of mind for hours and hours as a criticism, and then say the above about Sarevok.

But Sarevok is not presented as a personal nemesis of might and power. The first time you play BG, you can't be 100% that he's even after you, instead of Gorion, until the assassins start popping up. The blood connection isn't revealed until much later and Sarevok, logically, hides behind henchmen and lackeys as you uncover plot after plot, which start as entirely logical - profit from war, gain more influence and power in the region, only near the end becoming "personal" and attaining godhood.

Meanwhile, Irenicus is grandstanding at every opportunity and cackling about ultimate power but then you sort of ignore him for a long time because you need to collect money so you trek across the countryside.

 

[laclongquan]

Sarevok getting mentioned in Cloakwood mines letter, first. Meaning chapter 4-5? The first three chapters you chase all over the Coast for the Nashkel Mines, the Bandit Camps, etc...

Despite how you diss Irenicus, the man sure grind our faces on who he is and what he is. We know from the first moment that we need to kill this fucker for subject us to that dungeon and tortures. Oh, and messing with our sidekick(s) too.

BG2 feel more personal to player than 1.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah and that can be either a pro or a con, depending whether you prefer your heroic fantasy to be super personal or not.

 

[Gragt]

He's a suit of armor with a deep voice.

And a “CHARNAME, I am your brother!” moment in case something was missing!

The first time you play BG, you can't be 100% that he's even after you, instead of Gorion, until the assassins start popping up.

He plainly states that he is after you and only minds Gorion because he is in his way; the narration also insists on that, and the intro shows that he is hunting some people. It doesn’t take a brian surgeon to know that he wants to kill you even if you can’t yet fathom why. Besides why care about some secluded kid from Candlekeep in the first place?

Anyway they’re both comic-book-level villains, so there’s not much point looking for depth there. At least Irenicus is more memorable than the big bully in armour.

 

[Lilura]

The first time you play BG, you can't be 100% that he's even after you, instead of Gorion, until the assassins start popping up.

Have you even played BG1?

VA is part of it, but the real reason is that you can actually see decent writers honing their craft in BG2.

"Decent" isn't much of an accolade, you know... "honing their craft" - puhleese.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah, "I'm here to kill you now hand over you ward" "Nope" "I'll kill you all" at which point you run away and he, after killing Gorion, happily leaves. Why does he leave if he's after you and not Gorion? CHARNAME is literally 10 second walk away. That's not quite the same as "Oh, you have much untapped power, let me harvest it, enjoy the pain"-monologue at the start of BG2.

Anyway they’re both comic-book-level villains, so there’s not much point looking for depth there.

Well, that's certainly true.

 

[Lilura]

Yeah, "I'm here to kill you now hand over you ward" "Nope" "I'll kill you all" at which point you run away and he, after killing Gorion, happily leaves. Why does he leave if he's after you and not Gorion? CHARNAME is literally 10 second walk away.

Learn2abstract. How about, Charname ran off and hid in the bushes while Sarevok was contending with Gorion in the darkness of the night. Sarevok scratched his balls, then shrugged and walked off. Now whether you think that's plausible or not is irrelevant - Sarevok specifically asked for Gorion's ward, which is you. And the Chapter 1 introduction just before "Heya, it's me Imoen!" says the Armored Fiend was "after you, and you alone". Srsly..

 

[Lone Wolf]

Meanwhile, Irenicus is grandstanding at every opportunity and cackling about ultimate power but then you sort of ignore him for a long time because you need to collect money so you trek across the countryside

Who's 'you'? The player character? Everything the PC does is in pursuit of Irenicus, even if the player knowingly (meta-knowingly) steps off the critical path to do his own thing. How can this make Irenicus a weaker villain? And even off that critical path there's still plenty of integration happening with Irenicus in subsidiary quests/areas. The developers wanted a villain who was more, as laclongquan said, a personal nemesis than Sarevok, so they wrote one. I guess there are people out there who like the Sarevok approach. More power to them. But from the get-go, I've been saying Irenicus is the better realized character - a deeper character - with better writing, voice acting and game integration. I'm just not seeing how Sarevok can possibly 'win' on those counts. He's so incredibly forgettable. Whatever, you don't have to agree, as I said.

"Decent" isn't much of an accolade, you know... "honing their craft" - puhleese

I'm not comparing BG2 to the world's greatest works of literature, Lilura, but BG1. And there's a fairly clear trajectory in terms of the character writing, plot, pacing, scene etc. BG1 was Bioware's second game and first RPG. It was also Lukas Kristjanson's (lead writer, I believe) first serious game writer credit. People hone their craft by repetition and iteration. Hence 'honing their craft'.

Throwing away the context of these products makes the whole exercise a bit pointless.

 

[Lilura]

Lukas Kristjanson's

He doesn't have credit as lead in BG2.. are you saying he wrote Irenicus? Btw, what did you think of the writing in Durlag's Tower?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Actually, not entirely sure. There's a bit of conflicting information out there. The DA wiki states Kristjanson was lead on BG2, citing an rpgvault article that's no longer available. The Gibberlings 3 calls David Gaider the 'lead writer' here http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2fixpack/. IMDB has Kristjanson as 'writer' for both BG1 and BG2. Gaider's wiki entry said his first job with Bioware was 'providing designs' for BG2.

In any case, that writing staff is still together at the company, by and large.

The writing in Durlag's Tower? I'm trying to remember specifics and not a great deal is coming to mind. I liked it more than anything outside of the expansion, but BG1's writing as a whole was... not good.

 

[Lilura]

BG1 is written in a much stronger FRCS and Middle English tone, though. Now whether you like that or not, whatevs.

The actual credits for the game, don't mention Luke as lead in BG2 (only BG1).

BG2's writing wasn't good either, imo. The sequel lacks a consistent tone, felt like a mashup by several wannabes. They couldn't even come up with original riddles in Spellhold (I've played community-made mods for NWN with original riddles)..

 

[Xeon]

I thought the second dream of Irenecus with the woman and her inheritance was beautiful or something, that was the best part of the writing in BG2 I think.

I kinda don't understand the part of Irenecus being more personal to MC than Seravok. You find out Seravok is your brother and he at the start killed Gorion which was like your father figure or something, its kind similar to Irenecus kidnapping Imoen which is kind of a little sister or something.

 

[Grunker]

BG1 is written in a much stronger FRCS and Middle English tone, though.

BG1 has passages that could be taken straight from a sunday morning cartoon. ("Fastest dart thrower in the west"? "Sorry, we're siding with the druids, they got this great aloe vera balm, and my armor's really been chafin', ya know?" - there are tons of examples) To make a claim of a unified writing style in BG1 is ignoring everything that isn't on the crit path. So when you say:

The sequel lacks a consistent tone

You are blindfolding yourself to prove a wrong point. Both games have adequate writing for different reasons. BG2 has the better plot and the better villain. BG1 is much better at crafting the feeling of adventure and Forgotten Realmish light dashing.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Xeon, let me give you an example of what I meant (I won't speak for laclongquan):

In Season 4 of Supernatural, the two lead characters of the show (brothers) discover they have a third brother. This character is killed off in the same episode and never mentioned again (well, at least before the end of Season 5; no spoilers, jerks). Just because he was a biological (half) brother of the two leads, it didn't make him more compelling or more meaningful than dozens of other characters who played out similar roles in the first half of the series. The kinship was used as a minor detail to flesh out another character (the father) and provide further definition to Sam and Dean, the two brothers.

You discovering Sarevok is your 'brother' barely impacts the story in any real way. What does it change? The familiarity is artificial and meaningless. BG1's big reveal is that you are the child of the God of Murder. Sarevok is just the guy who wants to claim the throne and knock you off. Your 'familial' relationship plays no role, whatsoever. Whereas Irenicus takes Imoen, then both your souls, then your very humanity (or whatever-ty). He drives your relationship from the start to the finish. He manipulates you at every turn. He's not more 'personal' because you share a symbolic relationship; he's your true nemesis, using the primary meaning of the term ('the inescapable agent of someone's or something's downfall'). Sarevok's just competition...

 

[Ellef]

Installing SCS for BGT for the first time, and there's a fucktonne of multiple choice install options. Any particular options I should enable/disable for a moderately harder game, and less tedium?

 

[Grunker]

Installing SCS for BGT for the first time, and there's a fucktonne of multiple choice install options. Any particular options I should enable/disable for a moderately harder game, and less tedium?

It's a bit much going through the entire thing listing what I use/don't use. Maybe if you had specific questions I could help you?

Also, do you have the ReadMe open while installing? It details every option. You can ask here if there's doubt beyond that

 

[Ellef]

I could ask about the ramifications of most of them really.

I guess the big one is enemy mages and buffing.

Option 1: Mages are always allowed to cast spells instantly at the start of combat.
Option 2: Mages are allowed to cast spells instantly at the start of combat only when they are created near the PC
Option 3: Mages never cast spells instantly.
Option 4: Option 1 for BG1, option 2 for BG2.
Option 5- Mages use short-duration spells at the start of combat, but only if the difficulty is set to Hard or Insane.

Are these instant spells like having contingencies set up for all mages?

 

[Grunker]

Basically yes. Prebuffing evens the playing field between you and your opponents. If you don't prebuff, don't use that option. Otherwise, do. All Mages will use long-duration buffs regardless of what you choose. That options is just about spells with a shorter duration.

I recommend using the option if you're an advanced IE-player. The prebuff settings are part of the core difficulty experience from SCS, but they also make the game significantly harder.

 

[Ellef]

Alright, gone for the toughest option then. lt'll probably kick my arse, because i'm a fairly run-of-the-mill player, but that's part of the fun.

Would a triple-class level up too slowly in a 6 person party? I'm gonna need a fairly cheesey build to get through this I imagine, and I hate dual classing.

 

[Grunker]

Alright, gone for the toughest option then. lt'll probably kick my arse, because i'm a fairly run-of-the-mill player, but that's part of the fun.

Would a triple-class level up too slowly in a 6 person party? I'm gonna need a fairly cheesey build to get through this I imagine, and I hate dual classing.

1) If you're going with NPCs and the hardest version of SCS, consider the mod 'Level 1 NPCs'. Basically lets you tailor your NPCs.

2) Triple class: nah, it's totally viable.

On SCS, never be afraid to use new tactics or try spells you dismissed on previous runs, if you can't beat an encounter. My loadout for basic BG and SCS are completely different.

 

[Seari]

Triple class is way too slow and completely redundant for a full party.

I play with the no prebuffing option, but I limit myself on prebuffing as well. Mages instacasting short duration buffs is just silly to me and not enjoyable. They still prebuff stoneskin even if you choose the no prebuff option and they get sequencers/contingencies in BG2 anyways.

 

[Grunker]

Triple class is way too slow and completely redundant for a full party.

...what is "too slow"? A triple class is more than sustainable, as is multiple dual classers. And that's even if you remove the XP cap. There's plenty of XP in BG1.

Be aware that not allowing mages to prebuff leads to a much less challenging experience, which of course can be alleviated somewhat by not prebuffing yourself. Even then though, it's generally less challenging since mages are scripted to counteract your prebuffing with their AI anyway.

 

[MrMarbles]

When we're talking character comparisons (e.g. Sarevok v Irenicus), we're talking writing. I don't understand complaints about Jon Irenicus as a villain when compared to Sarevok. In terms of characterization, style, exposition method and interaction, the former is just a far more fleshed out and better realized villain.

I much prefer Sarevok as the antagonist, partly because in a way he is not the villain. He's just a placeholder. The real villain is the unknown force (Baal and the propagation of the prophecy) that drives him, the same force that drives the char. This is clear from the dream sequences; They are not so much about Sarevok, as about the char and the changes that the unknown force are bringing. (The sense of the enemy being within is the same as in PT, where TTO turns out to be an aspect of TNO himself).

Sarevok is badass, but in a sense he too is just another player in a greater game, and based on the information from Tamoko a pretty pathetic one at that. He is also being manipulated. That to me makes him a much more believable and interesting villain than Irenicus, who ticks all the usual fantasy grandstanding "I have been wronged and will take my revenge" boxes, and who acts on his own.

It's also a reason why I love the use of dream sequences, consistent use of the Baal/skull symbolism in the game and the end sequence. You get the sense that something bigger is going on, without having the whole storyline fleshed out immediately and shoved down your throat.

 

[Grunker]

I much prefer Darkspawn as the antagonist, partly because in a way they are not the villain. They're just a placeholder. The real villain is the unknown force (the archdemon) that drives then, the same force that drives the char. This is clear from the dream sequences; they are not so much about darkspawn, as about the char and the changes that the unknown force are bringing.

Also, anyone comparing Baldur's Gate's dream sequances, which are adequate plot hooks, to the brilliance of TNO's search for self, deserves to be ridiculed

 

[Tigranes]

Yep. You can basically fireball your way past half of BG in regular - in fact you can basically stock all your mages with evocation spells and even clerics/druids with damage-dealing spells. On SCS buff option - I tend to go for one of the 'medium' buff options and then limit my own buffing - and especially with spells like Dispel Magic revised (I recommend Spell Revisions also), you're often using a much wider complement.

I'm going through a Bgt/scs run now with 4 characters on Hard, reduced XP gain across the board (you gain far too much XP when you do everything, and do things like restore thieving skill XP gain into BG1 - 75% ensures that you do most things in BG1 and finish at the TOTSC xp cap). Very nice, careless means party wipe but basically nothing crazy unbeatable. I did have to wand-of-monster-summoning spam Aec'Letec, but I can never, ever figure out how his abilities work - there's one that basically puts on a countdown to explodey ghast-death, there's the hold gaze that lasts forever and is apparently unsaveable, etc.