Elder Scrolls The appeal of Skyrim

[Deleted Member 16721]

Witcher 3 - way deeper in the writing/lore department.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance - way deeper in systems, combat, writing, NPC behavior, etc.

ELEX - way deeper in exploration, quest C&C and depth.

Zelda: Breath of the Wild - way deeper in mechanics, world interaction, gameplay, combat, charm, atmosphere, etc.

New Vegas - way deeper in RPG mechanics, writing, C&C.

Apples and Oranges Porky. None of those games has 150+ handmade dungeons, the "go anywhere do anything" thing of Skyrim and so on. That's why game comparisons like that don't work, they don't account for the different ways the games are designed.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

BotW definitely has the go anywhere, do anything vibe, and is about 10000 times better than Skyrim in every single way. In fact, it plays like what Skyrim would be if it had talented developers instead of lobotimized Howard-Hines drones.

 

[Okagron]

has 150+ handmade dungeons,

Uh, what? Portions of layouts are repeated in dungeons often. There are caves where portions of it are the exact the same, same for castles. This "handmade dungeons" meme where people think Bethesda actually handcrafts their dungeon needs to die. They don't handcraft every dungeon, they make several generic layouts and then copy and paste them everywhere. Handcrafted dungeons means that every dungeons are 100% different from each other. Copy and pasting layouts is not handcrafting. Fucking puzzles are repeated for fuck sake.

And Skyrim is as shallow as a puddle. The majority of the locations lack any lore or world building, they are basically levels akin to Super Mario. They just exist for the player to walk in, kill generic mooks, loot and then leave. There's nothing to these locations. Its world has to be the most bland, generic, completely souless i have ever the displeasure of exploring. I literally don't remember 90% of it.

 

[Funposter]

None of those games has 150+ handmade dungeons

which are all just as bland, shitty and unimaginative as Oblivion's, a game which had 250 designed by a single person

 

[cretin]

has 150+ handmade dungeons,

Uh, what? Portions of layouts are repeated in dungeons often. There are caves where portions of it are the exact the same, same for castles. This "handmade dungeons" meme where people think Bethesda actually handcrafts their dungeon needs to die. They don't handcraft every dungeon, they make several generic layouts and then copy and paste them everywhere. Handcrafted dungeons means that every dungeons are 100% different from each other. Copy and pasting layouts is not handcrafting. Fucking puzzles are repeated for fuck sake.

And Skyrim is as shallow as a puddle. The majority of the locations lack any lore or world building, they are basically levels akin to Super Mario. They just exist for the player to walk in, kill generic mooks, loot and then leave. There's nothing to these locations. Its world has to be the most bland, generic, completely souless i have ever the displeasure of exploring. I literally don't remember 90% of it.

you need to take the fluentpill bro:
"just LARP!"
"just imagine a much better game!"
"if you cant imagine detailed fantasy worlds with a couple of toy figurines in your bedroom because you're not a child, thats a problem with you! its easy for me!"

 

[Funposter]

"just LARP!"

There's some merit to this argument, but eventually you're asking the player to extend themselves too far. Morrowind and Daggerfall both rely on the player to engage in some amount of LARPing, for slightly different reasons, but it's usually just the player having to imagine or interpret interactions which rely on abstract mechanics. The actual reality of "admiring" someone 16 times until they're your best friend, for instance. This is usually a deficiency of the gameplay systems, but the good aspects make up for it. In Skyrim, a game which features full voice acting, detailed animations and environments, NPC AI schedules, etc. the LARP aspect is no longer focused on making up for missing background details, but is put to the forefront of the experience. Companions questline only has six actual quests? Just do radiant quests and PRETEND that it's an extensive questline. Dungeons are all braindead and same-y? Just PRETEND that they're actually interesting. Gameplay systems don't put any restrictions on what the player can and cannot do? Just exercise some SELF RESTRAINT and PRETEND that the game has a functioning class system.

The first two are asking you to pretend that they take place in a genuinely living, breathing world. Skyrim is asking you to do the same thing, and it's an easier thing to ask, but then it's also asking you to pretend that it's an actual RPG or dungeon crawler.

 

[DalekFlay]

It's not Skyrim's fault though, it's short-sighted developers thinking they can copy what Bethesda does. Skyrim itself is good, the open world there is better than any other open world of modern releases (at least ones I've played, can't comment on all of them.) It's devs trying to cash in that's the problem.

Surprised you weren't retard-tagged out of existence, but I will say Bethesda know how to craft open worlds. Even most of their detractors eventually begrudgingly admit that. I have had a lot of problems with their gameplay decisions since Oblivion, but their open worlds are always interesting and fun to explore on a basic level. Other games ape their style but never make anything nearly as good world-wise, which is why open world games often feel like empty check-lists and scenery. That's why I love New Vegas so much, it took the good open world Bethesda often make and combined it with good other things... quest design, writing, RPG systems, etc. Not perfect of course, that engine is trash and the shooting is meh and whatnot, but so much better use of that world style.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Role-playing in TES games is fun, if you really let yourself become immersed and do it. You can roleplay any character you want and take on a personality in the game like a true RPG nerd. The games are built for that and it's fun to do. But as good as New Vegas is, it still is much different from the Skyrim style of open-world, both in positive and negative ways in my opinion. New Vegas had barely any dungeons worth exploring for example, and going anywhere met being met with instant death in some cases. I'm not arguing that that's a bad thing, just saying, they're different experiences. I love New Vegas but I also love Skyrim and the TES series. New Vegas is just excellent though and IMO most likely my favorite open-world ever next to Morrowind.

 

[luj1]

Surprised you weren't retard-tagged out of existence, but I will say Bethesda know how to craft open worlds.

They haven't been *crafting* anything since TES3, it's all industrialized algorithmic garbage...

 

[Okagron]

New Vegas had barely any dungeons worth exploring for example, and going anywhere met being met with instant death in some cases.

New Vegas dungeons actually had lore and world building attached to them. And, you know, actual different layouts. Skyrim is filled with incredibly generic dungeons that constantly repeat layouts for no reason. How can two natural caves have portions of their layouts that look exactly the same? Natural as in, nature made this cave, and two caves somehow happen to have portions of their layouts that look the same.

And without the sense of danger, the thing that keeps you on your toes while exploring, your world becomes artificial. It's literally a theme park. Skyrim's world might be a "different experience", but it's an objectively worse experience. Exploration needs the sense of danger to make it exciting, the removal of that sense of danger greatly diminishes the point of exploration.

 

[DalekFlay]

They haven't been *crafting* anything since TES3, it's all industrialized algorithmic garbage...

They generate a lot of the environment of course, but they also go in and add unique stuff like letters, environmental storytelling, dungeon narratives, whatever. Way more than most games of this type do.

 

[Funposter]

They haven't been *crafting* anything since TES3, it's all industrialized algorithmic garbage...

They generate a lot of the environment of course, but they also go in and add unique stuff like letters, environmental storytelling, dungeon narratives, whatever. Way more than most games of this type do.

The problem is that these elements very rarely offer anything other than an utterance of "oh that's neat", before the player moves on. As soon as the player has seen it once, the novelty wears off and it loses all value. This inane focus on enviornmental storytelling in every dungeon has led to a degredation in the quality and breadth of questlines, as the world the player inhabits moves ever closer to a theme park instead of something which feels, nominally, alive. It's the same problem with scripted conversations playing when the player first enters a town or village. They trick the player into thinking the world is alive or interesting, but then you see it again, and again, on repeat playthroughs. It makes the world feel MORE static, not less.

Eventually you come to the conclusion that players were never meant to create more than one character. They were supposed to experience literally everything that the game has to offer in a single playthrough, and then put it aside forever. This is why the player can complete every faction without requirements or restrictions. This is why the player can level every skill to 100 without a problem. This is why the Stormcloak and Imperial questlines are functionally identical. This is why quests can't provide multiple solutions, and why the player is FORCED to become a Werewolf during the Companions, etc. etc.

This is not a game where you can do anything. It is a game where you are expected to do everything.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Witcher 3 - way deeper in the writing/lore department.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance - way deeper in systems, combat, writing, NPC behavior, etc.

ELEX - way deeper in exploration, quest C&C and depth.

Zelda: Breath of the Wild - way deeper in mechanics, world interaction, gameplay, combat, charm, atmosphere, etc.

New Vegas - way deeper in RPG mechanics, writing, C&C.

Apples and Oranges Porky. None of those games has 150+ handmade dungeons, the "go anywhere do anything" thing of Skyrim and so on. That's why game comparisons like that don't work, they don't account for the different ways the games are designed.

Skyrim doesn't have 150 "handmade" dungeons. All dungeons there are the same boring corridors with basic enemies and 0 rewards, unlike Zelda:BOW, which in fact does have 100+ unique handmade dungeons.

 

[Yosharian]

I mean, BoW's 'dungeons' aren't really dungeons.

 

[DalekFlay]

The problem is that these elements very rarely offer anything other than an utterance of "oh that's neat", before the player moves on. As soon as the player has seen it once, the novelty wears off and it loses all value. This inane focus on enviornmental storytelling in every dungeon has led to a degredation in the quality and breadth of questlines, as the world the player inhabits moves ever closer to a theme park instead of something which feels, nominally, alive. It's the same problem with scripted conversations playing when the player first enters a town or village. They trick the player into thinking the world is alive or interesting, but then you see it again, and again, on repeat playthroughs. It makes the world feel MORE static, not less.

Eventually you come to the conclusion that players were never meant to create more than one character. They were supposed to experience literally everything that the game has to offer in a single playthrough, and then put it aside forever. This is why the player can complete every faction without requirements or restrictions. This is why the player can level every skill to 100 without a problem. This is why the Stormcloak and Imperial questlines are functionally identical. This is why quests can't provide multiple solutions, and why the player is FORCED to become a Werewolf during the Companions, etc. etc.

This is not a game where you can do anything. It is a game where you are expected to do everything.

Most people don't play games over and over, so I'm not sure they'd even take that as an insult. Also while I have a lot of issues with Bethesda's games... again, I'm saying they do one thing really well and that's it... I wouldn't say this is really a problem, IMO. Games designed around replaying over and over mostly feel really generic and mechanics-focused, like roguelites and platformers. I'd rather a more crafted world than not for an RPG. The way to do replayability is by making the classes/factions/choices feel different and meaningful.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Witcher 3 - way deeper in the writing/lore department.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance - way deeper in systems, combat, writing, NPC behavior, etc.

ELEX - way deeper in exploration, quest C&C and depth.

Zelda: Breath of the Wild - way deeper in mechanics, world interaction, gameplay, combat, charm, atmosphere, etc.

New Vegas - way deeper in RPG mechanics, writing, C&C.

Apples and Oranges Porky. None of those games has 150+ handmade dungeons, the "go anywhere do anything" thing of Skyrim and so on. That's why game comparisons like that don't work, they don't account for the different ways the games are designed.

Dude, this is literally what we mean when we say Skyrim is a mile wide and an inch deep. “Sure, it lacks the depth of these other games, but you can’t really compare them because the world is so big!” You’re making our argument for us. We don’t care that the world is big if nothing in it is particularly compelling.

My problem with BGS games in a nutshell: sure, you can go anywhere and do “anything” (as long as anything involves killing, stealing or crafting), but why? They never give you much reason to do anything. Call me old fashioned, but I like it when my media has a fucking hook. If I want to aimlessly wander around a beautiful environment, I can just go to Central Park.

 

[DalekFlay]

That sounds more like an argument against open world design, rather than BGS in particular.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

That sounds more like an argument against open world design, rather than BGS in particular.

Meh, I never had this problem with New Vegas or any Piranha Bytes game or Kingdom Come or even Breath of the Wild. Those games all have hooks. BGS is uniquely bad at crafting compelling content. It’s not a priority for them.

 

[Doktor Best]

That sounds more like an argument against open world design, rather than BGS in particular.

There are many openworld rpgs that do not sacrifice so much for the sole purpose of creating absolute freedom.

You can even argue that the way Bethesda creates their open world (with levelscaling, shallow gamesystems in order to avoid gating content, mainplot as an absolute afterthought, no faction gating, simple quest design with very few C&C) in such a way that as a player, you even have less meaningful choice than in other games.

I mean in Gothic or New Vegas you can choose to visit high level zones earlier than anticipated. This also means you can choose to increase the challenge level significantly if you want to do so. You cannot do that when every enemy is scaled to your level. Also, presenting the player with a barrier of any sort even creates choice in itself since the player now has to act in order to cross this barrier. A bouncer wants a significant amount of money from you so you can enter a specific building but you are piss poor? Now you can choose to pickpocket people in the town, wait for the night to rob the jeweler, visit that dungeon you've found earlier but didnt explore yet, learn a craftsmanship and sell what you produce, or go to the local wizard and sell off magic items you dont need right now and so on and so forth.

If the developer goes out of his way to take all those barriers out of the game in order to create absolute freedom, then sure, you can go everywhere and do anything. But it doesnt really feel like you make interesting choices while doing so.

 

[DalekFlay]

Meh, I never had this problem with New Vegas or any Piranha Bytes game or Kingdom Come or even Breath of the Wild. Those games all have hooks. BGS is uniquely bad at crafting compelling content. It’s not a priority for them.

I mean if you're saying "they need to be better RPGs" then okay, that's pretty much what I was saying too. Your post read different to me, more as a call for more direction and narrative structure.

If the developer goes out of his way to take all those barriers out of the game in order to create absolute freedom, then sure, you can go everywhere and do anything. But it doesnt really feel like you make interesting choices while doing so.

The whole "go anywhere anytime" thing pretty much requires some scaling. Not to the insane levels seen in Oblivion, but some. We've had the debate on here a thousand times about how much that freedom is worth losing in risk/reward systems and whatnot. I personally prefer the Gothic/New Vegas style as you do, and again New Vegas is an amazing game IMO because it takes the Bethesda open world style and makes a real RPG out of it, but for Joe Sixpack the "open world" promise is tarnished by not actually being able to walk in whatever direction strikes your fancy. Discussions about Bethesda always need to come back around to them being extremely mass-market in the "RPG" space. They know what people like us want, they just also know where the money is.

 

[JarlFrank]

150+ handmade dungeons

And yet every single one of those dungeons has the exact same shape. A long tube with minor side tracks that loops around at the end.

Even a dungeon called Labyrinthian, which sounds like it would be... you know... labyrinthian, and which appeared as one of the main dungeon in TES Arena and there it actually was, you know, labyrinthian, ended up being mostly linear in Skyrim. The tiny hedge maze in my local park is more labyrinthian than than fucking dungeon.

Skyrim's dungeon design is atrocious.

 

[JarlFrank]

If the developer goes out of his way to take all those barriers out of the game in order to create absolute freedom, then sure, you can go everywhere and do anything. But it doesnt really feel like you make interesting choices while doing so.

You can go everywhere, yes, but not really do anything because there's nothing to do.

In those barrier examples you proposed, like the bouncer needing a bribe to let you in, there's an obvious thing to do: find a way past the bouncer, be it by earning money in various ways, sneaking in through the backdoor, etc.

But if there is no obstacle to overcome, there's nothing to actually do, only places to go. "Doing" is either overcoming obstacles or making choices. And when there are no obstacles cause everything is scaled and open, and there are no choices because everything is linear, you're not actually doing anything. You're just going places, without the doing.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Dude, this is literally what we mean when we say Skyrim is a mile wide and an inch deep. “Sure, it lacks the depth of these other games, but you can’t really compare them because the world is so big!” You’re making our argument for us. We don’t care that the world is big if nothing in it is particularly compelling.

My problem with BGS games in a nutshell: sure, you can go anywhere and do “anything” (as long as anything involves killing, stealing or crafting), but why? They never give you much reason to do anything. Call me old fashioned, but I like it when my media has a fucking hook. If I want to aimlessly wander around a beautiful environment, I can just go to Central Park.

Well millions of gamers would disagree with you. There's a reason the game has sold a bajillion copies, many of us like roaming around an open-world and LARPing our characters. There was plenty of compelling content in Skyrim IMO and the game itself, the roaming and exploring was compelling too. That's why many gamers play it for hundreds of hours, myself included.

If the game wasn't so popular you wouldn't see so many memes and vocal minorities shouting about it. The game is excellent at what it does, and no other company can quite pull off what BGS does with their games. There's a reason for its popularity.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

And yet every single one of those dungeons has the exact same shape. A long tube with minor side tracks that loops around at the end.

Even a dungeon called Labyrinthian, which sounds like it would be... you know... labyrinthian, and which appeared as one of the main dungeon in TES Arena and there it actually was, you know, labyrinthian, ended up being mostly linear in Skyrim. The tiny hedge maze in my local park is more labyrinthian than than fucking dungeon.

Skyrim's dungeon design is atrocious.

They're still interesting to explore, even if they are mainly corridors with some side paths. All of the dungeons are unique enough that no other game has done what BGS has done with them. Like the dungeon design or not, how many open-world RPGs have 150+ handmade dungeons? Dwemer ruins, barrows, caves, mines - the game has a ton of optional and unique side dungeon diving.

 

[Okagron]

Well millions of gamers would disagree with you. There's a reason the game has sold a bajillion copies, many of us like roaming around an open-world and LARPing our characters. There was plenty of compelling content in Skyrim IMO and the game itself, the roaming and exploring was compelling too. That's why many gamers play it for hundreds of hours, myself included.

If the game wasn't so popular you wouldn't see so many memes and vocal minorities shouting about it. The game is excellent at what it does, and no other company can quite pull off what BGS does with their games. There's a reason for its popularity.

You seriously used the "popularity" "argument", popularity does not equal quality. And the game isn't "excellent" at what it does and you haven't proven why. You just claimed it does with no evidence.

Also the hilarity of you calling someone else a "decline enabler" in another thread and you are defending some of the biggest cases of decline.

They're still interesting to explore, even if they are mainly corridors with some side paths. All of the dungeons are unique enough that no other game has done what BGS has done with them. Like the dungeon design or not, how many open-world RPGs have 150+ handmade dungeons? Dwemer ruins, barrows, caves, mines - the game has a ton of optional and unique side dungeon diving.

You mean, copy and pasting layouts and those being extremely generic? Dude, everyone can do it. Everyone can litter a big empty open map with generic caves and dungeons. The reason other devs don't do it because they know that's atrocious design. They know having a bunch of generic caves and dungeons is lazy design if they have no point or purpose in its existence. Like someone said above, the majority of the content in Skyrim has no hook or something to compel the player.

And you are still calling them handmade when people have explained why they are not handmade.