Indie That Which Rises [Grimdark fantasy x Cosmic Horror]

[Tyranicon]

I think another problem besides mechanical difficulty is the relative lack of things to do in BB's late game. A lot of your important decisions in the game are frontloaded. I wouldn't go so far as to say late game is boring, but it does run out of steam a bit.

So instead of creating a game when the average player loses interest 10 hours in, we want something that keeps them going. I like the roguelike model of discovery where new content is being introduced even to veteran players.

Late game, besides the crisis, you would:

• Hunt for named weapons
• Visit Legendary locations with some epic encounters (library, abandoned hut, ...)
• Hunt for Legendary beasts like the Kraken and Jirok.
• Dynamic economy allow cities to build new shops/buildings.
• Do caravan missions toward citadels to buy named gear.

Legends adds Legendary monsters for most types

• White Wolves, Rock Unholds, Redback spider, Skin ghoul, etc.
• Monsters champions.
• More weapons types
• A lot of perks so a lot of different build to experiment
• More recipes for potions and armor attachments so you'd hunt lindwurms, stolwurms and other legendary beasts

For me, the bare minimum is 20 hours if the game doesn't waste your time with tedious/sluggish management tasks.

Wait, Legends is an overhaul mod and not a DLC, right? I vaguely remember downloading it.

I'm bad at explaining things, but I'll give it a try on why I think endgame content is a design issue. Obviously the Battle Brothers sold very well and I'm some no-name shmuck, so grain of salt.

I think the issue is that the lategame opens up content that is very different than what is introduced in the beginning. For the average player, you'll notice what appears to be a lot of side content pop up, but your bread and butter of taking on contracts, traveling to different cities, etc, doesn't see a huge change.

There is a lack of motivation to keep progressing simply for more equipment. You can't take over towns, you can't build a stronghold (there is a nice mod tho), you can't heavily influence factions to do things (like a real mercenary company historically could), etc.

 

[Serus]

I think another problem besides mechanical difficulty is the relative lack of things to do in BB's late game. A lot of your important decisions in the game are frontloaded. I wouldn't go so far as to say late game is boring, but it does run out of steam a bit.

So instead of creating a game when the average player loses interest 10 hours in, we want something that keeps them going. I like the roguelike model of discovery where new content is being introduced even to veteran players.

Late game, besides the crisis, you would:

• Hunt for named weapons
• Visit Legendary locations with some epic encounters (library, abandoned hut, ...)
• Hunt for Legendary beasts like the Kraken and Jirok.
• Dynamic economy allow cities to build new shops/buildings.
• Do caravan missions toward citadels to buy named gear.

Legends adds Legendary monsters for most types

• White Wolves, Rock Unholds, Redback spider, Skin ghoul, etc.
• Monsters champions.
• More weapons types
• A lot of perks so a lot of different build to experiment
• More recipes for potions and armor attachments so you'd hunt lindwurms, stolwurms and other legendary beasts

For me, the bare minimum is 20 hours if the game doesn't waste your time with tedious/sluggish management tasks.

Wait, Legends is an overhaul mod and not a DLC, right? I vaguely remember downloading it.

I'm bad at explaining things, but I'll give it a try on why I think endgame content is a design issue. Obviously the Battle Brothers sold very well and I'm some no-name shmuck, so grain of salt.

I think the issue is that the lategame opens up content that is very different than what is introduced in the beginning. For the average player, you'll notice what appears to be a lot of side content pop up, but your bread and butter of taking on contracts, traveling to different cities, etc, doesn't see a huge change.

There is a lack of motivation to keep progressing simply for more equipment. You can't take over towns, you can't build a stronghold (there is a nice mod tho), you can't heavily influence factions to do things (like a real mercenary company historically could), etc.

But
a) You said that more content is planned for your game than in BB. You have more possibilities for adding late game content. You gave examples for bb yourself. So it seems to me that the decision doesn't really come from inability or lack of ideas to make late game interesting but simply from wanting to do the short game + upgrades between games. Which is ok, as i said, i'm waiting to be positively surprised.

b) You are right that BB becomes stale if you play too long, but sure as hell doesn't to that in 5 hours. An average player in 5 hours will be, what? In mid game, he only started to fight the toughest enemies, getting named items, trying new builds, doing special locations, the company is still far from "done". And he has the opportunity to actually play with the company and bros he trained. And with the mechanics that the game has to offer. And then after another 10 hours, when he did the things I mentioned, it might start getting stale. Much longer than 5 hours.
On the other hand in 5 hours, i fear, you barely have time to use the mechanics of the game and enjoy the results unless those mechanics are very simple. We'll see.
Did i mention that i am a pessimist but i do accept that optimists are sometimes right?

 

[Tyranicon]

But
a) You said that more content is planned for your game than in BB. You have more possibilities for adding late game content. You gave examples for bb yourself. So it seems to me that the decision doesn't really come from inability or lack of ideas to make late game interesting but simply from wanting to do the short game + upgrades between games. Which is ok, as i said, i'm waiting to be positively surprised.

b) You are right that BB becomes stale if you play too long, but sure as hell doesn't to that in 5 hours. An average player in 5 hours will be, what? In mid game, he only started to fight the toughest enemies, getting named items, trying new builds, doing special locations, the company is still far from "done". And he has the opportunity to actually play with the company and bros he trained. And with the mechanics that the game has to offer. And then after another 10 hours, when he did the things I mentioned, it might start getting stale. Much longer than 5 hours.
On the other hand in 5 hours, i fear, you barely have time to use the mechanics of the game and enjoy the results unless those mechanics are very simple. We'll see.
Did i mention that i am a pessimist but i do accept that optimists are sometimes right?

I wouldn't get too attached to the five hour estimate. That'll likely change once we get into the real meat of development, and the comparisons to BB will likely change too as the differences emerge.

But yes, I'm not sure if this formula will work, it's very much an experiment. We'll know more once the alpha demo is out and we get some feedback.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I think the issue is that the lategame opens up content that is very different than what is introduced in the beginning. For the average player, you'll notice what appears to be a lot of side content pop up, but your bread and butter of taking on contracts, traveling to different cities, etc, doesn't see a huge change.

There is a lack of motivation to keep progressing simply for more equipment. You can't take over towns, you can't build a stronghold (there is a nice mod tho), you can't heavily influence factions to do things (like a real mercenary company historically could), etc.

You're right about some conquest lacking, most players want to be able to lead a faction and manage cities (if it's well made and easy to use, garbage kingdom management is just a downgrade).

A mod allow to build strongholds (Stronghold) and yes, Legends is a mod.

But making a game attracting so many modders and for so long means you did something right.
Without mods and mainly legends and compatible submods, I wouldn't have played BB more than 40/50 hours over the course of several years.

5 hours playthrough is a small scale rogue-like, I hope it works and your game sells well but I'm not optimistic.

 

[Tyranicon]

Screenshots of dialogue screens. Probably won't have that much dialogue, but we'll see.

 

[Harthwain]

Screenshots of dialogue monologue screens.

Fixed.

 

[Tyranicon]

Screenshots of dialogue monologue screens.

Fixed.

You're not wrong, text is from the NPC background dialogue option. Sometimes it looks a bit strange if there's only a single line of text, but I don't think I'll waste the time in making the dialogue box autofit the text.

 

[Harthwain]

You're not wrong, text is from the NPC background dialogue option. Sometimes it looks a bit strange if there's only a single line of text, but I don't think I'll waste the time in making the dialogue box autofit the text.

I would shorten the sentences and make them into descriptions from the narrator's point of view, if you really want some background exposition for the characters. Their first-person monologues end up being too verbose for the kind of information they are meant to convey.

 

[Tyranicon]

You're not wrong, text is from the NPC background dialogue option. Sometimes it looks a bit strange if there's only a single line of text, but I don't think I'll waste the time in making the dialogue box autofit the text.

I would shorten the sentences and make them into descriptions from the narrator's point of view, if you really want some background exposition for the characters. Their first-person monologues end up being too verbose for the kind of information they are meant to convey.

Hmm, maybe that is a good idea, but this isn't a mandatory piece of dialogue, it's hidden away in dialogue options under [>Tell me more about you] so I would assume anyone who clicks that is interested in a monologue.

 

[Anonymous Wife Scholar]

Thank you Tyranicon anon! Good strong wifes game developer friend anon! This does give me maximum soreness anon! It does!

 

[Zizka]

We picked out the first three patrons for the demo. Their unique gameplay mechanics will be more limited in the demo.

Spoiler

I’m wondering about something. Your 2D artist is certainly competent. Is there a reason you don’t stick to 2D art? The 3D isn’t on the same level and will suffer from comparisons. I’m put off by some 3D models (especially the faces) but would really dig 2D art. 2D also ages a lot better than 3D. I’ve noticed in your other games you’ll use 3D faces for the character portraits as opposed to drawings or paintings which doesn’t play in your favour since the faces are not detailed enough to be zoomed on.

Battle Brothers did without as is doing nicely, even with characters without bodies and very little animation. I was there at TIG forum when the game started out. To me, it’s indie deign done right: know what your resources are and make the most out of it.

Resource wise, creating a new 3D model is more taxing than a simple 2D representation. Slay the Spire isn’t a good looking game but it shows what you need to see. Indie games can’t really compete on the 3D level with bigger names, why not take the 2D route?

 

[Background Character]

Hey man, haven't really been on the Codex the last few weeks/months but I see you changed the game from a 40k fangame to an actual "proper" game, I guess it was for legal reasons. Still looks great and I am looking forward to it

 

[Joyvankek]

The concept of actually playing as cult, is not done enough. I liked the original concept of grim drak sci-fi/fantasy more, that said the concept of the game's still interesting to me, so I will check it out when it will come out or when the demo will be publicly available.

 

[Harthwain]

Hmm, maybe that is a good idea, but this isn't a mandatory piece of dialogue, it's hidden away in dialogue options under [>Tell me more about you] so I would assume anyone who clicks that is interested in a monologue.

Sure, the player could be interested in learning more about a character (or is simply wishing to exhaust all options. I know I would), but it is very dangerous to assume it means you don't have to take care about how you shape that extra content simply because it isn't mandatory for the player to read it.

 

[santino27]

My advice: ignore the advice from everyone in this thread (including me) and make your own game.

 

[Zizka]

Systematically disregarding feedback from your potential user base is about the worst thing a dev could ever do. Disagreeing with feedback is fine but to automatically disregard any other viewpoint as if we’re the only ones to have good ideas is simply utterly asinine.

Hell truly is paved with good intentions.

 

[Tyranicon]

I’m wondering about something. Your 2D artist is certainly competent. Is there a reason you don’t stick to 2D art? The 3D isn’t on the same level and will suffer from comparisons.

Ah the answer for this is simple: we license the 2D art and don't have that artist on contract, while the 3D art is done completely in-house.

Hey man, haven't really been on the Codex the last few weeks/months but I see you changed the game from a 40k fangame to an actual "proper" game, I guess it was for legal reasons. Still looks great and I am looking forward to it

Legal reasons weren't the main factor, although it was definitely something taken into consideration. We just wanted a fantasy setting game in our IP, which we can control more easily.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Systematically disregarding feedback from your potential user base is about the worst thing a dev could ever do. Disagreeing with feedback is fine but to automatically disregard any other viewpoint as if we’re the only ones to have good ideas is simply utterly asinine.

Hell truly is paved with good intentions.

The only kind of feedback you should disregard out of hand is people taking offense. Don't be fooled, people take offense as a form of sabotage out of spite or to reduce competition, not to improve the quality of your game.

 

[Serus]

Tyranicon
Do me and all "almost blind" people a favour. Make fonts big either by default or by options (that works well). In some games you can increase the font by say even 200% but then they don't fit in the screen or some parts of ui doesn't. I mean if you have time for such trivialities. The fonts don't look small on those "dialogue" screens but it is much worse on some other ones you posted earlier.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Tyranicon
Do me and all "almost blind" people a favour. Make fonts big either by default or by options (that works well). In some games you can increase the font by say even 200% but then they don't fit in the screen or some parts of ui doesn't. I mean if you have time for such trivialities. The fonts don't look small on those "dialogue" screens but it is much worse on some other ones you posted earlier.

Better yet, implement full voice acting.

 

[Tyranicon]

Tyranicon
Do me and all "almost blind" people a favour. Make fonts big either by default or by options (that works well). In some games you can increase the font by say even 200% but then they don't fit in the screen or some parts of ui doesn't. I mean if you have time for such trivialities. The fonts don't look small on those "dialogue" screens but it is much worse on some other ones you posted earlier.

Yeah, it's a personal pet peeve of mine when text is super small and there's no option to make it bigger. I think my dev partner is standardizing font size to 24pt (dialogue screens), which is fairly large. 20pt in some cases, and nothing should be below 18pt... unless we don't want you to actually see it.

Better yet, implement full voice acting.

Yeah lol no. Even if I don't think voice acting was decline or had the budget for it, I still don't need all that extra work. There may be some very limited voice acting.

 

[JarlFrank]

Did you think long and hard about the game's title? Because it doesn't inspire confidence.

Reminds me of "That Which Sleeps"...

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Did you think long and hard about the game's title? Because it doesn't inspire confidence.

Reminds me of "That Which Sleeps"...

No no no this is perfect. That which Rises.
Geddit?

Spoiler

 

[Tyranicon]

Did you think long and hard about the game's title? Because it doesn't inspire confidence.

Reminds me of "That Which Sleeps"...

No no no this is perfect. That which Rises.
Geddit?

Spoiler

Can 100% confirm my dev partner picked the name for the pun and not in relation to That Which Sleeps.

Speaking of the latter, did it release yet? I remember it being more of a god game than a RPG too.

 

[JarlFrank]

Speaking of the latter, did it release yet?

See, that's why the association doesn't inspire confidence...