Indie That Which Rises [Grimdark fantasy x Cosmic Horror]

[Tyranicon]

So we're finalizing stuff for the alpha build, and we'll probably have enough for demo in a month or two. My part in this (writing and mechanics) is already mostly done, and I think there's a lot in here that appeals to the codex school of RPG enjoyers.

On a very basic level, it's like Battle Brothers, but more content.

• Settlements
  • A lot of interactivity. Beyond the basic Trade, Recruit, Mission, etc options, you can also attempt to corrupt, raid or conquer settlements.
  • Most major settlements will have a Leader, who can be charmed or assassinated.
  • Settlements can be conquered and player-controlled, with some limited management options.
• Non-player forces
  • Beyond the basic bandits, caravans and faction mobs, there will be other non-player forces traveling in the world. Knightly orders will spring up to check your expansion, heroes will gather at taverns and go on quests, the Traveler's Guild will conduct rituals to counter your otherworldly influence.
• Faction mechanics
  • There are a number of factions of differing sizes. From the Royal Court to the noble houses, mercenary companies and bandits.
    
  • Factions can be corrupted and eventually controlled by the player.
  • You can set factions against one another.
• Player chargen
  • The player character is an Envoy of a nightmarish Primordial being.
  • Chargen consists of choosing background (starting bonuses and equipment), Skills, starting faction bonuses, and the Primordial you worship (basically your player class, different Primordials have different patron powers).
• Player retinue
  • Your retinue is a small army that acts as your bodyguard, court and congregation. Comprised of human cultists and monstrous abominations, they will be your primary fighting force.
  • Instead of Hit Points being some nebulous indicator of health, in this game they indicate manpower, as you recruit units of fighting men/monsters instead of companions.
  • Units reduced to zero Hit Points are wiped out and permadead (You can save scum them back if you're a pleb).
    
  • If your character's unit (the Envoy's personal bodyguard) is wiped out, game over (go back to previous save, or just delete all your saves if you want to larp an ironman mode).
• Skill trees
  • They exist.
• Game length
  • Much shorter than my 40hr long rpgs. Designed to encourage multiple different runs with different Primordials and experimentation.
  • Each run will be about 5 hours, give or take? Mostly because of below:
• Difficulty
  • Game is going to be hard as balls. Both in combat and on the overworld strategic layer.
    
  • An overarching AI acts as the most malicious DM you've ever had.
  • Actions you take will generate Notoriety. High enough Notoriety means that factions begin to notice you and your heretical ways.
  • The factions will declare Holy Wars on you, heroes will set out to banish your cthulhus, knightly orders will seek out and purge your hidden temple.
  • Because of the above, your run may reach such a fail state where it's better if you start a new playthrough.
    
  • Some minor roguelike features that give you new skills over subsequent playthroughs. Optional.

Will add this to OP.

 

[Sunri]

I hate hard porn games, I play them with one hand and horny mind!

 

[Tyranicon]

We picked out the first three patrons for the demo. Their unique gameplay mechanics will be more limited in the demo.

Spoiler

 

[Storyfag]

You *could* get away with using actual Cthulhu Mythos beings, I think. Aren't they Public Domain?

 

[Berengar]

But now that you mention that the porn elements are completely optional, I find it strange, as most games with porn as a focus tend to intertwine that element with the gameplay at large.

That's because those are porn games, I just happen to make games with porn in it.

Personally I find games with porn as the main focus to be invariably cringy. I mean, porn devs know where their money comes from and they make a hell of a lot more than me, so it's clearly working.

I make RPGs. If I have a lot of gratuitous violence in my games (and I do) I don't see why I can't have some gratuitous sex too.

As someone who has no problem with sex and nudity in games, but doesn't find games about JUST sex and nudity remotely appealing, this is very refreshing to hear. Huge respect for your philosophy here, Tyranicon.

 

[Tyranicon]

You *could* get away with using actual Cthulhu Mythos beings, I think. Aren't they Public Domain?

Yeah, they are public domain and plenty of other IPs use them wholesale. I don't think we will just because of personal preference (mostly because the Primordials in this game are significantly different from mythos entities).

 

[Storyfag]

mostly because the Primordials in this game are significantly different from mythos entities

With Not!Cthulhu and Not!Nyarlathotep up there, you had masterfully misdirected me into thinking otherwise.

 

[Tyranicon]

mostly because the Primordials in this game are significantly different from mythos entities

With Not!Cthulhu and Not!Nyarlathotep up there, you had masterfully misdirected me into thinking otherwise.

Oh I'm definitely taking advantage of some aesthetic and thematic similarities, but the cosmology is different, and so are the Primordials' motivations. Mythos beings tend to lean towards cosmic indifference, whereas the Primordials in this game are highly motivated to escape their null dimension and humans are in the way.

 

[Haba]

This thread is a wild trip.

 

[santino27]

Wishlisted. FWIW, you or the lead dev should update Steam with the new images/style (which I vastly prefer to the old stuff).

At this point, I'm waiting on 3 Tyranicon or Tyranicon-adjacent games.

 

[Tyranicon]

At this point, I'm waiting on 3 Tyranicon or Tyranicon-adjacent games.

Yeah I know I said I like to be busy but wtf. At least Memoirs is set to be completed by this summer. Otherwise, That Which Rises is looking like it will be coming out before my concept phase vampire game.

 

[Tyranicon]

Decided to extend the setting and human culture to norse/slavic/mongol. Not only to produce the most chad race of men who ever lived, but also so I can incorporate mongolian throat singing and norwegian viking ballads into the game.

 

[Harthwain]

Is it possible to give them sharp lower canine teeth to amplify the impression of their ferocious nature?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Decided to extend the setting and human culture to norse/slavic/mongol. Not only to produce the most chad race of men who ever lived, but also so I can incorporate mongolian throat singing and norwegian viking ballads into the game.

Crom is pleased and ignores you from his mountain.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Alternative game mode: Play as a knightly order

Stand against the encroaching darkness and purge the heretics from your motherland. Unlike the envoys of the Primordials, there is no inhuman force to empower you. If you should prevail against the might of the ancients, it will be by your strong sword arm and sheer will alone.

This is the game mode I want.

 

[Darth Canoli]

The new graphic design is great.

One thing that bothers me is the 5 hours long playthrough and you pretending the game has way more content than Battle Brothers...
The 2 don't really go together.

And yes, you'll tell me it's meant to be replayed but a 5 hours long game is meant for casual and hipsters whom hate games but this once, they'll be able to brag about completing one.

 

[Tyranicon]

The new graphic design is great.

One thing that bothers me is the 5 hours long playthrough and you pretending the game has way more content than Battle Brothers...
The 2 don't really go together.

And yes, you'll tell me it's meant to be replayed but a 5 hours long game is meant for casual and hipsters whom hate game but this once, they'll be able to brag about completing one.

My dev partner is interested in experimenting with the roguelite model of progression, and especially what we've seen in Hades. So while a skilled player can certainly achieve a victory screen in one single run, it will be very difficult.

The point is to encourage multiple runs with different primordials, unlocking new content/skills for future runs. The issue is if that works for this kind of RPG and longer average run times.

Personally, I found mid to late game Battle Brothers to be much less interesting than early game, as by then you usually have a solid core of fighters to steamroll through the rest of the game. I think similar games will run into the same problem and this is to address that.

Whether or not it succeeds will probably depend on quality of design. But hey, at least we're trying something new.

 

[Anonymous Wife Scholar]

Tyranicon Give me cute wifes!

 

[Darth Canoli]

Personally, I found mid to late game Battle Brothers to be much less interesting than early game, as by then you usually have a solid core of fighters to steamroll through the rest of the game. I think similar games will run into the same problem and this is to address that.

But a Battle Brothers run is way longer than 5 hours, just getting through the first crisis takes probably about 25-30 hours.
The DLC added a lot of content, be it gear, events, Boss encounters, Legendary locations, new starting backgrounds, new bros types, new potions, the bestiary is not great but good enough (Legends improved it) ...

And then mods (Legends, Magic Origins) add a shitload of content and mid to very late game challenges.
Stronghold allow you to build 3 cities you'll control.
PTR adds even more perks for you and your enemies.
They're all compatible.

Is your game going to support mods? (and if so attract modders?)

 

[Serus]

The new graphic design is great.

One thing that bothers me is the 5 hours long playthrough and you pretending the game has way more content than Battle Brothers...
The 2 don't really go together.

And yes, you'll tell me it's meant to be replayed but a 5 hours long game is meant for casual and hipsters whom hate game but this once, they'll be able to brag about completing one.

My dev partner is interested in experimenting with the roguelite model of progression, and especially what we've seen in Hades. So while a skilled player can certainly achieve a victory screen in one single run, it will be very difficult.

The point is to encourage multiple runs with different primordials, unlocking new content/skills for future runs. The issue is if that works for this kind of RPG and longer average run times.

Personally, I found mid to late game Battle Brothers to be much less interesting than early game, as by then you usually have a solid core of fighters to steamroll through the rest of the game. I think similar games will run into the same problem and this is to address that.

Whether or not it succeeds will probably depend on quality of design. But hey, at least we're trying something new.

You need to go trough 1 or 2 crisis to get to the point of steamrolling late game content on legendary difficulty unless you are a tactical mastermind. But your average player probably wont be. And you don't really steamroll much mid game unless you play ridiculously safe. Maybe its me or maybe You haven't played BB for a long time but being too easy late game is not one of its major problems unless you play very long or are an well above average player. However the game is not meant to be played for more than 1 or 2 crisis, it is even said in game iirc. This takes much more than a "few" hours.

If you plan to have MORE content than Battle Brothers then having a play trough of 2-3 dozens of hours - with new things and challenges even late game - shouldn't be an issue.

Basically, i think your premise is wrong and I share Darth concerns here about such short length of one play through. If you pull this off i'll be surprised but since otherwise it looks great i hope you're right.
Also i don't like those roguelite mechanics you talk about (if i understand you correctly) but that's a personal preference.

Overall, despite the above, still optimistic and wishing good luck.

 

[Harthwain]

Basically, i think your premise is wrong and I share Darth concerns here about such short length of one play through. If you pull this off i'll be surprised but since otherwise it looks great i hope you're right. Also i don't like those roguelite mechanics you talk about (if i understand you correctly) but that's a personal preference.

If runs are shorter you are more encouraged to finish one and start another one. In Battle Brothers each run can be REALLY long, unless you lose interest or get wiped. So I am fine with shorter runs, especially if you unlock more content with each run (more enemies/weapons/classes/whatever it is), which is something roguelites tend to do.

The downside of such approach is that the more you play, the less challenging the game gets, because of how powerful the unlocks are. But this is mostly the issue of balancing the power/utility of unlocks, not the mechanic itself. The Deepest Chamber has a VERY interesting concept in which you start with some basic enemies, but with each enemy killed you "unlock" more powerful ones. The sort of reverse difficulty curve. On one hand it eases the player into the game, on another - it increases the challenge as the time goes on, which also helps to balance out the stronger perks/classes/whatever.

 

[Serus]

Basically, i think your premise is wrong and I share Darth concerns here about such short length of one play through. If you pull this off i'll be surprised but since otherwise it looks great i hope you're right. Also i don't like those roguelite mechanics you talk about (if i understand you correctly) but that's a personal preference.

If runs are shorter you are more encouraged to finish one and start another one. In Battle Brothers each run can be REALLY long, unless you lose interest or get wiped. So I am fine with shorter runs, especially if you unlock more content with each run (more enemies/weapons/classes/whatever it is), which is something roguelites tend to do.

The downside of such approach is that the more you play, the less challenging the game gets, because of how powerful the unlocks are. But this is mostly the issue of balancing the power/utility of unlocks, not the mechanic itself. The Deepest Chamber has a VERY interesting concept in which you start with some basic enemies, but with each enemy killed you "unlock" more powerful ones. The sort of reverse difficulty curve. On one hand it eases the player into the game, on another - it increases the challenge as the time goes on, which also helps to balance out the stronger perks/classes/whatever.

There is another downside, much more serious. Making mechanics that are interesting and not easy to master in a 5 hour play through. Such short single play time means that there can't be any character/faction/whatever development or growth that doesn't boil to simplistic and shallow. Or one that you can't use in full. In my opinion it can't be done and i haven't seen any example to the contrary. You could, in theory make more interesting mechanics in the "unlocks" part but i very much doubt it too.
As i said, i don't like those between-short-games-upgrades mechanics.
I was proven wrong on many occasions though so i hope it will the case here.

 

[Harthwain]

There is another downside, much more serious. Making mechanics that are interesting and not easy to master in a 5 hour play through. Such short single play time means that there can't be any character/faction/whatever development or growth that doesn't boil to simplistic and shallow. Or one that you can't use in full. In my opinion it can't be done and i haven't seen any example to the contrary.

Development/growth doesn't have to be complex in order to be meaningful. In Blood Bowl each skill a player gets can introduce a significant change to how he is played. Realistically you plan to have 3 skills, while technically you can get up to 6 skills (but it depends on whether your player will be able to live that long). For this to be possible you need to carefully design how each level can fundamentally change the way you can play the game. Getting rid of the shitty "+5% to attack power" upgrade design school (meant only to waste the player's time/give the developer an excuse to say "requires X hours to complete!1010!!") is a bonus.

 

[Tyranicon]

Is your game going to support mods? (and if so attract modders?)

I think the game will be fairly easy to mod if it gets popular enough, but as for supporting mods, that's something I haven't worked with before and I'll probably have to look into it.

You need to go trough 1 or 2 crisis to get to the point of steamrolling late game content on legendary difficulty unless you are a tactical mastermind. But your average player probably wont be. And you don't really steamroll much mid game unless you play ridiculously safe. Maybe its me or maybe You haven't played BB for a long time but being too easy late game is not one of its major problems unless you play very long or are an well above average player. However the game is not meant to be played for more than 1 or 2 crisis, it is even said in game iirc. This takes much more than a "few" hours.

If you plan to have MORE content than Battle Brothers then having a play trough of 2-3 dozens of hours - with new things and challenges even late game - shouldn't be an issue.

Basically, i think your premise is wrong and I share Darth concerns here about such short length of one play through. If you pull this off i'll be surprised but since otherwise it looks great i hope you're right.
Also i don't like those roguelite mechanics you talk about (if i understand you correctly) but that's a personal preference.

Overall, despite the above, still optimistic and wishing good luck.

I think another problem besides mechanical difficulty is the relative lack of things to do in BB's late game. A lot of your important decisions in the game are frontloaded. I wouldn't go so far as to say late game is boring, but it does run out of steam a bit.

So instead of creating a game when the average player loses interest 10 hours in, we want something that keeps them going. I like the roguelike model of discovery where new content is being introduced even to veteran players.

However, this really only works when the gameplay is mechanically sound and can stand the rigor of serious playing. Judging by reviews of my previous games, my combat system's solid but creating challenging/interesting encounters is still difficult for me. My philosophy for this game will likely to create enemies that are interesting to fight and provide a tactical challenge, regardless of the makeup of any single encounter.

Game also won't be procedurally generated for the most part, although enemy mobs will differ in composition.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I think another problem besides mechanical difficulty is the relative lack of things to do in BB's late game. A lot of your important decisions in the game are frontloaded. I wouldn't go so far as to say late game is boring, but it does run out of steam a bit.

So instead of creating a game when the average player loses interest 10 hours in, we want something that keeps them going. I like the roguelike model of discovery where new content is being introduced even to veteran players.

Late game, besides the crisis, you would:

• Hunt for named weapons
• Visit Legendary locations with some epic encounters (library, abandoned hut, ...)
• Hunt for Legendary beasts like the Kraken and Jirok.
• Dynamic economy allow cities to build new shops/buildings.
• Do caravan missions toward citadels to buy named gear.

Legends adds Legendary monsters for most types

• White Wolves, Rock Unholds, Redback spider, Skin ghoul, etc.
• Monsters champions.
• More weapons types
• A lot of perks so a lot of different build to experiment
• More recipes for potions and armor attachments so you'd hunt lindwurms, stolwurms and other legendary beasts

For me, the bare minimum is 20 hours if the game doesn't waste your time with tedious/sluggish management tasks.