Starfield Thread - now with Shattered Space horror expansion

[CinnamonBuns]

Thoughts- this game is all over the place.

25% of it is improvements over Fallout 4. The dialogue system is leagues better, as are the RPG aspects of building a character (traits/backgrounds). This game is fundamentally still a looter shooter, so the ability to roleplay through its systems is often limited- but considering the depths of Fallout 4, Bethesda did something they probably haven't done since Daggerfall: adding rather than removing RPG systems from their newest game. The setting can be boring sometimes, but I do appreciate how "near-future" its take on sci-fi is. The writing is forced to be more grounded (mostly) than Bethesda's distinctly autistic "lol we're soooo random and zany!!!!" take on Fallout.

30-50% of it is typical Bethesda. Everyone knows that that means.

The variance here is because the pro-gen planets sometimes recreate the hiking-sim gameplay that Bethesda made its name on, but it more often just turns into barren stretches of wasteland between copy-pasted points of interest. Sometimes you can almost talk yourself into thinking it's incline- "this emptiness creates slow-burn gameplay and simulates space!" On balance though, I think it's not done well enough to actually consistently create this feeling. I more often feel like it's empty because Bethesda bit off way more than they could chew, not because the design is deliberately immersing you in the vastness of the cosmos. When your trek ends at the same point of interest you've already seen 5 times, it drives this feeling home.

The last 25% of it is genuinely dogshit. Whoever designed the UI in this game probably huffs paint in their free time. It's probably the most dated looking Bethesda game relative to its contemporaries, but still runs like trash. Locked FOV on PC and you need to use silly workarounds to fix it. The constant fast travelling, which in turn forces you back into the game's menus. The gameplay loop revolves around shooting, which still feels mediocre.

Overall, it comes together in a janky package that reminds me of low budget Eastern European shooters. Bethesda created a ton of systems, polished none of them, and used their budget to make this random mismash on a galactic scale. I can't say I love it, but it's working a lot better than Fallout 4 for me.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

I don't know shit about this, but wouldn't that be good if you want to have destructible environment? And if true why don't they have it?

Yes. Why they don't have it probably has to do with maintaining persistent damage - when parts of the world are damaged they'd have to be stored in a database so that when the player returns the walls aren't magically repaired again. I suspect when they started tracking player settlements they realized they had nothing left in the tank for anything dynamic beyond those settlements.

Also the game isn't in fact proc-gen

So their POIs aren't created at runtime? If they are, any idea if they can even merge them with their engine at runtime?

Most engines support it these days but I don't know if Gamebryo does. For statics you could do it on the art side no problem. For dynamics like the POIs you'd need a form of real-time batching. But I'm not an engine developer so I wouldn't know where to start on that.

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

Is a dialogue heavy character viable in this game because combat looks like ass

 

[Lemming42]

It almost sounds like you're describing... an incline. So is that where you're at, is this "the best game Todd's ever made?" Genuine question, because while I'm aware of the many, many flaws in Todd's games, I've also enjoyed them a lot, so what makes Starfield better than the rest?

Well, as a fellow Bethestard, you know what these games are like - some stuff that's absolutely wonderful and unique and can't be found anywhere else, some stuff that's just utter dogshit, and each game is its own flavour with its own goals that's hard to compare to the others. So it's hard to say that it's the best Todd's ever made - it does some things better than all the others, but there are various areas where it loses out to them too - the lore isn't as interesting as Morrowind, the itemisation isn't as good as Oblivion, the quests aren't quite as in-depth as Fo3 (though they're leagues ahead of any TES quest and they've got genuine C&C and branching routes), and solo exploration isn't as good as Skyrim.

Where it does shine is in having some of the more interesting questlines Bethesda's ever come up with, solid combat that easily beats Fo4 IMO, a perk tree with some real depth that forces you to make consequential choices and will let you make a distinct build (though some of the later ranks are a bit disappointing), and a freeform approach that gives you quite a bit more control over what you're actually doing than in any other post-Daggerfall Bethesda game.

So it's hard to compare to the other Todd games, but I'd say it's some of the most fun I've had with any of them in an unmodded state. I don't think it'll have quite the same immense longevity of Skyrim, but it's definitely got a bright future in mods.

 

[racofer]

Is a dialogue heavy character viable in this game

Bethesda Game

 

[Ibn Sina]

If anyone is wondering why over half the regular NPCs sound like Indians, or why why the only cultural clothing available is the indian Saris: take a look at the game credits.

Nearly 80% of the game has been outsourced to pajeets in Mumbai....

This also explains why a lot of the elements in the game are shit.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

If anyone is wondering why over half the regular NPCs sound like Indians, or why why the only cultural clothing available is the indian Saris: take a look at the game credits.

Nearly 80% of the game has been outsourced to pajeets in Mumbai....

Bethesda, sirs, send mods and engine.

 

[Vyvian]

If anyone is wondering why over half the regular NPCs sound like Indians, or why why the only cultural clothing available is the indian Saris: take a look at the game credits.

Nearly 80% of the game has been outsourced to pajeets in Mumbai....

This also explains why a lot of the elements in the game are shit.

I stopped reading the credits when I saw Iron Galaxy.
I had seen enough at that point to answer all my questions.

 

[Gargaune]

Is that precombines you guys are talking about? Could it be due to procgen areas or maybe they were planning destructible environments at some point? 'Cause otherwise it seems strange, I'm not too familiar with the CK, but I'm pretty sure generating precombines was an automated process.

its not that. Their Modular kits are for rapidly putting together levels specifically interiors. Also the game isn't in fact proc-gen, its just taking a pre-generated height map and randomly placing objects on it hence why the terrain remains the same but all the trees don't. What I'm refering to with batching is when you take models that will either not be dynamic (static batching) or dynamic but low poly (dynamic batching) where all of the models are combined so that they all render as one object. In the GDC video about Fallout 4 they make it very clear that none of the walls have their verts merged meaning that for every tile of wall its 1 separate object - which basically means a draw call per unique tile because of the way they do it (note: the example they show is bad because its made up of mostly unique tiles which is wasteful) (which is insane - and they boast about this being a huge improvement... NO its stupid you shouldn't do it that way). Then they talk about using Decals and Plugs to fix issues with the initial tile... again this is stupid because its creating an additional draw for each thing they use.

In laymans: its better to combine 100 objects into one building - thus draw 1 object not 100 (so I draw 100 objects for the price of 1 total), than it is to have one building made up of 100 objects, thus drawing 100 objects for the price of a single object each which is WORSE. Even worse each of those tiles would need their own collider - whats the point, just generate 1 big collision mesh. If there's no need for the walls to move or be customizable in any way then combining everything into 1 mesh is better, its less costly but obviously it allows for less customization. Not that it matters as most of where this is being used can't be customized anyway - its only beneficial for the settlements system.

On top of this they show wireframes and the geo looks very suspicious, lots of poorly used geo (sub-divisions being used where its lazy and wasteful to use them - eg. a flat section of metal - it doesn't need to be subdivided and you can get away with using floating geo most of the time). It genuinely feels as though the biggest problem is their art optimization first, and some issues with the renderer second which are the culprits for the poor performance.

Again much like with Cyberpunk its hard to get to the exact cause of why this is happening, so take what I am saying as pure hypothetical. I don't have access to their profiler so I can only go by what I "Think" is happening.

Sorry if I'm mixing things up, it's not my specialty, but I thought that's what Precombines were - draw call optimisations. The way it works in the CK is that you lay the level down with all those tiles and plugs and whatnot, and then you "combine" multiples into a single collection for performance, though I don't know at exactly what level that acts. Note that this is separate from Previs.

The majority of Fallout 4's worldpsace makes heavy use of this Precombine approach, with the exception being settlements, where a lot more stuff needs to be interactible (but you still have precombined meshes for everything you can't change). You can actually see the performance gap yourself in a heavy area like downtown Boston if you go to your fallout4.ini and, under [General] set bUseCombinedObjects=0. At that point, each object gets treated individually (e.g. you can scrap 'em in settlements), but performance tanks.

Well, as a fellow Bethestard, you know what these games are like - some stuff that's absolutely wonderful and unique and can't be found anywhere else, some stuff that's just utter dogshit, and each game is its own flavour with its own goals that's hard to compare to the others. So it's hard to say that it's the best Todd's ever made - it does some things better than all the others, but there are various areas where it loses out to them too - the lore isn't as interesting as Morrowind, the itemisation isn't as good as Oblivion, the quests aren't quite as in-depth as Fo3 (though they're leagues ahead of any TES quest and they've got genuine C&C and branching routes), and solo exploration isn't as good as Skyrim.

Where it does shine is in having some of the more interesting questlines Bethesda's ever come up with, solid combat that easily beats Fo4 IMO, a perk tree with some real depth that forces you to make consequential choices and will let you make a distinct build (though some of the later ranks are a bit disappointing), and a freeform approach that gives you quite a bit more control over what you're actually doing than in any other post-Daggerfall Bethesda game.

So it's hard to compare to the other Todd games, but I'd say it's some of the most fun I've had with any of them in an unmodded state. I don't think it'll have quite the same immense longevity of Skyrim, but it's definitely got a bright future in mods.

Cheers, that sounds pretty good actually. I'm butthurt over the lack of proper space gameplay, I was genuinely excited for that, but eh. The thing I'm most worried about is how the fragmented structure of the world will impact that typically Bethesda feeling of exploration, but whether it's this weekend or months from now, I will be seeing it for myself, that's for sure.

 

[Naraya]

If anyone is wondering why over half the regular NPCs sound like Indians, or why why the only cultural clothing available is the indian Saris: take a look at the game credits.

Nearly 80% of the game has been outsourced to pajeets in Mumbai....

Bethesda, sirs, send mods and engine.

Mods will do the needful.

 

[Ibn Sina]

Even if you are trash looter fan or like that kind of gameplay loop, starfield trash looting is much worse than that of fallout 4.

In fallout 4 you can tell the different items apart very quick and can guess what you can break it into but in Starfield because of how plastic and white everything is you cannot really tell what you are looting unless you pause and actively look at the items you are looting 1 by 1. I think all items in fallout 4 can be broken down to something but in starfield there are literal junk and clutter that cannot be used and have zero use except taking space in inventory.

 

[Lemming42]

The thing I'm most worried about is how the fragmented structure of the world will impact that typically Bethesda feeling of exploration, but whether it's this weekend or months from now, I will be seeing it for myself, that's for sure.

This is indeed the major blow, there's no real equivalent of the usual overworld exploration. Cities, when you get over their vastness, feel quite typically Bethesda-y, but there's no real dungeon-diving exploration of the type that formed the bulk of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim's gameplay.

Quest dungeons have all been pretty great so as long as you're on a questline then it feels like a standard Bethesda experience, but if you fly off on your own to explore, you'll be met with something that's very different from usual and generally far weaker.

 

[Hirato]

In laymans: its better to combine 100 objects into one building - thus draw 1 object not 100 (so I draw 100 objects for the price of 1 total), than it is to have one building made up of 100 objects, thus drawing 100 objects for the price of a single object each which is WORSE. Even worse each of those tiles would need their own collider - whats the point, just generate 1 big collision mesh. If there's no need for the walls to move or be customizable in any way then combining everything into 1 mesh is better, its less costly but obviously it allows for less customization. Not that it matters as most of where this is being used can't be customized anyway - its only beneficial for the settlements system.

I'd like to think they've improved this in Fallout 4 and beyond.
But never forget, half the Skyrim lighting mods exist solely to subdivide the meshes further to work around limitations of their lighting model.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Quest dungeons have all been pretty great so as long as you're on a questline then it feels like a standard Bethesda experience, but if you fly off on your own to explore, you'll be met with something that's very different from usual and generally far weaker.

i.e. all the randomly generated POI stuff is just padding

Good for grinding resources (incl. exp & $) and possibly getting some good piece(s) of randomly generated gear, but otherwise pointless.

 

[Alienman]

If anyone is wondering why over half the regular NPCs sound like Indians, or why why the only cultural clothing available is the indian Saris: take a look at the game credits.

Nearly 80% of the game has been outsourced to pajeets in Mumbai....

This also explains why a lot of the elements in the game are shit.

Todd's Indian dream game.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

If anyone is wondering why over half the regular NPCs sound like Indians, or why why the only cultural clothing available is the indian Saris: take a look at the game credits.

Nearly 80% of the game has been outsourced to pajeets in Mumbai....

This also explains why a lot of the elements in the game are shit.

Todd's dream Indian game.

Todd Zindabad))

 

[Swen]

If anyone is wondering why over half the regular NPCs sound like Indians, or why why the only cultural clothing available is the indian Saris: take a look at the game credits.

Nearly 80% of the game has been outsourced to pajeets in Mumbai....

This also explains why a lot of the elements in the game are shit.

Lol explains the hate BG3 gets on 4chan from all the Pajeets.

 

[Lyre Mors]

So how's the ridiculously easy looter shooter Bethesda game, bros? Has it saved RPGaming yet?

 

[Ibn Sina]

Meh I will come back to this game maybe a year from now. Starfield is the most sanitized Bethesda game to date. It is surreal. Not one cussword, profanity or even cloths that show some skin. Almost every character is dressed from waist to ankle in full baggy clothing or loose bodysuits. Even in the neon "cyberpunk" vegas planet, people are dressed like they are hiking in the nepals. The most burlesque and "risque" thing in the game are fully clothed/costumed grown men shaking it in a club. If I did not know better I would think Bethesda is trying to adhere to an Islamic dress code (from waist to ankle) in the game. But even Saudi now allows and has more more scantily clad women in its major cities these days than star field has in its futuristic cities!

The game is so soulless I cannot really describe it. You fight the same enemy "pirate" through out the game but with different health pools.

The game causes my PC to heat and put fan to maximum despite running much more visually games with RTX than this. Cyberpunk on high/Ultra with RTX looks 1000% better than this and it came out 3 years ago.

It is much worse than fallout 4 imo. If really want to scratch the Bethesda itch get fallout 4 with all the DLC and tons of mods it really does not look different from starfield and has the benefit of running more smoother.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

So how's the ridiculously easy looter shooter Bethesda game, bros?

It's comfy, but...

Spoiler

I'm in the minority that prefers this sort of 'low SF' setting over ME style space operas, so yeah.

 

[Swen]

Complete and utter victory for Larian.

 

[Lyre Mors]

So how's the ridiculously easy looter shooter Bethesda game, bros?

It's comfy, but...

Spoiler

I'm in the minority that prefers this sort of 'low SF' setting over ME style space operas, so yeah.

One of the main draws for me was the aesthetic and "NASA-punk" setting. It's just too bad the gameplay sounds like utter shit.

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

How is the outpost mechanic? The only things that look interesting to me are upgrading ships and developing outposts and possibly the main story if it's decent

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

Complete and utter victory for Larian.

I've had criticisms of bg3 but it's overall a good game and with patches/definitive edition could be great. Starfield isn't close

 

[Moink]

Interesting design on this helmet