KickStarter Solasta: Crown of the Magister Thread - now with Palace of Ice sequel DLC

[Tacgnol]

I must admit, I do like some of the ideas in 5e. Bounded accuracy (attack and AC not growing dramatically), is not a terrible idea for instance as it prevents the exponential growth of both and makes bonuses to either very valuable.

Ability score caps and limited power growth within class are pretty cancerous though.

I've been feeling a bit mixed about it too, and I THINK I like the general theory behind it. It seems like they're trying to "Squish" D&D, making lower levels more powerful and impactful and lessening the strength of higher levels so you get less "Welp I've got a few levels on you so I'm a walking god" syndrome. The casualty of that is character building seems relatively plain, but the benefit is... I hesitate to say a more believable world, but it slightly is. It's hard for me to completely judge it since Solasta's my first and only exposure to 5e and I'm not sure what are strictly Solasta decisions/mechanics and what's RAW, but magic items don't seem super common and they're more "Important". Finding a +1 sword matters more when your to-hit increases so slowly, for example. The more I play the more I do agree with Meredoth on evocation seeming wildly superior to basically all other spells though, which if THAT'S how 5e handles it then it's a damn shame. But the save DC and effectiveness of controlling spells seems pretty damn worthless compared to just nuking from orbit with scorching ray and one-shotting someone, which is no doubt even more obscene if you're playing a shocker.

All this is also just talking about the combat mechanics, 5e does seem questionable for roleplaying and fluff given how sidelined skills are. D&D's always been much more on the combatfag rather than storyfag side of things historically but 5e's looking like a really harsh example. Buuuuuuut, that also goes along with the "Squish" thing where DC's are a bit more universal now rather than ramping up to goofy levels. Which is a decent idea, even though it makes skills are a little more universal and people who are focused on a skill are just a bit better at it. But since ideally you're playing D&D with rollplayers instead of roleplayers and everyone's just wanting to drink soda and talk bullshit while chucking dice that's probably fine. Has been surprising though since I haven't had anything to do with 4th edition or 5th edition.

One of the big complaints about 5e is, as you say, skills are quite meaningless. DMs often have to arbitrarily give players advantage on rolls rather than just letting their high modifiers speak for themselves.

I really don't get why they nerfed modifiers so heavily on skills.

 

[Reinhardt]

It's just Victor started bitching about dragons fighting spelljammer in bg3. Bg1 starts with high level fight between Gorion and Sarevok, bg2 - Irenicus singlehandedly decimating two most powerful factions in Athkatla with high level spells, destroying half of the district in the process. Baldur's Gate games always started with people way out of our league doing awesum shiiiiiet to each other.

 

[Lambach]

and trust your players

 

[Thac0]

But the save DC and effectiveness of controlling spells seems pretty damn worthless compared to just nuking from orbit with scorching ray and one-shotting someone, which is no doubt even more obscene if you're playing a shocker.

After lowering the bonus that enemies get to Saving Throws on max difficulty from +3 to +0 I get real mileage out of my controlling spells. One thing that is really easy to overlook is that hold person is not a stun, it applies paralysed. Paralysis turns all melee hits into automatic critical hits. Paralyse a strong enemy, and he melts from the 3 free crits that your party members get against him.

But yeah web not being in is a huge blow against non Greenmage controllers.
Here is 5e's best guide to playing a controller:
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/mobilebasic
Here is part 2 where all spells are rated mostly well:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GEnaZsPhD0yKbLjEO16_ErxxE1O7xjAdeJJdSMTpz_0/edit

 

[NJClaw]

What do you guys mean by "barebones"? Is that as in, lacking features from D&D in terms of adaptation of the rules, or as in there's not a lot of interesting content to play through?

D&D 5th edition is already pretty barebone on its own as an RPG system. The philosophy behind its inception was to try to pick from previous editions features that worked while simplifying them as much as possible. Since Solasta doesn't even implement many of the aspects that add a bit of complexity to character creation (there are only 6 classes and very few subclasses for each class, there's no multiclassing, there aren't that many interesting feats), you get a system that can easily feel too shallow to someone who enjoyed stuff like ToEE, NWN, or Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

To get an idea of how simple things are, consider that, once you have chosen your class and ability scores, you will probably have to make only 3 or 4 choices during the entire game regarding the development of your character (excluding picking your spells). In Kingmaker, I'd say most characters need more than 20 choices (I'm saying a random number, but that sounds almost right).

That said, the game is still enjoyable. Everything regarding story and "exploration" is just silly at best, but the combat itself is good and I'm having a lot of fun with it.

 

[Lambach]

D&D 5th edition is already pretty barebone on its own as an RPG system. The philosophy behind its inception was to try to pick from previous editions features that worked while simplifying them as much as possible. Since Solasta doesn't even implement many of the aspects that add a bit of complexity to character creation (there are only 6 classes and very few subclasses for each class, there's no multiclassing, there aren't that many interesting feats), you get a system that can easily feel too shallow to someone who enjoyed stuff like ToEE, NWN, or Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

To get an idea of how simple things are, consider that, once you have chosen your class and ability scores, you will probably have to make only 3 or 4 choices during the entire game regarding the development of your character (excluding picking your spells). In Kingmaker, I'd say most characters need more than 20 choices (I'm saying a random number, but that sounds almost right).

That said, the game is still enjoyable. Everything regarding story and "exploration" is just silly at best, but the combat itself is good and I'm having a lot of fun with it.

Why even base your game on D&D if you're going to neuter build porn, one of its most alluring features?



Would've been smarter to just come up with a new ruleset specifically for the game (or the franchise, since there's a ":" in the game title, I'm assuming they're going for a franchise). They could've even called one of the classes Crushmaster or something.

 

[Lacrymas]

RE: Killing adult dragons at lvl 8 even though the CR is 14 - This is not uncommon to 5E. There are three (four) reasons why that is. First of all, like I've said before, the CR in the base Monster Manual is very off-base, as in the mobs are easier than their CR would indicate. Second of all, it very, very much depends on the party's composition, levels, and subclass choices. The infamous example of the Moon Druid destroying campaigns at level 2 is apt. Third of all, bounded accuracy and AC make it so that the to-hit chances compared to AC aren't wildly different a few character levels apart. Lower level characters can hit higher level ones quite reliably and that's one of the biggest contributors of defeating higher level enemies. The bonus fourth thing is how well the party is geared and what rules you use for healing potions. If quaffing healing potions is a bonus action, it's obviously going to make the encounters easier.

RE: Bounded accuracy and d20 - what the end result of this turned out to be (apart from no stat bloat, which I like) is that +to-hit bonuses are immensely powerful with no diminishing returns, quite the contrary - the more you have the better they get. This would be true even if you rolled 2d10 instead of 1d20, perhaps even better. However, I would've went with 2d10 to complement bounded accuracy instead of d20. Not only do you prevent the torrents of misses, but also standardize the rolls making it easier to balance boss battles in particular by giving them higher AC. Which is what I am experimenting with now with my friends. We'll see how it goes.

RE: Skills and d20 - this is a mess RAW, so I impose disadvantage on non-proficient skills when I DM.

 

[Nikanuur]

So, I'm about to enter the second part of the immensly big Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Do you recommend me to buy Solasta? Am I going to get seerius depressions from not knowing which one to play?

 

[V_K]

once you have chosen your class and ability scores, you will probably have to make only 3 or 4 choices during the entire game regarding the development of your character

Which is still 3 or 4 choices more than anything pre-3e, don't forget.
Personally, I wish there more opportunities to increase proficiencies during some level-ups, like the rogue has, and a greater choice of feats, but otherwise I think it's decent enough customization for a class-based system. 3.5e tries to have classless flexibility in a class-based system, and the result is a convoluted mess.

 

[NJClaw]

Why even base your game on D&D if you're going to neuter build porn, one of its most alluring features?

5E is quite popular, one could say thanks to its simplicity. My girlfriend has been playing for over 2 years now and she learnt how to play in less than an hour, but I think even an entire month of intense studying wouldn't be enough for her to learn how to play Pathfinder. Basically, to play 5E you need to know around 10 rules, while in 3.x 10 rules aren't even enough to learn how to correctly calculate your Armor Class.

3.5e tries to have classless flexibility in a class-based system, and the result is a convoluted mess.

I grew up playing 3.5, so I'm blind to its flaws and I will fight you to death if you don't say that it's the best RPG system ever RIGHT NOW

 

[Lambach]

5E is quite popular, one could say thanks to its simplicity. My girlfriend has been playing for over 2 years now and she learnt how to play in less than an hour, but I think even an entire month of intense studying wouldn't be enough for her to learn how to play Pathfinder. Basically, to play 5E you need to know around 10 rules, while in 3.x 10 rules aren't even enough to learn how to correctly calculate your Armor Class.

So what you're saying is that fucking normies ruin everything.

 

[V_K]

3.5e tries to have classless flexibility in a class-based system, and the result is a convoluted mess.

I grew up playing 3.5, so I'm blind to its flaws and I will fight you to death if you don't say that it's the best RPG system ever RIGHT NOW

Nope. TDE is.

 

[Thac0]

So, I'm about to enter the second part of the immensly big Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Do you recommend me to buy Solasta? Am I going to get seerius depressions from not knowing which one to play?

Solasta is better than the second half of Pathfinder Kingmaker already tbh. If you enjoy that then Solasta is a fairly safe bet.
The first half of Kingmaker however is significantly better than Solasta, putting Kingmaker overall a bit higher for me.
Both games rank as 8/10 for me currently, a weak 8/10 in Solasta and a strong 8/10 in Kingmaker.

 

[Lacrymas]

I think 5E is a very elegant system that doesn't suffer from the clear and concise rules. What it suffers from is the wildly swingy RNG (probably fixed by using 2d10), skill system (which is easily remedied by enforcing disadvantage on non-proficient rolls), the every-odd-level power spikes it inherited from previous editions (not easy to homebrew a fix), and too many base classes (very difficult to fix). Pathfinder/3.5E don't gain much from overcomplicating the class system, they just make it more obtuse and clunky to play tabletop. 5E just needs a few tweaks to make it a solid foundation on which the build interesting encounters.

 

[Tacgnol]

So, I'm about to enter the second part of the immensly big Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Do you recommend me to buy Solasta? Am I going to get seerius depressions from not knowing which one to play?

Solasta is better than the second half of Pathfinder Kingmaker already tbh. If you enjoy that then Solasta is a fairly safe bet.
The first half of Kingmaker however is significantly better than Solasta, putting Kingmaker overall a bit higher for me.
Both games rank as 8/10 for me currently, a weak 8/10 in Solasta and a strong 8/10 in Kingmaker.

Another element is that Kingmaker is a munchkin's dream. Solasta is far more limited on that front.

 

[Larianshill]

Why even base your game on D&D if you're going to neuter build porn, one of its most alluring features?

Some people enjoy actually playing tabletop games instead of jacking off to numbers on forums.

 

[Tacgnol]

5E is quite popular, one could say thanks to its simplicity. My girlfriend has been playing for over 2 years now and she learnt how to play in less than an hour, but I think even an entire month of intense studying wouldn't be enough for her to learn how to play Pathfinder. Basically, to play 5E you need to know around 10 rules, while in 3.x 10 rules aren't even enough to learn how to correctly calculate your Armor Class.

So what you're saying is that fucking normies ruin everything.

Gatekeeping was never a bad thing, despite the protestations of the press.

 

[Thac0]

Another element is that Kingmaker is a munchkin's dream. Solasta is far more limited on that front.

I kind of hope that until I go back to it and give it a second spin that there will be 4 more classes in, since the game is selling really well for the dev team size. If the devs aren't retarded with their ressources we might eventually get the full 12 classes and multiclassing.
But yeah Kangmaker has better character building, Solasta has better combat.

 

[Lambach]

Some people enjoy actually playing tabletop games instead of jacking off to numbers on forums.

But we're talking about a video-game, in which you don't have the endless freedom of a tabletop game, but have to follow a predefined (more-or-less) linear path set by the developers. Increasing build variety increases replay value.

 

[Nikanuur]

Why even base your game on D&D if you're going to neuter build porn, one of its most alluring features?

5E is quite popular, one could say thanks to its simplicity. My girlfriend has been playing for over 2 years now and she learnt how to play in less than an hour, but I think even an entire month of intense studying wouldn't be enough for her to learn how to play Pathfinder. Basically, to play 5E you need to know around 10 rules, while in 3.x 10 rules aren't even enough to learn how to correctly calculate your Armor Class.

3.5e tries to have classless flexibility in a class-based system, and the result is a convoluted mess.

I grew up playing 3.5, so I'm blind to its flaws and I will fight you to death if you don't say that it's the best RPG system ever RIGHT NOW

3,5 has been my only true love in this world so far. But I've been cheating with so many other systems, and sometimes even with physical-world girls, that I have no right to call it thus I guess.

 

[Lacrymas]

3,5 has been my only true love in this world so far. But I've been cheating with so many other systems, and sometimes even with physical-world girls, that I have no right to call it thus I guess.

True love doesn't mean no cheating, it means staying honest and devoted to each other despite that.

 

[Thac0]

Okay here comes the hot take:
2E > ( 5E = ADnD [1E] = Pathfinder ) > 3.5E > 4E

 

[Lambach]

True love doesn't mean no cheating, it means staying true and devoted to each other despite that.

Fucking hell, another "Lacrymas Hot Take" thread incoming.

 

[Lacrymas]

I'd rather talk about D&D hot takes, lol.

 

[Nikanuur]

So, I'm about to enter the second part of the immensly big Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Do you recommend me to buy Solasta? Am I going to get seerius depressions from not knowing which one to play?

Solasta is better than the second half of Pathfinder Kingmaker already tbh. If you enjoy that then Solasta is a fairly safe bet.
The first half of Kingmaker however is significantly better than Solasta, putting Kingmaker overall a bit higher for me.
Both games rank as 8/10 for me currently, a weak 8/10 in Solasta and a strong 8/10 in Kingmaker.

Another element is that Kingmaker is a munchkin's dream. Solasta is far more limited on that front.

I'd say I am fairly open-minded to very different approaches. I disdain only level scaling and mmo's BTL graphics devoid of any things to actually look out for. So as long as Solasta has a story, some branching quests, things to actually find out and not being handed all the time, I'd dig it. Thanks for the reply!