So, anyone playing League of Legends?

[Jim Cojones]

Well, Stonewall jungles wrong. lol. I do red at the same time Smite refreshes, so it should be 3.15-3.30 in my case. I'll look next time.

Just measured it. Goddamnit. Took a screenshot and all i got was a black screen. Next time I'll take it with F12 insted of printscreen.
Blue at 1.55-wolves-wraiths-Red lizard dead at 3.18 and had 3 seconds left till Smite. Note that I could even hurry it up by not waiting for Malphs passive to come up.Or doing the wolves first.
2 pots used, about 80-90% health left. Armor/attackspeed/ArmPen/mrperlv runes, 9/21/0 masteries.
Hes fast.

Stonewall doesn't measure the time it takes him to get red but the time of getting level 4. Your 3:15 is still 2 camps from that and I doubt you can complete them in 10 seconds to match the fastest junglers. If you want to compare the time need for blue->wolves->wraiths->red, then Udyr phoenix can do that at ~3:05 with 70% hp and no potions.

 

[Reject_666_6]

Herp derp reject, how do you mathematically assign value to a skillshot? Zoning? Positioning? Team synergy? Composition? Strategy?Feel free to show which stat should mathematically matter.

Are you trolling me bro? Skillshots have travel times, ranges, channelling delays, these things are defined by numbers in the game engine, not by the feel of whoever is judging them, like in the case of Elementz. If you want to compare skillshot effectiveness with that of regular targeted spells you just apply a modifier to the skillshot output to reflect the lowered chance to hit. Zoning and positioning are both tied to what a champ can do, and what they can do is defined numerically, so you can predict these things in matchups. Team synergy and composition are the same as above, only you have to take into account multiple heroes at the same time, instead of just one. Strategy is entirely up to the players and has no place in a tier list, unless you mean individual strategies and builds for each champ, in which case again you look at their stats and determine which items and behaviours are optimal to play to the strengths of each hero, and then compare that to other performances from other champs and adjust your list accordingly.

To make a tier list at all, you have to assume a closed system with equally skilled behaviour from all players, and in a closed deterministic system, everything can be predicted. Now you don't need to do everything like a sperg, but looking at the numbers is the only unbiased and objective way of determining tiers, not by looking at what's been done and what's being played, that provides a skewed perspective on the matter.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Lately I've just been doing Dominion matches for the IP bonus each day, but I accidentally entered a normal match today. Went Ahri mid, can't say her nerfs are noticable at all (not that I thought they would be when reading them.)

I mean, when I play her, I generally get to 6, kill whoever is in mid if possible (usually is, only heroes with crazy sustain or escape skills tend to be at full hp by then, or if something fucked things up like a gank) then warp back to spend my jewgolds on boots and a mejais. Then I just continually gank the lowest hp /most vulnerable champs until people give up on laning, warping back every time I get a kill. You don't need mana for that at all, since your whole kill routine generally uses maybe 1/2 of your bar at most, and the ulti CD doesn't matter that much since you're back at base for healing/mana anyways. By the time teamfights start happening, I usually have 10+ souls and a deathcap finished or nearly finished. Spam the fuck out of Q and E from the edges at the start (and W if you can use it safely), and fire up W and the ult if either anyone starts chasing you (stupid plan) or someone is going to limp away on low health. Grab Will of the Ancients next, take blue if you're really kicking ass and don't want to head back to base for mana ever, and enjoy having stupidly high burst and sustain on a glass cannon that is impossible to avoid. And it costs you 1 Q to pretty much wipe a creep wave at this point too, so you can split push and just ult away if the whole team comes for you (or rape someone stupid enough to come alone.)

 

[Darth Roxor]

Ahri has crazy sustain. I've actually managed to get beaten mid by an Ahri when playing Kassadin, which doesn't happen often. She rushed WotA, and my uberharass could do shit, since all she needed was one charged ball on a minion wave to get back to like full hp, which ended up with me getting more harassed because she'd just activate that homing fox fire shit the moment I'd riftwalk close. This caught me completely by surprise 'cause all the other Ahri players I faced before were total dumbfucks.

I hate facing competent champs for the first time. Makes me fail to adapt propa tactics fast enough

 

[Damned Registrations]

I actually got rolled mid when I played by the other Ahri, which never happened to me before. Playing Dominion had me completely out of practice judging distance and shit and I kept getting pegged by the orb.

I pretty much don't even use orb in lane except when I land charm. It heals more if you're hitting 5+ targets, but not by a lot and it pushes the lane a lot. Foxfires and the ult count as single target damage, so spread between 3 or even 2 enemies you get crazy returns. As long as you can keep casting, you're very very hard to kill without a solid damage burst. I troll people all the time who think they can finish me off after a teamfight or gank because I'm at ~300 hp and ult is down. EWQ later and I'm up to 600 HP or more and they're down by over 1000 from where they started. Ahri eats heroes without a decent gap closer alive, walking into that charm is just a death sentence.

 

[Xi]

Ahri has crazy sustain. I've actually managed to get beaten mid by an Ahri when playing Kassadin, which doesn't happen often. She rushed WotA, and my uberharass could do shit, since all she needed was one charged ball on a minion wave to get back to like full hp, which ended up with me getting more harassed because she'd just activate that homing fox fire shit the moment I'd riftwalk close. This caught me completely by surprise 'cause all the other Ahri players I faced before were total dumbfucks.

I hate facing competent champs for the first time. Makes me fail to adapt propa tactics fast enough

I fought a Kassadin maybe 3 or 4 days ago using this method (iLagU). It worked quite well. The only time I get over powered, against ANY other mid champ, is if they run off and get kills, we lose dragon, etc. WotA is Ahris best item due to how her Q works. It Spell vamps with every single hit. Late game she's healing for a LOT and is about 2-3s cooldown. Plus, if another team member get's WotA, she's just unfucking stoppable. Just sit back in group fights and send your orb into the crowd and ult in to finish everyone or to kill the people fleeing.

 

[ComradeCommissar]

Dunno why people bother with his lists tbh.

I know this was a little bit back but, it's because pubbies are retarded and want to try and abuse tier lists to win their games, instead of actually using helpful or real good champs, same old flavor of the month crap. I hate his "tier list" bullshit for a whole other reason though, it gets champs wonky, unneeded buffs and nerfs. Pubstars watch the proz lists, they all immediately bandwagon onto the "top tier" champs, getting some nerfed without reason, getting balanced or sleeper OP champs buffed and messing them up and all kinds of other stupid shit like that.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think a lot of people also simply don't have the ability to genuinely appraise champs. Skill while playing and skill while theorizing are both useful, but entirely separate. I'm glad I can crunch the numbers myself, but for someone who can't figure out who would win in a fight between champ X and Y assuming skillshots land and equal money built (or whatever other scenario is important to them) having a tier list is useful.

Or would be, if the tier lists were made by really good experts thinking things through carefully. I doubt that is the case though. It's more likely a list made by someone of middling theoretical capabilities but high in game skill making lists out his ass. But I suppose even that kind of list is better than nothing if you really don't have a fucking clue.

For actually professional games I don't see how it matters at all. Specific team synergy/counter picking is going to be a million times more important than overall champion ability on an individual basis. Something like the value of Veig's stun varies so massively depending on what champs he's allied with and against that picking him based on tier is pretty much meaningless. The same can be said of most champions, and items for that matter.

 

[Markman]

Well, Stonewall jungles wrong. lol. I do red at the same time Smite refreshes, so it should be 3.15-3.30 in my case. I'll look next time.

Just measured it. Goddamnit. Took a screenshot and all i got was a black screen. Next time I'll take it with F12 insted of printscreen.
Blue at 1.55-wolves-wraiths-Red lizard dead at 3.18 and had 3 seconds left till Smite. Note that I could even hurry it up by not waiting for Malphs passive to come up.Or doing the wolves first.
2 pots used, about 80-90% health left. Armor/attackspeed/ArmPen/mrperlv runes, 9/21/0 masteries.
Hes fast.

Stonewall doesn't measure the time it takes him to get red but the time of getting level 4. Your 3:15 is still 2 camps from that and I doubt you can complete them in 10 seconds to match the fastest junglers. If you want to compare the time need for blue->wolves->wraiths->red, then Udyr phoenix can do that at ~3:05 with 70% hp and no potions.

Then hes not that far behind. But hes so far fastest jungle smasher Ive played.And I dont give a shit about times anyway. Plus I hate Udyr, wont play him to try.

Oh, and if you look at these posts above mine people talk about Ahri and Kass and their builds and shit, so I also expect for some reason to get a somewhat reasonable response.
So if I post about Malph being a fast jungler, how I build him and other shit, you can post about other junglers YOU played and how did you get them to work. Instead of posting Stonewalls times, tell me yours. If I post Malph #1, its not the god given truth, its how much fun Im having with him at the time. Its just awesome that he does red so easily at lv2. Moar your own experiences, less googling.

 

[Markman]

Holy shit, Im watching Dyrus play the new Jax. Top lane Jax vs Gang. Farm farm farm farm for 20 minutes and then he got killed. Exciting shit. And surrendered at 24 cause all he did was farm and others were playing 4vs5. Pro

 

[Grunker]

In most situations top should just farm farm farm farm honestly

 

[Reject_666_6]

In other news, I've been playing Shyvana lately since she's on her free week, and she's a very fast and efficient jungler. I'm still very unsure about what to build on her, and every guide looks herp to me, so if you guys got any advice I'm all ears.

Dunno whether to buy her, Irelia or Olaf. Grunker mentioned that Irelia is slowly being phased out, but I played a game against her top and she looks fun, also Rain Man said he really wanted to use her in the next tournament due to 'how much utility she brings to a team'. I really like jungling, so Shyvana's got a big advantage there. Then there's the unspeakable option, Olaf, cause he just looks so fun.

 

[Grunker]

reject: if you think you can assign numerical value to "how this champ should be played" or "how well does this champion synergize with this strategy" you're the one who's trolling.

sovvy bwo

 

[Reject_666_6]

Guess we'll just agree to disagree then.

 

[Grunker]

nu-uh

accusing each other of trolling is more constructive

Also: I like playing Irelia, and I'd still call her a good buy... Her phasing out? Honestly, it might be FOTM as much as anything. I still like her personally. As for the pros, WickD seems to think she's good and the rest aren't calling her bad per se, just not using her that much. And she has a good lane against most tops, so why not?

Olaf is hilarious top, under certain circumstances. I personally hate Shyvana. I think she's sub par at almost everything and I dislike her kit.

 

[Reject_666_6]

You should try Shiv out this week, she's free after all. She doesn't feel that weak, the most I usually fuck up with her is the travel time on her dragon ult, which I've missed completely a few times.

Problem with Irelia and Olaf is that I got my 6300 already, but it might be months until they're on rotation (like Renek).

 

[Berekän]

The amount of crazy shit I've done with Olaf makes it worth all the IP I've spent on him. Might not be the strongest pick, but he certainly can put up a fight and you can do wonders with him.

 

[Hellraiser]

In most situations top should just farm farm farm farm honestly

Especially if you're playing Nasus. His entire laning style is "farm Q grab gold to build tanky and CDR so you can farm more even more easily" once Q is sufficiently farmed, you have a philosophers stone (so that you can afford to use mana on harrass instead of farming) and you have the tanky item needed to counter your lane opponent you can just rape him with Q. If he tries to farm he eats wither+Q, if he tries to farm under his tower he still eats wither+Q because once you grab chainmail you can laugh at the one or 2 tower shot damage you'll heal right back up. If they try to gank you you ghost+ult away while using wither on whoever can CC/slow you. Even derpamere can't do shit if nasus gets farmed. I had one fed trynd come top and try to 1v1 me after I killed TF once (lol free farm solo top) and farmed up a FH, we were fighting in the middle of the lane. I whack him with Q once he loses 1/3 of his HP he hits me I lose almost nothing, instead of running when endless derp starts he is still hitting me while I have 80% of my HP still left without using my ult. It was hilarious. I pretty much carried that game because they had to focus me with 3 or more people or I would just kill them all. Once the idiots on my team listened to me when I said "don't fucking run when I'm tanking them, focus fiddle and buy banshee's" we won this despite the early game feeding by bot and mid. It's hilarious when they try to chase you carries, you wither them and rape them with q one by one. It's also hilarious when fiddle blows his ult and all of his CC+drain on you and still dies in 2 hits without you going down below 70% hp.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

To make a tier list at all, you have to assume a closed system with equally skilled behaviour from all players, and in a closed deterministic system, everything can be predicted.

yeah, too bad LoL is not a closed deterministic system, it relies heavily - in fact is driven by - outside input from the players, which is anything but deterministic.

Seriously, stop trolling now. Or you can show me one (1) game in which the strengths and strategies can be expressed mathematically - they can't really do it in starcraft, in spite of incentives worth millions of dollars to do so. They can barely and kind of half-assedly do it in Chess, which is a turn-based game with much more rigid structure than LoL. The video game designers that designs the kinds of real time games we are talking about here can't do it, as is evidenced by OP/UP features that are in every single game that is released.

Or you can mathematically express the following scenario:

Kassadin lanes against Ahri mid. Trundle Jungles on Ahri side, Fiddledicks jungles on Kassadin side. F(x)= ? Feel free to define your own variables and make your own assumptions.

I mean on a philosophical level, if you can predict the movement of each molecule, you could also predict the future, but that is kind of irrelevant since we are light years away from being able to do anything like this. It is an interesting philosophical experiment but in real life it is completely irrelevant.

 

[Reject_666_6]

yeah, too bad LoL is not a closed deterministic system, it relies heavily - in fact is driven by - outside input from the players, which is anything but deterministic.

I already said that player skill cannot be a factor when making a tier list, in fact if it were it would defeat the purpose in the first place. If the world's best LoL player exclusively played Rumble, by your logic Rumble would have to be placed at #1, which we all know is ridiculous. (only morde es #1)

As for some examples, many arcade fighting games have insanely difficult AI opponents, which can only be defeated through abusing cheap tricks repeatedly. This is because the AI is programmed to know what it can do, at what ranges, and how much time they have available to do this. Putting AI opponens like this fight against each other almost always leads to a clear winner, because skill is capped by the game's programming.

My point is that only by doing it this way you get an objective list, and half-assed atttempts at tier lists based on gut instinct and FotM are subjective and useless. Get a team of assburgers and you'll get a good list.

 

[Grunker]

I already said that player skill cannot be a factor when making a tier list, in fact if it were it would defeat the purpose in the first place. If the world's best LoL player exclusively played Rumble, by your logic Rumble would have to be placed at #1, which we all know is ridiculous.

reject cannot into reading

Do the math on the example below, ASSUMING THAT ALL PLAYERS ARE OF EXACTLY EQUAL SKILL.

Kassadin lanes against Ahri mid. Trundle Jungles on Ahri side, Fiddledicks jungles on Kassadin side. F(x)= ? Feel free to define your own variables and make your own assumptions.

 

[Jaedar]

Mr Grunker do you realize how much math that would require?

I'm totally with reject on this one: tier lists should be based on numerical facts, and I believe you can calculate a champions efficiency with the power of mathemagics. I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much of a lazy bum to bother though.

Oh and reject if you want to borrow my account to try Irelia before buying her, just ask. Personally, I think she's fun to play, but she gets outlaned by a lot of the common top picks, especially early game.

 

[Phage]

Well, I've jumped on the Codexian bandwagon and have been playing a LOT of malzahar.

He clicks really well with me so I'm having a very easy time winning lane and picking up kills roaming. His late game is also pretty nuts if you position properly since his abilities scale very hard. I've been going boots -> 1 or 2 dorans -> sorc boots - > deathcap -> void staff -> ryjals - > (game usually over by now, but usually I get an hourglass)

Is there a better build for him? I don't really like RoA or Archangels since his mana costs aren't too high.


edit I also recently laned against a 2.2k ELO Ryze... (WholesaleGenocide and I have a pretty high combined normal ELO, so we sometimes get matches up with people like that) and I actually managed to hold my own. Didn't flat out win the lane (was behind by like 15 CS) but it still felt good man

 

[Reject_666_6]

the power of mathemagics.

 

[Berekän]

I've played just two matches with Sejuani and I think I'm already falling in love with her, she does a good jungle and her ganks are awesome. Really tanky and you can't escape her slows.