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So, anyone playing League of Legends?

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I'll say the same thing I said to Ulminati: Exhaust is a hard counter to Fiora. And that's ignoring stuns and Frozen Hearts and Randuin Omens and Malphites

Pubstomper material only.
 

DakaSha

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She doesn't really scare me at all except for the fact that she crushes all my teammates and gets fed.
But despite being the terrible player i am almost no champs scare me enough to scream OP NERF NAO.

It's always the person playing them.

I am mostly a mid player and i dont really like midding vs morgana or swain (yes swain) but i dont find them blatantly op just because they counter my playstyle. also i dont like laning vs cait because of the range but she still isnt op

And trynd never scared me. even as a noob. Once i learned how his ult works he became just another screaming faggot
 

Phage

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Exhaust is a hard counter to Fiora. And that's ignoring stuns and Frozen Hearts and Randuin Omens and Malphites

Pubstomper material only.

Cleanse is a hard counter to exhaust and that's including stuns.

High skill player material only.


(by the way, you can say Exhaust is a hard counter to riven, shyvana tryndamere, and every AD carry in the game, and yet those champions are all competitively viable)
 
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Ulminati

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I'll say the same thing I said to Ulminati: Exhaust is a hard counter to Fiora. And that's ignoring stuns and Frozen Hearts and Randuin Omens and Malphites

Pubstomper material only.

So you're saying that the summoners that's used to counter carries counters a carry? ;)

Not disagreeing with you. I've said numerous times that Fiora isn't OP, it's just that there are a lot of dumb people who don't know how to lane vs a carry without a support to babysit them.

Now, phages comment is predictably dumb as we've come to expect and shows that he doesn't really know how fiora works. The reason exhaust works so well with her is because most of her damage outpuf from lv 8 onwards comes from her burst of speed. Incidentially, burst of speeds duration is the same length as that of an exhaust. If you exhaust her once the BoS sound plays, you've effectively negated a lot of her damage.

Riven and trynd aren't hurt by exhaust in the same fashion since they aren't relying on a 3-second steroid to deal their damage and can hold off dps until exhaust wears off. Furthermore, they both have nonargeted dashes, meaning they can use ablities ot escape bad positioning even after getting hit by exhaust. Shyvana is usually played as a bruiser/tank jungler, not an AD carry, further cementing the fact that Phage really doesn't know what the fuck he's on about.
 

Phage

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Your hostility is delicious.

I list a bunch of champions that exhaust shuts down DPS wise and you get your panties in a bunch. Ever notice that good Tryndamere players take cleanse? Here's a tip - it's because it's widely accepted that CC, Exhaust and Ignite destroy him. And if you honestly believe that exhaust doesn't hamper Riven or a bruiser immensely, then there's literally no point in discussing this with you - not that there was in the first place.
 

Phage

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Yes, that was a good explanation for why exhaust doesn't affect Tryndamere, Riven and bruisers, when it's common knowledge that it shuts down the DPS of any of those champions.

Carry on with your emotionally charged statements and in-thread memes.
 
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Ulminati

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Yes, that was a good explanation for why exhaust doesn't affect Tryndamere, Riven and bruisers, when it's common knowledge that it shuts down the DPS of any of those champions.

Carry on with your emotionally charged statements and in-thread memes.

Riven and trynd aren't hurt by exhaust in the same fashion since they aren't relying on a 3-second steroid to deal their damage and can hold off dps until exhaust wears off. Furthermore, they both have nonargeted dashes, meaning they can use ablities to escape bad positioning even after getting hit by exhaust. Shyvana is usually played as a bruiser/tank jungler, not an AD carry, further cementing the fact that Phage really doesn't know what the fuck he's on about.

Your hostility is delicious.

Eh, I'm always hostile around idiots. And you certainly qualify.

convincing either of you that your viewpoint is wrong is like chasing singed. A futile waste of time while everyone else enjoys blowing up your objectives.
 

Phage

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That's fine and dandy, but exhaust still annihilates the DPS of Tryndamere, Riven or any other bruiser

:troll:

(Also, you could say that Fiora's Ultimate allows her to escape from Exhaust. But if you don't want to waste her ult on that, then you can just, you know, run cleanse.)
 
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Ulminati

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Fioras ultimate does not, in fact allow her to escape when exhausted. Since she moves WITH the target she ults (usually under their turret). Riven and trynd can broken wings/spinning slash/valor towards their own tower once exhaust lands and trading blows becomeunfavourable.
 

Phage

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Oh, I thought we were referring to team fighting. By your current definition, which is, prevents escape in lane, doesn't exhaust stop anything without an escape mechanism?
 

Grunker

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Phage certainly is not an idiot. He is a bro, and he is probably the most knowledgable LoL-player in this thread (perhaps with the exception of Juul). I almost solely disagree with him on the ELO-hell thing.

Also, Ulminati, you do have a tendency to react extremely aloof and hostile whenever someone challenges your opinions.
 
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Ulminati

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Oh, I thought we were referring to team fighting. By your current definition, which is, prevents escape in lane, doesn't exhaust stop anything without an escape mechanism?

Any nontargeted dash/flash/jump resets the fight. To a smaller extent - excluding jungler interference - any CC that prevents the opponent from attacking you while you are exhausted effectively resets the fight. Cleanse naturally resets the fight as well, but remains surprisingly unpopular since kiddies want their ignite.

If we're talking teamfights, exhaust hurts fiora harder than riven and tryndamere as well, since riven/trynd can still contribute with aoe stun, aoe knockup, aoe slow and aoe AD debuff from runic burst, broken wings and mocking shout respectively. Likewise, Shyvanas main contribution in a teamfight is her armor debuff and being a giant annoying roadblock that incidentially deals damage. Exhaust does not hinder her as bad as fiora in doing her job.

My main annoyance with phage and the reason I consider him a dumb fuck is mainly rooted in the fact that he often completely misses points made 1-2 posts before him when he makes his responses -- eg:
Yes, that was a good explanation for why exhaust doesn't affect Tryndamere, Riven and bruisers, when it's common knowledge that it shuts down the DPS of any of those champions.

Carry on with your emotionally charged statements and in-thread memes.

Granted, he was talking about teamfights where I was talking about laning. Hence why I now suplied ways in which an exhausted riven/tryndamere will still contribute in a teamfight whereas fiora cannot in this post. In a teamfight, people could still make an argument for fioras ultimate giving her ample time to deal damage while being untargettable and then being relatively safe from focus in the ensuing clusterfuck, but there are numerous pitfalls here.

1: Fioras ultimate targets random targets. If you use it a tthe start of a teamfight, you will most likely be dealing a lot of your tamage to nonessential targets. Unless you can catch a squishy off to the side, in which case it's more of a semi-gank than an actual teamfight.
2: Fioras ultimate is generally something you don't want to open with (even to avoid early exhaust) as you will be missing out on a chance to get a lot of uninterrupted lifesteal in once you've taken a little damage
3: Fioras ultimate is generally something you don't want to open with (even to avoid early exhaust) as an enemy with half a brain will then disengage and move into the middle of his team, where you will subsequently appear and get squished once the ultimate ends.
4: Fioras ultimate - despite being touted as rendering her untargettable - is still subject to skillshots and AoE effects for the breif moment fiora appears to deal damage. I've been hit by dark bindings, unstobbable force, rocket grab, nevermore and all manner of other weird shit while in the middle of my ultimate before. It's a clean-up move, not an opener.

Also, Ulminati, you do have a tendency to react extremely aloof and hostile whenever someone challenges your opinions.

Yep. I never challenged the fact that I generally am quite hostile. Especially around people who make statements that either disregard things that were recently stated (such as the trynd/riven mobility abilities, since those are the most recent example in this thread) to make their points or people who make statements as if they were fact without bothering to elaborate on how they reached their conclusions. On the same topic, the response that fuelled this paticular little flamewar:

by the way, you can say Exhaust is a hard counter to riven, shyvana tryndamere

is now also partially debunked, as we've established that riven/shyvana/tryndamere have mobility abilities of their own that cancels or migitates the effect of the movespeed decrease in exhaust, as well as debuffs/ccs of their own that mean they can contribute in a teamfight even after their damage output gets wrecked. While exhaust still hurts them, it is a soft counter, not a hard one.
 

Phage

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So, like I said, exhaust wrecks Tryndamere, Riven and Bruiser's DPS. (DPS means Damage per second)

:troll:


Sure, exhaust counters Fiora harder than the previously mentioned champions. And again, "just take cleanse", was actually my original argument. You simply took a supporting claim and tried as hard as possible to pick it apart. Granted, you did a good job of explaining why exhaust doesn't completely devastate those champions, the fact that it reduces their auto attacks by 75%, their abilities by 35%, and makes it so they have to blow an ability in order to reposition, is extremely potent.

Also using Fiora's ultimate versus multiple targets really isn't that bad - each hit on a single target has diminishing returns. It is, undoubtedly, extremely potent to use during teamfights after the big AoE shits are blown. Getting hit by a skillshot like dark binding during your ultimate will be extremely random, and fairly unlikely. It is also extremely powerful for cleanup. Moves have multiple uses.

Finally - Ulminati, your hostility started before you said anything about mobility. Allow me to remind you how this conversation occured:

- Vault Dweller says that Fiora is OP
- Phoenix says that she is worthless, solely because of exhaust
- I mock him a bit by copying his post style, and explain that cleanse hard counters exhaust. I also put forth that exhaust ruins other melee ADs, and ADs in general.
- Ulminati gets butthurt.
- Phage and Ulminati wave their ecocks
- Grunker calms everyone down
- The conclusion is that while Fiora is, indeed shut down by exhaust, every melee AD (and ranged AD) suffer immensely from it, and you can simply take cleanse, as I stated over and over.


Is there anything left to discuss here? Genuinely curious.
 
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Ulminati

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I'm not sure I would take cleanse on fiora actually.

The problem (or some might say brilliance) of sumoner spells is you are extremely limited in your selection. Fiora - being a carry - needs to be able to secure kills to get her snowball started. While she CAN farm creeps, her kit does NOT help her get a good farm started. On lower levels she is also extremely fragile and melee, meaning that every lasthit is a potential risk. This means she needs either an exhaust of her own (since she has no CC of her own and towerdives can get quite risky) or ignite (if she's laning against someone with a shitton of healing) or smite (if she's jungling). The other spell really NEEDS to be flash, since her ultimate has a tendency to position her far away from her teammates and generally in deep shit. If I could take a third summoners, sure, I'd grab cleanse. (In fact, I think I'd grab cleanse on just about every champ except morgana/spankplank if I could has 3 summoners). But as it stands, Fioras kit is too narrowly focused, practically requiring her to go flash+ignite/exhaust unless her team builds around her. This makes her a more situational/pubstomper pick and probably less 'viable' in a tryhard environment unless - again - your team is willing to build around supplying fiora with the CC she needs but doesn't have and your lane/jungle opponent is already picked and not a big threat to fiora.

I don't think there is much left to DISCUSS. And if there is, we're about as likely to agree on anything as a frenchman and a brit talking about cooking. :thumbsup:
 
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Ulminati

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Clearly, the answer to any doubts of Fiora's viability is... Tiamat
:lol:

I'm so building that in a game tonight.


Actually, that brings up an interesting possibility.

Tiamat procs on hit for AoE damage. Shyvanas Q procs item effects twice. Shyvanas Q in dragon form hits everyone in an AoE in front of her.

Shyvana + tiamat + dragon + q in a teamfight/enemy in a minion wave = splat? Tiamat doesn't have an internal cooldown that'd prevent it from proccing multiple times in a single (aoe) autoattack, does it?
 
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Ulminati

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Yes. Every tiamat you have adds a splash of 50% of your autoattack damage in a small AoE. So on Shyvanas Q that'd be +100% AD

Now imagine an enemy team clustered tightly together and a shyvana with 2x tiamat in dragon form. She Q's everyone for 2x her AD (double strike) and applies item effects twice. That means a splash damage effect centered on every enemy, hitting for a further 2x her ad (.5x for tiamat x 2 tiamats x 2 for double strike). Assume every enemy is in splash range of 2 allies. Shyvana just hit everyone for 4x her AD.

Now assume she has mallet + atma for the beefiness + ad and her 4x AD dragon tiamat Q crits for an effextice 8x her full AD :eek:

[edit]

I fired up leaguecraft for the champion builder.

Assuming she hits a tight cluster where every enemy is within range of 2 of their allies/minions/neutral creeps, a crit (22% chance) will hit for 2680 damage, while a normal hit hits for 1276 damage. Before armor of course. but on every target.

And that's just with 2 allies/minions/creeps inside the Q AoE. Pretty likely if, say, you're attacking someone inside a creep wave.

Since we're masturbating to numbers in this theorycraft anyway. Let's assume 3 people/minions/creeps are clustered together and we get a normal attack, where enemy armor negates 33% of our damage on average (since there's some squishies in the group we're Q'ing and/or we used her E to reduce their armor). Lifesteal is not under the same restrictions as spell vamp in regards to AoE attacks (since noone ever builds tiamat, lol). Dealing an average (after armor) of 842 damage per target, our wriggle + masteries + quints just healed us for 606 damage and we did a total of 2526 damage split over 3 enemies with a single autoattack.

I'll try it out when I get home tonight and report back with my findings :salute:

In the meantime, someone figure out how tiamat + lichbane interact with each other for purposes of akali
 

Phage

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Yeah, Xypherous (champion designer) talked about how they intentionally don't have AoE on hit effects for that reason - then in the same thread realized Shyvana's dragon form Q has this property, but eventually concluded that it's too niche to really be a game breaking threat.

Sounds like good fun if you pull it off correctly though.
 

Grunker

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Well, you know our playgroup has a fondness for the AoE-troll-team when we're just having fun. We've been pondering a Fiora with Tiamat on that team for a while now :)

Just need someone who actually wants to pay money for the bitch.
 
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Ulminati

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Just need someone who actually wants to pay money for the bitch.

You totally should. Even if she's free now (like Roxor pointed out) she's also hilariously fun to play. Not regretting the IP I sank into her (or the subsequent RP for her Musketeer skin. Dat hat!) in the least!
 

Grunker

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As you can read from my VLADI-post, I currently have problems with LoL so I can't play :(

Also, my next 6300IP are going into Naughty, and then I really need to start updating my rune-pages.
 

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