Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[Sykar]

Oblividerp is so shit that no mod in the world can fix that inexcusable mess of a giant turd.

Nonsense. You can easily fix oblivion in 3 simple steps:

• replace all the content
• replace all the assets
• mod mechanics beyond recognition

At which point you need to ask yourself: "WHY am I playing oblivion in the first place?"
At least with Skyrim you can actually enjoy playing something clearly recognizable as Skyrim, hell, you can even enjoy playing vanilla, at least until the GUI eats your soul.

I don't agree with your point about Skyrim, though my biggest problems with the game is that its character development systems are pointless and shallow which can't be fixed due to the engine limitations. As for Oblivion, I think you are right, the game has to be modded into hell and back to fix it. It takes FCOM (3-4 complete overhaul mods combined) that also has a slew of individual mods with it and then you add your own preference mods on top of that to end up with an enjoyable experience. It is no small task though, especially for the newcomer to dealing with all the mods and utilities. I think the first time I installed FCOM, it took me about 6-8 hours of installing, configuring, and tweaking to get the game set to play. That really is a lot of work, though for me I think it was worth it. While it is a major event to get Oblivion in a playable state, no amount of modding can repair the things I hate about Skyrim, which is unfortunate as Skyrim is really beautiful when you mod all the visuals in.

At least Skyrim spares you the headache of seeing weapon skills like Axes lumped into Blunt Weapons. The first time I saw this I was like "WHAT THE FLYING FUK". The next big offense was the idiotic dialogue wheel which anyone with a working braincell could manipulate well enough to utterly marginalize speechcraft, or rather make it completely obsolete.

As shallow as character system is, in Skyrim I liked that they at least attempted something fresh and new with it. I can see quite some potential with the perk system, but there was just no need to gut the attribute system for it.

 

[Xenich]

At least Skyrim spares you the headache of seeing weapon skills like Axes lumped into Blunt Weapons. The first time I saw this I was like "WHAT THE FLYING FUK". The next big offense was the idiotic dialogue wheel which anyone with a working braincell could manipulate well enough to utterly marginalize speechcraft, or rather make it completely obsolete.

As shallow as character system is, in Skyrim I liked that they at least attempted something fresh and new with it. I can see quite some potential with the perk system, but there was just no need to gut the attribute system for it.

You can fix the stupid weapon lumping in Oblivion though with mods. I agree, seeing them combine those made me realize Bethesda became a consoltard studio. Only a fucking idiot would think those things are ok being thrown together. The speech craft issues can be repaired as well, but again... as was mentioned, you essentially end up rewriting the entire game with modding.

Whatever potential exists with the perk system is killed by the limitations of the engine. They took out pretty much any possibility of making a system deep and rewarding. All it will be are marginal features attempting to provide some meaning to character progression, but always coming up short. They gutted the attribute system because it simplified their development and design. Now if the attribute system was still there, it may have been possible to create some complex relationships between perks and attributes, though obviously that is impossible now.

As for fresh and new... don't be fooled. Skyrim was designed to be shored up to be compatible with the Fallout development. It was business decision purely, a two birds with one stone type of thing. This way, they can churn out games faster without putting much effort into the engines. Expect Fallout 4 to be Skyrim with guns (much like Fallout 3 was Oblivion with guns). Now they don't have to deal with the pesky problems of unlike development systems in both games. They are one and the same. So no, it wasn't "trying something new", it was shoving the same shit down players throats. Make no mistake, if Bethesda could sell you actual dogshit and get away with it, you would be up to your neck in it.

I want to like Skyrim, I really do. It is a great looking game, but its engine mechanics are nothing more than a dumbed down console game. Imagine if you had the mechanics of Arena and the graphics engine of Skyrim. Even if people didn't like the vanilla game, the modding community could make the game for any taste or direction. When you have all the tools available, you can build as you like. Problem with Skyrim is that the tools available to you are a cheap 5 piece home maintenance set of Chinese made tools bought from Walmart.

 

[Crevice tab]

I want to like Skyrim, I really do. It is a great looking game, but its engine mechanics are nothing more than a dumbed down console game. Imagine if you had the mechanics of Arena and the graphics engine of Skyrim. Even if people didn't like the vanilla game, the modding community could make the game for any taste or direction. When you have all the tools available, you can build as you like. Problem with Skyrim is that the tools available to you are a cheap 5 piece home maintenance set of Chinese made tools bought from Walmart.

Could we agree that Skyrim is the better game but Oblivion has the better engine?

 

[Xenich]

I want to like Skyrim, I really do. It is a great looking game, but its engine mechanics are nothing more than a dumbed down console game. Imagine if you had the mechanics of Arena and the graphics engine of Skyrim. Even if people didn't like the vanilla game, the modding community could make the game for any taste or direction. When you have all the tools available, you can build as you like. Problem with Skyrim is that the tools available to you are a cheap 5 piece home maintenance set of Chinese made tools bought from Walmart.

Could we agree that Skyrim is the better game but Oblivion has the better engine?

I can only agree that Skyrim looks better, sounds better and attends to all those elements of play better than any of the other games, there is some arguments in some aspects between them in various details though. In the end though, I doesn't matter because the key important thing that drives me to enjoy an Open RPG game of this nature is the development system and since Skyrim can't be fixed (like I can Oblivion), it will always be a loser on that argument.

 

[Luzur]

What, someone is seriously saying that Oblivion is good?

 

[Xenich]

What, someone is seriously saying that Oblivion is good?

Yeah, that is it... that is exactly what is being said. I mean, if you read the discussion... that is exactly what is being said! Derp derp!

 

[DalekFlay]

Pity you cannot get rid of that retarded quest compass since the quest texts are so barren and void of information that the quest log of Morrowind, which was a pure clusterfuck, seemed like a stroke of genius in comparison.

Try "Even better quest objectives", which while not fixing it completely at least gives the possibility to find quest objectives of a relatively large parts of the quests in the game just by the journal and without the need to use the quest compass as often.

Yes, writing for both and then having an options menu toggle for the quest arrow would be best. New Vegas arguably did this, I modded out the quest arrows and 90% of quests gave you enough information to not need it.

 

[Sykar]

At least Skyrim spares you the headache of seeing weapon skills like Axes lumped into Blunt Weapons. The first time I saw this I was like "WHAT THE FLYING FUK". The next big offense was the idiotic dialogue wheel which anyone with a working braincell could manipulate well enough to utterly marginalize speechcraft, or rather make it completely obsolete.

As shallow as character system is, in Skyrim I liked that they at least attempted something fresh and new with it. I can see quite some potential with the perk system, but there was just no need to gut the attribute system for it.

You can fix the stupid weapon lumping in Oblivion though with mods. I agree, seeing them combine those made me realize Bethesda became a consoltard studio. Only a fucking idiot would think those things are ok being thrown together. The speech craft issues can be repaired as well, but again... as was mentioned, you essentially end up rewriting the entire game with modding.

Whatever potential exists with the perk system is killed by the limitations of the engine. They took out pretty much any possibility of making a system deep and rewarding. All it will be are marginal features attempting to provide some meaning to character progression, but always coming up short. They gutted the attribute system because it simplified their development and design. Now if the attribute system was still there, it may have been possible to create some complex relationships between perks and attributes, though obviously that is impossible now.

As for fresh and new... don't be fooled. Skyrim was designed to be shored up to be compatible with the Fallout development. It was business decision purely, a two birds with one stone type of thing. This way, they can churn out games faster without putting much effort into the engines. Expect Fallout 4 to be Skyrim with guns (much like Fallout 3 was Oblivion with guns). Now they don't have to deal with the pesky problems of unlike development systems in both games. They are one and the same. So no, it wasn't "trying something new", it was shoving the same shit down players throats. Make no mistake, if Bethesda could sell you actual dogshit and get away with it, you would be up to your neck in it.

I want to like Skyrim, I really do. It is a great looking game, but its engine mechanics are nothing more than a dumbed down console game. Imagine if you had the mechanics of Arena and the graphics engine of Skyrim. Even if people didn't like the vanilla game, the modding community could make the game for any taste or direction. When you have all the tools available, you can build as you like. Problem with Skyrim is that the tools available to you are a cheap 5 piece home maintenance set of Chinese made tools bought from Walmart.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/21587/?

Might be worth a shot.

 

[Xenich]

At least Skyrim spares you the headache of seeing weapon skills like Axes lumped into Blunt Weapons. The first time I saw this I was like "WHAT THE FLYING FUK". The next big offense was the idiotic dialogue wheel which anyone with a working braincell could manipulate well enough to utterly marginalize speechcraft, or rather make it completely obsolete.

As shallow as character system is, in Skyrim I liked that they at least attempted something fresh and new with it. I can see quite some potential with the perk system, but there was just no need to gut the attribute system for it.

You can fix the stupid weapon lumping in Oblivion though with mods. I agree, seeing them combine those made me realize Bethesda became a consoltard studio. Only a fucking idiot would think those things are ok being thrown together. The speech craft issues can be repaired as well, but again... as was mentioned, you essentially end up rewriting the entire game with modding.

Whatever potential exists with the perk system is killed by the limitations of the engine. They took out pretty much any possibility of making a system deep and rewarding. All it will be are marginal features attempting to provide some meaning to character progression, but always coming up short. They gutted the attribute system because it simplified their development and design. Now if the attribute system was still there, it may have been possible to create some complex relationships between perks and attributes, though obviously that is impossible now.

As for fresh and new... don't be fooled. Skyrim was designed to be shored up to be compatible with the Fallout development. It was business decision purely, a two birds with one stone type of thing. This way, they can churn out games faster without putting much effort into the engines. Expect Fallout 4 to be Skyrim with guns (much like Fallout 3 was Oblivion with guns). Now they don't have to deal with the pesky problems of unlike development systems in both games. They are one and the same. So no, it wasn't "trying something new", it was shoving the same shit down players throats. Make no mistake, if Bethesda could sell you actual dogshit and get away with it, you would be up to your neck in it.

I want to like Skyrim, I really do. It is a great looking game, but its engine mechanics are nothing more than a dumbed down console game. Imagine if you had the mechanics of Arena and the graphics engine of Skyrim. Even if people didn't like the vanilla game, the modding community could make the game for any taste or direction. When you have all the tools available, you can build as you like. Problem with Skyrim is that the tools available to you are a cheap 5 piece home maintenance set of Chinese made tools bought from Walmart.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/21587/?

Might be worth a shot.

You can see they are honestly trying to achieve such, but look closely, they are restricted still by the engine so try as they might to bring the old systems back, they new system defines the template to which they can work with. I commend them for trying, but they don't have much to work with and so it still just comes out to a bland shallow system. It was a good try though, but they were fighting a losing battle from the start.

 

[Xenich]

Infinitron whose alt is Xenich

Go ahead Infinitron, tell them. How many accounts do I have?

 

[DraQ]

I don't agree with your point about Skyrim, though my biggest problems with the game is that its character development systems are pointless and shallow which can't be fixed due to the engine limitations.

Examples.

Skyrim's character development system is pretty sound, despite being needlessly dumbed down. Perk trees are a decent idea and both advancement based on all skills and actual build divergence are net improvements over everything prior in the series.
Lack of starting builds is fixable by mods, for example by giving small pool of perk points and requiring perks for skills to be actually useful, as is the case with Requiem.
Requiem also showcases return or stat-based mobility.
If mods like Requiem are not enough you have mods re-implementing whole attribute systems as is the case with Third Era Attribute System or whatsitsname.

With tools like script extenders available it's genuinely hard to make a mechanics that's fucked beyond salvageability.

While it is a major event to get Oblivion in a playable state, no amount of modding can repair the things I hate about Skyrim, which is unfortunate as Skyrim is really beautiful when you mod all the visuals in.

It's the other way around. Skyrim is deeply flawed mechanically and in terms of some content like quests and their writing. The thing is that underneath there is still a game worth playing. Meanwhile oblivion not only has fucked up systems (arguably more fucked up because they are stuck in a limbo between old and new school - some complexity is still there, but no longer working, dumbing down is already present but no novel stuff like perk systems to offset it) but it's base content is banal and not worth playing on all levels. You may find an ocassional quest that isn't cringeworthy, but the world it's set in is shit, other quests are shit, characters are shit and everything uses shit assets.
Skyrim is maybe not an outright gem but at least a semi-precious stone embedded in piece of shit. Oblivion is all shit. You can't keep wiping layers off it in hopes that there will be something worthwhile underneath them, it's shit all the way down.
Oblivion as a game is simply dead, modding it is polishing a turd.

 

[DraQ]

You can fix the stupid weapon lumping in Oblivion though with mods.

Can you? Because I don't think you can add skills to OB's system so at best you can make axes into blades, which, if you excuse my edginess, kind of misses the point.
To put it bluntly.

you essentially end up rewriting the entire game with modding.

Yes, after polishing the entire turd away, you put a gemstone in its place and pretend it's been there all along.

Whatever potential exists with the perk system is killed by the limitations of the engine. They took out pretty much any possibility of making a system deep and rewarding. All it will be are marginal features attempting to provide some meaning to character progression, but always coming up short. They gutted the attribute system because it simplified their development and design.

You are still being awfully unspecific. To the point of sounding like a fucking politician.
Either cough it out already or choke on it.

Now if the attribute system was still there, it may have been possible to create some complex relationships between perks and attributes, though obviously that is impossible now.

Yes, IF the attribute system was still there there would be another layer to character building and the system would be better. It still doesn't imply the system is broken beyond all help even if it is simplified, and it still did gain something for all the loss.
Finally, it isn't completely attributeless, as health, magicka and stamina pools have points allocated on level ups and can double as simple 3-attribute system. Sure, 3 isn't 8 but it also isn't 0, pools are in themselves meaningful and mods can work with them too.
If that's unsatisfactory, you can bolt a traditional 8-attrib system built from scratch on top of that. It has been done.

As for fresh and new... don't be fooled. Skyrim was designed to be shored up to be compatible with the Fallout development.

Good.
Better than Beth's traditional reinventing the wheel and its results we've seen in OB, in any case.
Competent craftsmen reuse their tools. Anything else is wasteful and forces effort to be spent on stuff that doesn't increase the quality of the end result and can't be spent on actually trying to do something interesting rather than being bogged down by technicalities.

Make no mistake, if Bethesda could sell you actual dogshit and get away with it, you would be up to your neck in it.

They already did sell people actual dogshit. It was called Oblivion.

Could we agree that Skyrim is the better game but Oblivion has the better engine?

Skyrim runs on the same hardware without looking like a 3yo vomited over a pile of freshly polished potatoes after eating a box of crayons and some glowsticks, so no.

 

[Paokala]

What can you be in game like Dragon Age/Baldurs Gate/Neverwinter Nights:
- Mage
- Warrior
- Rouge

What can you be in games like Oblivion/Morrowind/The Witcher/:
[dozens of classes]

I just couldn't resist replying this 3 yo comment. In reality this is quite the opposite. For example NWN and Baldur's gate have several different kits and prestice classes, plus several really unique ways of multi/dual classing them, making dozens of totally different characters with unique abilities no other class could get. However, in TES games, despite of all those fancy class names, there really are only three classes to play: Fighter, Mage and Assassin. Classes have no unique abilities, and in the end certain skills are basically mandatory to develop.

In general about this thread. I'm very surprised that people rate Skyrim over Oblivion. I personally did enjoy Oblivion, even though the leveled creatures were really stupid and you were practically forced to power-level unless you played a mage (when you could just train your destruction to 100 immediately and cast custom spells doing huge damage while making yourself invisible and thus practically immortal). In Skyrim I played my Orc to level 20, after which nothing could stop me. With berserk on I could two hit dragons and maybe three hit giants. Only enemies which brought some challenge were the dragon priests (of course someone may tell me to play on Legendary difficulty, but as it doesn't do anything but scale damage, I could as well play naked with fists which would be more interesting).

In my opinion the deepest problem in all TES games is the "learn by doing" skill system, which does not really work in any game. Why? The grinding. Usually combat skills develop fairly as you need them all the time, but for some, such as alchemy, enchanting, smithing, speechcraft, merchantile, certain spell schools etc. just force you to artificially repeat them to get the on decent levels to be useful. It really kills the immersion. In Skyrim I managed to rise my smithing to 50 by creating million daggers and armors, and it was boring as hell. Then I stopped.

As much as most of the people would opposite it, I'd completely rework TES skill system into experience based. Thus you would get experience points for killin/questing/doing stuff, and could distribute them on the skills/attributes (yes bring them back) you want. This really would fix most of the TES annoyances. Perhaps you could get some free bonus on those skills you use a lot, but the leveling should absolutely not be based fully on that. I would also include "class perks", of which you could pick only few. This would give different classes unique abilities, and really make you feel like being a witch hunter, nightblade or bard, and not like "general stealthy-mage" kinda mess.

In Morrowind and Oblivion, I'd have given the player always same number of points to distribute on ability scores such that they weren't forced to 5/5/5 to get maximum effectiveness out of their characters. Yes, a bit casual stuff, but would keep the game more balanced.

Anyway I'd rank TES games I've played: Morrowind > (Daggerfall) > Oblivion > Skyrim.

 

[Machocruz]

(but none of them had anything on some of the creative shit you could pull off in the Morag Tong writs in Morrowind).

Like what? I never joined that guild.

 

[Commissar Draco]

As much as most of the people would opposite it, I'd completely rework TES skill system into experience based. Thus you would get experience points for killin/questing/doing stuff, and could distribute them on the skills/attributes (yes bring them back) you want. This really would fix most of the TES annoyances. Perhaps you could get some free bonus on those skills you use a lot, but the leveling should absolutely not be based fully on that. I would also include "class perks", of which you could pick only few. This would give different classes unique abilities, and really make you feel like being a witch hunter, nightblade or bard, and not like "general stealthy-mage" kinda mess.

Already done in Nehrim its not that the engine doesn't support it its just Bethpizda being talentless hacks.

 

[Luzur]

 

[DDZ]

I played Skyrim a bit today, with the Requiem thing.

Uhhh, sure it's harder, things look a little interesting, but so far its not very rewarding. I go through all this trouble to kill some bandits but really I get nothing in return.

I am probably not enough of a RPer.

 

[DraQ]

It's the first time I've seen something that could use a canned laughtrack.

Because I didn't know when to laugh.

I played Skyrim a bit today, with the Requiem thing.

Uhhh, sure it's harder, things look a little interesting, but so far its not very rewarding. I go through all this trouble to kill some bandits but really I get nothing in return.

I am probably not enough of a RPer.

Um, bandits?

They are bandits, you know, what did you expect them to have?

 

[DDZ]

Something of value?

 

[Metro]

Glass weapons and armor like they did in Oblivion. You know... the stuff that's worth thousands upon thousands of gold? Because wealthy people spend their time robbing others at some obscure dirt road.

 

[DDZ]

Jesus Christ, just something that would have made clearing it out worth my while. Would have been happy with a few arrows and some lockpicks.

 

[mastroego]

Try Morrowloot.
Loot will still be scarce, but it'll make more sense - it'll feel more rewarding when you find the good stuff.

Also, it's a poor society for chrissake.
People just live off of animals. You craft your own tools. You're not supposed to find much of value anywhere.

Anyway, with Morrowloot looting will make sense (for the most part, there's still randomly generated content).
You might even find an artifact just sitting there in a museum.

 

[Luzur]

Try Morrowloot.
Loot will still be scarce, but it'll make more sense - it'll feel more rewarding when you find the good stuff.

Also, it's a poor society for chrissake.
People just live off of animals. You craft your own tools. You're not supposed to find much of value anywhere.

Anyway, with Morrowloot looting will make sense (for the most part, there's still randomly generated content).
You might even find an artifact just sitting there in a museum.

Loot should have been fixed abit in Skyrim, i am now at the level where i get Ebony up the ass from almost every chest, i outfitted myself and my companion with full Ebony enchanted gear as i type this, but atleast the enemy isnt armed with full glass stuff when you hit level 30 as in Oblivion (i still cringe at the memories of that game..), at best they have steel but usually iron.

 

[mastroego]

Loot should have been fixed abit in Skyrim, i am now at the level where i get Ebony up the ass from almost every chest, i outfitted myself and my companion with full Ebony enchanted gear as i type this, but atleast the enemy isnt armed with full glass stuff when you hit level 30 as in Oblivion (i still cringe at the memories of that game..), at best they have steel but usually iron.

Maybe it's better if I provide more details.
With Morrowloot the following happens:

• The "common" loot will still be randomly generated BUT
• ... you'll only find Orcish equipment on Orcs, Elvish on Elves and so on, barring a few rare cases
• Artifacts and high tier equipment are indeed hand-placed. I believe there's only ONE set of Ebony Armor in the entire game, for instance.
• You won't be able to craft Ebony and Daedric gear (but you'll still be able to improve it).

What this all means is that you'll likely spend a lot of time in rags and leather, while you refine your skills.
Eventually though, you'll start collecting a few high-tier items here and there, and you'll really feel like you've stumbled into something truly exceptional for the world you live in.

 

[Luzur]

Loot should have been fixed abit in Skyrim, i am now at the level where i get Ebony up the ass from almost every chest, i outfitted myself and my companion with full Ebony enchanted gear as i type this, but atleast the enemy isnt armed with full glass stuff when you hit level 30 as in Oblivion (i still cringe at the memories of that game..), at best they have steel but usually iron.

Maybe it's better if I provide more details.
With Morrowloot the following happens:

• The "common" loot will still be randomly generated BUT
• ... you'll only find Orcish equipment on Orcs, Elvish on Elves and so on, barring a few rare cases
• Artifacts and high tier equipment are indeed hand-placed. I believe there's only ONE set of Ebony Armor in the entire game, for instance.
• You won't be able to craft Ebony and Daedric gear (but you'll still be able to improve it).

What this all means is that you'll likely spend a lot of time in rags and leather, while you refine your skills.
Eventually though, you'll start collecting a few high-tier items here and there, and you'll really feel like you've stumbled into something truly exceptional for the world you live in.

so whats the catch? it cant be that perfect.

its incompatible with half of my mods?, it will burn my processor over time??