Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[Spectacle]

Whatever they do for the next Elder Scrolls game, I hope it won't be overflowing with zombie filled dungeons like Skyrim. Especially not zombies that only come alive as you walk near, that's so amusing after the 200th time.

 

[AW8]

what is there to explore in Skyrim? Nordic meadow, nordic forest, nordic tundra, then another nordic meadow? Yawn.

What is there to explore in Oblivion? Fantasy forest, fantasy fields, fantasy forest, then another fantasy field? Yawn.

Skyrim has 9 different regions and almost all of them have something to make them visually distinct from each other. Oblivion has the majority of its gameworld covered in green fields and green forests. It looks exactly the same freaking everywhere.

 

[Lancehead]

There was one particular dungeon (cave, to be more accurate) in that valley in Dawnguard that was pretty good (that valley itself was well designed); it had good verticality and relatively complex layout, which made sense because it was a natural cave formed over thousands of years. I liked mapping out that cave.

 

[DalekFlay]

You said "They were interesting though, and well designed as linear levels.". But they werent, even for their linear nature which should allow for interesting moments they fail to deliver. Every room is just another room with another draugr, heck i was happy to play the shitty vampire dungeons just to mix it up a tiny little bit, given that they are a bit rare.

I'm saying they were super linear so they're worse than the three games before them had, but at least for linear dungeons they feel unique and well designed. I'm not sure that's "defending" them, since I would have much preferred more open dungeons, but yeah, I guess I thought they were more well designed than you did. Most of them had some hook that differentiated them from the others, to my recollection. A large room with unique architecture, a puzzle, a good enemy encounter or whatever else. 90% of Oblivion's dungeons just had endless Ayleid or fortress rooms in a bunch.

That's a typical trade-off with linearity really, you get more of a designed feel but you lose the openness.

 

[DraQ]

Entering a cave doesn't mean it will stay a cave.

Clearly an indication of a superior game.

Actually, yes. It's very much an indication of a superior game.

If you are interested in anything more than just abstract complexity, then not knowing what you'll find inside is important because this what motivates you to enter in the first place. Especially in, you know, exploration centric game.

Knowing that you're entering an Ayleid ruin #87 where you will encounter pretty much the same rooms and corridors you can encounter in any other such ruin and after tackling generic level-appropriate oppnents you will emerge with level appropriate loot you might as well not bother.

OTOH if you're just interested in abstract complexity, why ever bother with any TES after Daggerfall?
Seriously, why?

Anyway, I've just found a piece going into more detail over the differences between dungeons in both games, including kitbashing. Bonus points for showcasing Oblivion dungeon diversity (pics included):
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Joel.../Skyrims_Modular_Approach_to_Level_Design.php

As for your extended Skyrim fanboyish sperging, this is all I have to reply: you bought, played, enjoyed and are defending a game with linear corridors for dungeons.

First, you got the order wrong. I played, enjoyed and then bought Skyrim, mainly because I'm not a fucking hypocrite to complain about how something I clearly enjoy sucks, but also because in nearly all aspects it's a clear upward trend from oblivion.

Second, nonlinearity is only as good as what you do with it.

Any meager nonlinearity Oblivion dungeons might have had (meager, because most were fucking linear experiences, with at best some detours and dead-end branches, not really much different from Skyrim's in that regard) was wasted by its lack of impact on combat, exploration, looting, sightseeing, or anything else - whether you're given a choice between more of same shit #1 and more of same shit #2 is purely academic distinction and I'm not so easily amused to be entertained by trivial graph traversal.

Skyrim's dungeon's, OTOH tend to have distinctive elements to them and even if the individual sections are cobbled together into what amounts to a corridor, there tends to be structure to them that actually influences gameplay. For example a cavern with a bridge accessible by ramp leading to another section or exit may still be just a corridor, but it allows stuff like archers being placed on a bridge to give them situational advantage which is more than can be said of Oblivion dungeons.

Third, like I said, Skyrim also features outdoor areas that essentially serve the purpose of dungeons and those tend to be non-linear, or at the very least allow choice of approach.

You accepted Bethesda's consoletarded cock up your arse and are now trying to convince other people to take it too, well no thanks and just go back to playing your casual shit.

Please, do lecture me about accepting bethesda's cock, my dear oblivion player.
I'm sure you have a lot of experience to share.

Banalshitboring TES lore. Again, Morrowind was slightly better here, but Oblivion's generic medieval fantasy is actually preferable to me than completely retarded viking theme park of Skyrim

This thread just keeps on giving.


Anyway, regarding blandness, I posted a bunch of screenshot comparisons somewhere in this thread (IIRC).
I can't really be arsed to waste my time to dig them up for you in particular, but if you want to continue this dicksuction, I mean discussion, with any pretense of seriousness, you can feel free to dig them up and top them with less generic oblivion ones.
I can wait.

People enjoying boring shit deserve to be mocked.

Hence we mock you.

 

[Delterius]

Please, do lecture me about accepting bethesda's cock, my dear oblivion player.
I'm sure you have a lot of experience to share.

 

[Revenant]

even if the individual sections are cobbled together into what amounts to a corridor, there tends to be structure

but it allows stuff like archers being placed on a bridge to give them situational advantage

outdoor areas that essentially serve the purpose of dungeons

What is this I don't even. Behold the Codex of 2014, wholeheartedly defending popamole design elements in games. "You know, man, because, it's TES, man". Fuck you.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Can't say I seen them all but they're a few breathtaking dungeons in Skyrim; this Grotto with Forested Hill inside for example near Solitude (which was still much smaller than provincial town of Balmora but its the fault of Consolosis Kwansanisus). Can't remember one dungeon from Oblibion aside from vague memories of trekking thru plastic shit coloured and textured caves.

 

[adddeed]

What is this I don't even. Behold the Codex of 2014, wholeheartedly defending popamole design elements in games. "You know, man, because, it's TES, man". Fuck you.

Skyrim is a good game - fact. Why are you mad bro?

 

[Lhynn]

Skyrim is a good game - fact. Why are you mad bro?

It really isnt, it could have been, and mods somewhat address this, but vanilla is mediocre. The elements that work are decent, the ones that dont bring the whole game crashing down provided you play enough to see them.

Still, its a strong step in the right direction and i feel this what most people here are defending, a lot of codexers had given up, and now they see potential.

 

[Bahamut]

Skyrim had nice outdor areas + Blackreach, but thats it, its gameplay its medicore at best,
though mods can up the salvage ratio p.high, unlike Oblivion that no ammount of mods can fix it

 

[DraQ]

even if the individual sections are cobbled together into what amounts to a corridor, there tends to be structure

but it allows stuff like archers being placed on a bridge to give them situational advantage

outdoor areas that essentially serve the purpose of dungeons

What is this I don't even. Behold the Codex of 2014, wholeheartedly defending popamole design elements in games. "You know, man, because, it's TES, man". Fuck you.

You're new to that reading comprehension business, aren't you.

First, it has nothing to do with it being or not being TES.

Level design has several functions to fulfill:
-providing the sense of place and integration with the setting
-providing gameplay in conjunction with game's mechanics and content
-providing gameplay on its own
-awing player or otherwise providing memorable experience through means other than gameplay

Linearity is bad, not because it's bad, but because non-linearity can be a powerful tool for helping level design fulfill those goals. This also means that non-linearity isn't automatically good. It's only as good as it translates to meeting the above goals.

Now, Oblivion dungeons fail consistently on all counts.

They aren't well integrated. If anything they stick out like sore thumbs, with their artificial complete segregation according to the tilesets, lack of meaningful exteriors or connections to stuff in the gameworld, and so on. Or are you going to tell me how awesome it was that the capital of the Empire didn't have a single functioning fort?
OTOH Skyrim's dungeons are often logical extensions of areas outside, they tend to look lived in, contain tileset kitbashes where it is appropriate, sometimes refer to each other with their content (for example you can find a mention of certain bandit NPCs in their previous hideout that isn't otherwise connected to the quest involving them) etc. Morrowind was even better in that regard.

Oblivion dungeons also fail to provide gameplay in conjunction with game's mechanics and content. Unlike Morrowind you can't find awesome stuff by checking out of the way nooks and crannies. Unlike Daggerfall you can't get lost at the bottom of a dungeon with lethal disease eating away at your flesh. Unlike Skyrim you can't get pelted with arrows or spells from hard to reach location. From this perspective having a maze of rooms and corridors doesn't really add anything while even a single multi-level room does even if it has to be traversed in linear manner.

Obviously, OB dungeons also fail to provide gameplay on their own. Level design directly translating onto gameplay, in separation from other content and mechanics is tricky business. It's hard to make levels anything but excercises in graph traversal, maybe with some puzzle solving and clue picking.
Skyrim doesn't exactly succeed here (and its attempts at puzzles are just plain fucking dire), but neither does Oblivion. Whether or not its dungeon design is more complex and less linear than Skyrim's, it's still way below threshold where navigating dungeon becomes gameplay in itself, like it did in Daggerfall.

Finally, cookie cutter nature of OB dungeons prevents them from ever awing the player with non-gameplay aspects.
Skyrim has largely remedied this, the problem also didn't exist in Morrowind.

So yeah, I will rather play through linear dungeons than non-linear ones that fail to make use of this nonlinearity and fare far worse in all the other aspects.

 

[Turjan]

Finally, cookie cutter nature of OB dungeons prevents them from ever awing the player with non-gameplay aspects.
Skyrim has largely remedied this, the problem also didn't exist in Morrowind.

Some of these elements they built Oblivion dungeons from were just too elaborate. They were recognizable, and you often had several of these very memorable pieces in the same dungeon. Like this natural cave piece with the column and a higher area in the corner with the chest. It was supposed to be a natural cave, but this design decision to just copy the whole thing including all of the detail (sometimes, there were minor variations) made for a weirdly disorienting effect, and it effectively destroyed the suspension of disbelief. It's weird when you catch yourself standing in that corner and ask "Where's the chest?" because someone bothered with removing it in this instance. You could as well go to the same cave over and over, there was no reason to go anywhere else.

Which means that they made all these dungeons for naught, at least in my case.

 

[Carrion]

Skyrim's dungeon's, OTOH tend to have distinctive elements to them and even if the individual sections are cobbled together into what amounts to a corridor, there tends to be structure to them that actually influences gameplay. For example a cavern with a bridge accessible by ramp leading to another section or exit may still be just a corridor, but it allows stuff like archers being placed on a bridge to give them situational advantage which is more than can be said of Oblivion dungeons.

Yes. There's one cave in Skyrim which has high ledges on both sides connected with drawbridges, and there's a river running at the bottom. It's more or less a completely linear "dungeon", but it still allows a bunch of tactical options including avoiding combat by going underwater, sniping enemies from far above them, raising or lowering the bridges to either keep enemies away from you or allow you to engage in close combat, and so on. There are also small side passages that allow you to quickly move from one part of the cave to another, which comes in handy when shooting arrows at half-a-dozen guys below you that would want to put an axe through your face. Oblivion doesn't really have anything like that, because even if some part of a cave might have two or three different entrances, there's no reason to choose one over another. It's always just a flat, boring room anyway.

Skyrim's dungeons also have elements that you kind of take for granted but which Oblivion severely lacks. The aforementioned cave is inhabited by a bunch of smugglers, and it also has fairly comfy-looking living quarters, a small harbor and a ship in it, among other things. Despite the very simple layout it's a dungeon that stands out, looks like it serves a purpose and is something you want to explore thoroughly for stuff like journals and loot. Of course, for every interesting cave you probably get a dozen boring draugr barrows with the same claw puzzles and about two enemy types, but having some interesting and unique dungeons in the mix at least gives you an incentive to enter them in the first place. When entering a dungeon in Oblivion you might as well just take a beeline to the quest marker because you can be sure there's nothing else worth seeing there. A bandit cave might have some bedrolls on the floor to remind you that some people apparently sleep in that miserable hellhole, but that's pretty much the only thing that separates them from a goblin cave, or a troll cave, or a zombie cave.

 

[Cadmus]

And bigger doesn't necessarily mean better. More repetitive content means more boredom. There is a reason why small dungeons are meant to be small. Oblivion's longer crawls only expose the shittiness of level scaling and lack of creativity on part of the devs, while the larger dungeons can't match stuff like Anudnabia, Urshilaku burial, Ibar-Daad, Indoranyon, Hlormaren, Berandas, Kogoruhn, Tukushapal and so on from Morrowind.

Dude what the fuck, you remember the goddamn names of the caves? Tell me you googled this shit...

Clearly an indication of a superior game. As for your extended Skyrim fanboyish sperging, this is all I have to reply: you bought, played, enjoyed and are defending a game with linear corridors for dungeons. You accepted Bethesda's consoletarded cock up your arse and are now trying to convince other people to take it too, well no thanks and just go back to playing your casual shit.

No one ever said Skyrim was perfect, edge-master. The dungeons are indeed way too fucking linear (as were Oblivion's if we're being honest). They were interesting though, and well designed as linear levels. In any case I would agree Oblivion had better dungeons than Skyrim, just not better than Morrowind or what I remember of Daggerfall.

In any case the dungeon debate really misses the point for me personally. I play all three games for the world design, lore and exploration, all of which Skyrim did ten times better than Oblivion (and Morrowind did ten times better than both). It's that simple for me.

I must agree that if I'm being totally honest, I got bored of the Skyrim dungeons really fucking quick and it was a chore going through them in Skyrim so I don't see how anyone can defend that shit.

 

[Turjan]

Oblivion's longer crawls only expose the shittiness of level scaling and lack of creativity on part of the devs, while the larger dungeons can't match stuff like Anudnabia, Urshilaku burial, Ibar-Daad, Indoranyon, Hlormaren, Berandas, Kogoruhn, Tukushapal and so on from Morrowind.

Dude what the fuck, you remember the goddamn names of the caves? Tell me you googled this shit...

I haven't been there in many years, but I think I would be able to find five of those places, starting from the ship, without using Google or a map, and I have a relatively good idea how they look with four of those. I would have to look the other three up. From those I do remember in my head I can agree, yes, those were unique and memorable ones. The very easy ones are the Dunmer fortresses, with Kogoruhn being one of the center pieces of the game. And there is only one place like the Urshilaku Burial Caverns, one of the nicest caves in Morrowind, also from the main quest.

Edit: I'm not sure I have ever been to two of the places I did not recognize. Well...

 

[DraQ]

And bigger doesn't necessarily mean better. More repetitive content means more boredom. There is a reason why small dungeons are meant to be small. Oblivion's longer crawls only expose the shittiness of level scaling and lack of creativity on part of the devs, while the larger dungeons can't match stuff like Anudnabia, Urshilaku burial, Ibar-Daad, Indoranyon, Hlormaren, Berandas, Kogoruhn, Tukushapal and so on from Morrowind.

Dude what the fuck, you remember the goddamn names of the caves? Tell me you googled this shit...

I had to look up how Tukushapal was named and checked Anudnabia to not make a typo.

It's a testament to game's quality, actually, that it had all these dungeons that were memorable enough that their names got tied to the memories of the experience.
There are also places like Rotheran (ancient dunmer stronghold hollowed out by a bunch of sick fucks organizing arena fights using slaves), Arkngthand (the first MQ dungeon and a dwemer ruin), and, obviously, Mudan grotto.

From memorable, but more baseline dungons you've got places like Palansour (summoning ritual gone wrong + clue for finding Ibar-Daad), and Sargon (otherwise normal bandit cave, but with extensive network of waterways and underwater caverns).

OTOH I don't think I can remember any dungeon in OB other than Vilverin (because it's effectively baby's first dungeon, and Beth's frontloading made it one of the very few dungeons with any effort at backstory put into them) and that cave filled with Argonians.

 

[Turjan]

I had to look up how Tukushapal was named and checked Anudnabia to not make a typo.

You should have checked Ibar-Dad, as I forgot that one and had to look it up.

OTOH I don't think I can remember any dungeon in OB other than Vilverin (because it's effectively baby's first dungeon...

You never needed another one. Also, it reset as soon as you moved your ass out of the door.

 

[DraQ]

I had to look up how Tukushapal was named and checked Anudnabia to not make a typo.

You should have checked Ibar-Dad, as I forgot that one and had to look it up.

Ah, yes, I wondered how many 'a's were there but couldn't be arsed to check. My bad.

 

[adddeed]

Gotta play Morrowind one of these days. I bought it and its expansions on release day, but never finished Tribunal or Bloodmoon, or did much else besides the main quest in Morrowind, because my PC was running the game choppy and i said i'll play once i upgrade. Never did.

When i finish with Divinity 2 hopefully.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Gotta play Morrowind one of these days. I bought it and its expansions on release day, but never finished Tribunal or Bloodmoon, or did much else besides the main quest in Morrowind, because my PC was running the game choppy and i said i'll play once i upgrade. Never did.

When i finish with Divinity 2 hopefully.

Tribunal is best left unfinished. The whole expansion back feels like a bad MMO. Almost no exploration, boring locations, supergoblins that would kill Vivec in seconds and terrible MQ writing (Almalexia is a really bad character, especially when compared to Vivec), it ruined the other two memebers of the Tribunal for me and I can say for sure that I'd be happier if I never played it. The best way to play Tribunal is to explore the pretty city, sell your items to shopkeepers that for a change actually have money, talk to Bareniah for a bit and then quit.

 

[DalekFlay]

Tribunal is best left unfinished. The whole expansion back feels like a bad MMO. Almost no exploration, boring locations, supergoblins that would kill Vivec in seconds and terrible MQ writing (Almalexia is a really bad character, especially when compared to Vivec), it ruined the other two memebers of the Tribunal for me and I can say for sure that I'd be happier if I never played it. The best way to play Tribunal is to explore the pretty city, sell your items to shopkeepers that for a change actually have money, talk to Bareniah for a bit and then quit.

Good analysis of its flaws. However I would say exploring the underground a bit is worth a trip as well.

 

[Lemming42]

I wouldn't mind Tribunal so much if only the designers had put any thought at all into the enemies. The goblins are unstoppable and the Dark Brotherhood are a joke. Mournhold is visually good, but spending 9 years running across its various plazas and courtyards quickly becomes absolute bullshit.

On the other hand, I liked the Clockwork City even if it was pretty linear, that giant Optimus Prime thing you have to fight was cool and Trueflame or whatever Nerevar's sword was called is really good too. So it's kind of worth playing once I guess.

 

[Carrion]

Tribunal is mostly wasted potential. The change of scenery is great and the premise is super interesting. Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Helseth, Barenziah, the Dark Brotherhood, oh yes, bring it on! Tribunal being set in a city (especially when that city is Mournhold) would've offered a great chance to depart from the "normal" Morrowind gameplay and instead fully focus on political meddling in an urban setting. Instead the whole setting is wasted when you're simply sent into one dungeon after another, which is pretty much like the original Morrowind except with much less freedom and room for exploration. The plot is a mess and many seemingly important things (like the DB) are just handwaved away. Mournhold is pretty disappointing as well, because even though it looks great, the actual city consists of a couple of small, empty, depopulated areas. Almost every person seems to be involved in a quest and as a result the city feels smaller than some of Vivec's cantons.

It's still worth playing because it wraps up the main story, introduces some very interesting characters and has some really nice locations, but it definitely is the weaker of the expansions. I kind of wish Bethesda would try to do something like it again, though.

 

[DalekFlay]

Mournhold is pretty disappointing as well, because even though it looks great, the actual city consists of a couple of small, empty, depopulated areas. Almost every person seems to be involved in a quest and as a result the city feels smaller than some of Vivec's cantons.

Lore wise it was just the very center of the city though, there was supposed to be a massive actual city right outside the walls. Basically you were in Time's Square, not New York.

What could have been awesome was setting the whole thing in one massive city, no dungeons. Lots of quests taking you through alleyways and ghettos rather than tunnels and shit. I would assume they didn't think the engine was up for that though, and it probably wasn't.