Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[Lhynn]

Actually Renevant has a point, i did enjoy exploring most of the dungeons in oblivion, lots of hidden passages in some of them. They had branching paths and were mostly lost to most people due to the stupid easy difficulty. With obscuros mod i actually had a blast in some of them.

Its just that anything outside of the dungeons sucked so hard that im not even sure it can be seen as a redeeming feature, towns would have been better off as a simple interface where you just buy and sell shit.

 

[Lancehead]

What was annoying is unkillable camp commanders after the Civil War ending. Also it was a pity that I could not slaughter Ulric's general who suggested I should "prove" myself by killing some insignificant critter in the middle of nowhere.

Actually, that's a reference to PGE 1st ed., which says killing an ice wraith was a Nord tradition before being accepted as full citizens. The Stormcloaks call themselves the true sons of Skyrim, so it makes sense that they'd honour that tradition.

After main quest, that is.

But this bit makes it stupid.

 

[Bio Force Ape]

Didn't Bethesda admit Oblivion's dungeons sucked? Didn't they admit it was at least partially due to the fact that they had one guy who made them all for the entire game? And it wasn't just the same 3 "tilesets" (or whatever), it was the total lack of enemy variety. You enter an Oblivion dungeon and the first enemy you encounter is a zombie? You know you're going to encounter nothing but zombies from then on. And it will always be 1 every 20-30 feet. Kill him, walk 30 feet, oh there's another zombie. Do that 12 more times and you've cleared the dungeon.

 

[Lhynn]

Didn't Bethesda admit Oblivion's dungeons sucked? Didn't they admit it was at least partially due to the fact that they had one guy who made them all for the entire game? And it wasn't just the same 3 "tilesets" (or whatever), it was the total lack of enemy variety. You enter an Oblivion dungeon and the first enemy you encounter is a zombie? You know you're going to encounter nothing but zombies from then on. And it will always be 1 every 20-30 feet. Kill him, walk 30 feet, oh there's another zombie. Do that 12 more times and you've cleared the dungeon.

Yeah, encounter design in that game was shit, but level design in some of the dungeons was decent enough.

 

[DalekFlay]

It's not shortcut exits themselves that make dungeons bad, you moron. The overall design and complexity of the dungeon is what counts in the end. This is a typical dungeon of Morrowind:

You can't cherry-pick random examples like that and expect me to respond in any kind of serious way, can you? Let me post a picture of Mournhold's underground, probably the biggest dungeon in any game of this type, compared to some random three-room dungeon from Oblivion. Evidence, bitch! So fucking stupid.

All three games have good and bad dungeons. I play all three games relatively often, so I'm not ignorant to Oblivion's good stuff. The Mehrune's Razor add-on pack has a dungeon in it that might be one of the best of all three games. However on the whole Morrowind had much more interesting, long and well-designed dungeons for my money. And no secret exits back to the start, either.

The problem with Skyrim's writing is the absolute lack of originality and inspiration, making every quest completely forgettable in the long run. For example, Oblivion had this quest about a painter trapped in his painting by a magical brush he was using, which shows that writers of Oblivion at least had some creative aspirations for their game to stand out and be original. Not a single quest in Skyrim is memorable in this way, because everything is just unbearably boring tradishunal fantasy "go get the family dagger from dungeon X" stuff.

Oh for fuck's sake, all three games are full of that shit, as is every open world RPG of this type. Using that as a dig at Skyrim and pretending Morrowind and Oblivion weren't the same exact way is true purposeful ignorance on a weirdly massive scale. The painting quest in Oblivion is one of a small handful of "different" ones, which all three games have. Skyrim has the Sheogorath quest, the Sanguine quest, both of which are odd and take you to odd places, and a few more I am sure. In all three games those are the unique ones you remember because most others are the same old shit.

What makes these games fun is lore, world design and exploring both. That's why we call them explorefag games around here. Morrowind gave good explorefag because its world and lore were fucking out of this world good. Skyrim gives decent explorefag because its world and lore are pretty decent, and the better combat makes it more fun for action game fans. Oblivion has a shit world and bad writing most of the time, which makes it disappointing. If you want to defend Oblivion tell me why its writing isn't shit fucking terrible and why its world isn't the most boring high fantasy land I've ever seen. THAT I'll debate you on, not this other stupid cherry-picking bullshit that ignores what all three games are all about.

 

[DalekFlay]

I usually don't do that either, but it's still something you should be able to do in a "go anywhere, do anything" type of game where killing things is the primary way of interacting with the game world. I can understand making a couple of absolutely plot-critical NPCs essential, because making every NPC killable puts huge restrictions on storytelling among other things, put having a bunch of seemingly insignificant immortals walking the streets of every town effectively kills any kind of simulation of an actual world. Mostly it just comes off as laziness ― certain NPCs need to be alive so that quests can be completed in the exact way that the devs intended, because no other way exists. In Morrowind it at least was possible to instantly complete or fail a quest if a certain character was dead, and in many cases there were alternate routes, although MW too got a bit lazy with the main quest in some parts (for instance, you could "fail" the main quest by killing a seemingly unrelated slave trader who would play a very small part in a later part of the main quest and whose death should in no way hinder you).

I'm not defending it, just saying I don't run into the issue that often.

New Vegas proves you can do the same exact type of game with no essential NPCs, if you create quests the right way. And that is why it's a great game.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The magical paintbrush quest was a fun idea, but the mission itself consists of killing three trolls in a forested corridor. Meh. I had a bit of fun with it though, because I did it at a high level (turning the trolls into miniature Godzillas thanks to level scaling), which forced me to fully utilize the "poison" (acetone) that the painter gives you to weaken the trolls.

The one where you enter a sleeping mage's nightmare was cool. Also that quest where you track down the sociopathic mages' guild teacher that sent the noobier students to a watery grave by giving them a ring supposedly enchanted with water-breathing (it wasn't). And the all-female bandit gang that stole from married men so they wouldn't report the crime to the guards. There are a bunch of interesting setups for quests in the game, shame the terribru gameplay brings it down.

 

[AW8]

New Vegas proves you can do the same exact type of game with no essential NPCs, if you create quests the right way. And that is why it's a great game.

Supporting the NCR? Hated by the Legion? Feeling like doing the logical thing (for an invincible murderhobo anyway) and killing Caesar? Go to the Fort, fight through the hostile Legionaries and kill Caesar.

Supporting the Empire of Tamriel? Hated by the Stormcloaks? Feeling like doing the logical thing and killing Ulfric? Go to Windhelm, receive generic greetings from the guards and hear the unkillable Ulfric talk strategy with you like a senile old man.

Spoiler

 

[Revenant]

You can't cherry-pick random examples like that and expect me to respond in any kind of serious way, can you? Let me post a picture of Mournhold's underground, probably the biggest dungeon in any game of this type, compared to some random three-room dungeon from Oblivion. Evidence, bitch! So fucking stupid.

Oh FFS, I linked representative dungeons and lists of dungeon maps for both games, but you seem not to bother to at least skim through them. Yes, Morrowind had a few huge-ass dungeons but I was talking about average size of dungeons, which is 3 sequential rooms in Morrowind and a much larger, sometimes multi-floored maze with multiple pathways in Oblivion.

However on the whole Morrowind had much more interesting, long and well-designed dungeons for my money.

Longer dungeons? On the whole? Dude, just take a look at those maps. Morrowind's dungeons are almost always short and banalshitboring with a few notable exceptions.

Oh for fuck's sake, all three games are full of that shit, as is every open world RPG of this type.

Wait what, "every open world RPG of this type"? Did you ever play Gothic?

Using that as a dig at Skyrim and pretending Morrowind and Oblivion weren't the same exact way is true purposeful ignorance on a weirdly massive scale. The painting quest in Oblivion is one of a small handful of "different" ones, which all three games have. Skyrim has the Sheogorath quest, the Sanguine quest, both of which are odd and take you to odd places, and a few more I am sure. In all three games those are the unique ones you remember because most others are the same old shit.

Clockwork Knight pointed out more very well written quests in Oblivion in the above post that I seem to have forgotten. However, in Skyrim I haven't ran into a well written quest in 10+ hours of gameplay, and you know what? If you have to play a shitty game for days before you get one or two well written quests, then maybe the game can go fuck itself, I'm not wasting that much time on banalshitboring crap.

What makes these games fun is lore, world design and exploring both. That's why we call them explorefag games around here. Morrowind gave good explorefag because its world and lore were fucking out of this world good. Skyrim gives decent explorefag because its world and lore are pretty decent, and the better combat makes it more fun for action game fans. Oblivion has a shit world and bad writing most of the time, which makes it disappointing. If you want to defend Oblivion tell me why its writing isn't shit fucking terrible and why its world isn't the most boring high fantasy land I've ever seen. THAT I'll debate you on, not this other stupid cherry-picking bullshit that ignores what all three games are all about.

Skyrim's world pretty decent? Oh wow you have some low standards. The whole fucking world of that game is either a Nordic meadow, forest or icy terrain, "something that denizens of Sweden see every day" as someone has put it. And fuck your strawmen, I never said Oblivion's world was better but its dungeons and particularly quests are way better than Skyrim's, thus making Skyrim a worse game than Oblivion which was the original statement.

 

[DalekFlay]

I can't even fathom how anyone could think anything is more boring and banal than Oblivion's world.

Amyway, I'm done masturbating with you. I think you're insane but you can live on, dismissing me and reveling in self-satisfaction that Oblivion is a hidden masterpiece of interesting writing and design. Surely a divine realization I could never hope to understand.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Morrowind's dungeons tend to be more plain because most of them are dunmer tombs and natural caves and as such don't get too crazy with the design, which is both good (realistic) and bad (realism can get boring).

 

[Revenant]

I think you're insane but you can live on, dismissing me and reveling in self-satisfaction that Oblivion is a hidden masterpiece of interesting writing and design.

It is you, bro, who is insane here because I have never claimed that Oblivion is a masterpiece of any sort.

 

[DalekFlay]

It is you, bro, who is insane here because I have never claimed that Oblivion is a masterpiece of any sort.

You said it had interesting writing and world design. I think both those statements are insane. Calling Skyrim and Morrowind the "banalshitboring" ones when all of Oblivion looks like my backyard and sounds like a 10 year old wrote it is just... fuck man, I can't handle the insanity of that, sorry. I'm usually up for a debate but I just can't.

I'll summon DraQ for you, he likes this shit more than I do.

 

[TheCatsofSanktPetersburg]

This almost deserves its own thread:

 

[Sceptic]

Morrowind does have some actual problems that may lead to fucking up your game or making you miss important parts of the game

I honestly can't understand why this is a problem. You make a mistake, you suffer the consequences. Morrowind was absolutely brilliant about this because, due to the way its mechanics worked, there was no way to truly lock yourself out of the MQ. Of course, if you decide to throw away a named unique item, or to kill an NPC and then ignore the big message that shows up and says "You have locked yourself out of the MQ", then surprise surprise you will miss out on some content. But that's why the back door exists, so that even if you do that you still have a way to finish the MQ (complete with unique quests and dialogue that you can only see this way). And if you're truly trying hard to lock yourself out by killing the one and only NPC who is truly essential, you can STILL complete the MQ if you have the metaknowledge (or have figured things out in-game before killing said essential NPC) and can boost your stats high enough (trivial with the broken MW system). There's really no way to truly lock yourself out in MW unless you actively try, or ignore the many tools available to you to proceed anyway.

 

[Revenant]

I said some of Oblivion's quests had good writing, which is much more than can be said about Skyrim, and Oblivion's dungeons were for the most part better than Morrowind's and certainly better than Skyrim's. I never said Oblivion was a good game on its own (or any other TES game for that matter, in my opinion). Stop making shit up and listen to what people actually say.

 

[Xeon]

IIRC Dwarven Ruins in Skyrim are pretty huge with multiple levels and sections and I think that you could travel the region of Skyrim from underground. Never tried it and I don't know why anyone would want to do that but I think its possible if you open the gates to the surface.

 

[DalekFlay]

I said some of Oblivion's quests had good writing, which is much more than can be said about Skyrim, and Oblivion's dungeons were for the most part better than Morrowind's and certainly better than Skyrim's. I never said Oblivion was a good game on its own (or any other TES game for that matter, in my opinion). Stop making shit up and listen to what people actually say.

I listened to what you said. You find Oblivion's writing and world design better than Skyrim's. I think that's insane. No matter how many times you repeat yourself or act like I didn't get it my assessment of your stance isn't changing.

 

[DalekFlay]

This almost deserves its own thread:

Christ those lighting and depth of field mods look like ass.

 

[TheCatsofSanktPetersburg]

Christ those lighting and depth of field mods look like ass.

The dunmers playing the bongo drums compensate for that.

 

[Eyeball]

Which brings me back to an older question: What the fuck happened with Bethesda between Morrowind and Oblivion? Did a devastating and yet strangely specific plague wipe out all the imaginative and competent writers they had on staff or was Oblivion, FO3 and Skyrim written by focus group consensus?

 

[Revenant]

You find Oblivion's writing and world design better than Skyrim's.

Where did I say Oblivion's world design is better than Skyrim's, you dumbshit? Stop making shit up. I was only talking about dungeon design which is obviously better in Oblivion because dungeon's can't really get any worse than linear corridors of Skyrim. World design is pretty equally atrocious in both Oblivion and Skyrim.

As to the writing, I and other people have pointed out a handful of well written quests in Oblivion, namely:

- the painting quest
- the water breathing ring quest
- the a la Innsmouth village quest
- the bandit women quest
- the mage dream quest
- the murders in the Nord town quest

You mention 2 interesting quests in Skyrim, both of which seem to be too obscure to get to early in game. If I have to play tens of hours through boring content to get to 2 interesting quests, fuck you.

So, to wrap all up: considering Skyrim builds heavily on Oblivion in all regards, it has worse writing and much worse dungeons by comparison, while excelling in nothing. Clearly, Oblivion, being total shit as it is, is still a better game than Skyrim, which was my original statement.

 

[Carrion]

I honestly can't understand why this is a problem.

I wasn't talking about screwing up your game by being an obvious idiot, but clear oversights on the part of devs when it comes to designing the structure of certain parts of the game. I do consider it a problem if exploring or talking to an average-looking NPC makes you jump several stages ahead in some quest so that you have no idea of finding out what you're supposed to be even doing (which is a fairly common occurrence in any multi-part quest in any Bethesda game, really), or simply breaks the main quest for reasons that should not exist. These are minor issues that most player will probably never run into, but they still exist. Being able to fail the main quest is not in itself a problem because the game does indeed go out of its way to remain beatable even if the player goes berserk and murders every important person on the island. My point was that if you want to bitch about the ways you can ruin your Morrowind game, at least bitch about the ones that are actually unwanted.

 

[Turjan]

This almost deserves its own thread:

While I agree pretty much with everything the guy said, it would have made more impact if he had used a version of Morrowind that is truer to the original than that heavily modded version.

 

[Turjan]

Which brings me back to an older question: What the fuck happened with Bethesda between Morrowind and Oblivion? Did a devastating and yet strangely specific plague wipe out all the imaginative and competent writers they had on staff or was Oblivion, FO3 and Skyrim written by focus group consensus?

They discovered where the money pot is.