Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns Pre-Release Thread

[Ulminati]

Harebugged Schemes.

That sounds just like Fallout Mew Vegas, KotOR2 and the other bug-ridden rush jobs your beloved Obsidian churns out.

It seems to me the only difference between the game you love and the game you loathe is that HBS developers aren't rumored to love the cock.

 

[Xenich]

How did they mishandle the management and what cut corners?

They really ought to be in beta now, focusing on fixing bugs and polishing content, and not adding anything else.

Cut corners would be things like save anywhere, no system for handling loot, lack of ammo types, any pet feature you wish they'd have but don't.

I have to agree with Roguey on this one, they dropped the ball. Missing key features as such shows poor planning/development/budgeting. Unless Microsoft is chipping in with testing resources, they are too close to release to be at this stage of development. They really should be nearing final iterations of late beta at this stage. Unless by some miracle they are extraordinary designers with inhuman development skills (which if they were, the missing feature implementation wouldn't have been a problem), the game is likely to be extremely buggy and contain a troubled release.

Now it may not be them entirely, there may be some influence by Microsoft which led to this which we don't know about (often a contention when dealing with such mainstream companies and Microsoft has a history of screwing over the studios), but it is what it is.

I do like many things about the game, but the issues I have seen so far makes me very leery. It has all the warning signs of a well intended title that will miss its mark.

Maybe I am wrong, I hope I am. I would rather it turn out to be a solid game with a smooth release and no hitches with Microsoft involvement, but... well... I stopped being so optimistic in my youth.

 

[Infinitron]

This has little to do with Microsoft and more to do with this game being LOW BUDGET AS FUCK. They splooged all their money on those luscious 2D graphics that most of the Codex was fapping to a few months ago.

 

[Xenich]

This has little to do with Microsoft and more to do with this game being LOW BUDGET AS FUCK. They splooged all their money on those luscious 2D graphics that most of the Codex was fapping to a few months ago.

So then... poor planning/budgeting then? Which if so, that is even worse as you can take extreme talent and if it isn't coordinated well, you get fast food style cuisine.

 

[Jarpie]

You know...it's not anything new that games go over the budget, not that I'm defending them but it's understandable.

 

[almondblight]

Could very well be that HBS was running into money issues when they launched the Kickstarter (which seemed to come out of nowhere). They seem to have a decent size office and number of staff, and I wonder how much their iOS releases brought in. Strikefleet Omega seemed to try to squeeze whatever money it could from the player:

The real pity is that it’s impossible to divorce the quality of Strikefleet’s gameplay from the obtrusiveness of its commercial side. The game features both in-game adverts andIAPs – a cheeky gambit straight out of the Dick Dastardly & Muttley school of app monetization. Besides the ads, there’s not one but two different forms of in-game currency, and many of the exciting-looking weapons and gizmos are locked away behind one currency that drops about as frequently as a eunuch’s trousers.

Seems like a company that'd fight hard for DRM-free games, no?

I'm cautiously optimistic about this game, but seeing as it hasn't even been in development for a year and they're getting ready to release it, I wouldn't be surprised if the initial release was more of a beta.

 

[Xenich]

You know...it's not anything new that games go over the budget, not that I'm defending them but it's understandable.

Sure, this happens, but the fact that it does happen does not justify it when it does happen.


I know I am being hard on them, but the market needs this or we will end up with the same old garbage again being excused with the same old excuses.

 

[Roguey]

Harebugged Schemes.

That sounds just like Fallout Mew Vegas, KotOR2 and the other bug-ridden rush jobs your beloved Obsidian churns out.

My beloved Obsidian, whom I often refer to as Absurdian.

It seems to me the only difference between the game you love and the game you loathe is that HBS developers aren't rumored to love the cock.

What gives you the impression I'm going to loathe this? This is my second most anticipated Kickstarter project.

This has little to do with Microsoft and more to do with this game being LOW BUDGET AS FUCK. They splooged all their money on those luscious 2D graphics that most of the Codex was fapping to a few months ago.

The improved modding tools also deserve a large amount of blame. They could have just kept them rough as originally intended, but no, they had to go all NWN.

 

[AstroZombie]

Was this mentioned? Double Fine(also using MOAI) had trouble implementing the save system on their game: http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/8271/

 

[Infinitron]

Was this mentioned? Double Fine(also using MOAI) had trouble implementing the save system on their game: http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/8271/

Oh man. MOAI won't be getting any repeat customers I suspect.

 

[tuluse]

That looks nice but it's laughable how they're within two months of release and they're still not feature complete. All those cut corners and the management was still mishandled. Hope you like bugs because this is probably going to ship with a ton of them. Harebugged Schemes.

I like RPGs, I can definitely handle bugs.

 

[Zetor]

Yeah, I read about that Moai bit earlier. It's a pity, since it's LUA-based, meaning modders could rewrite pretty much the entire game if they wanted to.

I actually think the improved modding tools are a pretty good selling point. Would anyone care about NWN1/2 if they just came with the OC? Personally, I wouldn't be anywhere near as interested in the game if it was just a straight-up tRPG in the Shadowrun universe. I'm planning on creating a fairly big campaign with the editor myself, based on the shenanigans of my SR gaming group...

also,

That looks nice but it's laughable how they're within two months of release and they're still not feature complete. All those cut corners and the management was still mishandled. Hope you like bugs because this is probably going to ship with a ton of them. Harebugged Schemes.

I like RPGs, I can definitely handle bugs.

I think all shadowrunners are expected to handle bugs.

Spoiler

 

[Roguey]

Would anyone care about NWN1/2 if they just came with the OC?

Possibly. We have no idea what they'd be like had they not had to spend so many resources making a user-friendly toolset.

Though NWN2's wasn't so friendly. A story Sawyer enjoys telling is how, shortly after NWN2's release, people in the forums were in an uproar about the toolset and requested that Obsidian release the tools they used to make the OC. Sawyer told 'em the tools they used were in fact much worse.

 

[Zetor]

Would anyone care about NWN1/2 if they just came with the OC?

Possibly. We have no idea what they'd be like had they not had to spend so many resources making a user-friendly toolset.

I think you're overestimating how much effort it really took for HBS to create a user-friendly editor. For one, it doesn't take too much time from anyone but the programmers... and more importantly, it was done as part of the process of creating the devs' own toolchain, which they had to do anyway. You'd have a point if you were talking about a game (or series) that already had an established engine with the appropriate dev-only tools, but that's not the case here. They have explicitly stated in the past that they're using the editor themselves to create all of the game's content.

Sure, if you're not releasing the editor, you can have annoying bugs in it that all the writers are aware of (and work around them), but otherwise, if you design the toolchain from the ground up, there shouldn't be a huge overhead at all. If they knew from day 0 that they weren't going to release their own internal editor, how would've that improved the game? It could've shaved off a few weeks of programmer/QA time (and possibly cost some extra content developer time due to a worse-quality editor), and that's it.

 

[taxalot]

You are not taking into account the fact that the toolset was designed for people who had not much programming knowledge and who wanted to throw together a map within a matter of seconds. I highly doubt that this would have been the priviledged option had the game been developped without this release in mind. Of course it does limit developpers with what they can do.

 

[Zetor]

You are not taking into account the fact that the toolset was designed for people who had not much programming knowledge and who wanted to throw together a map within a matter of seconds. I highly doubt that this would have been the priviledged option had the game been developped without this release in mind. Of course it does limit developpers with what they can do.

And I highly doubt HBS' own content creators have such l33t programming skills themselves. Besides, hard-coding stuff instead of creating a solid scripting API and accomplishing the same stuff there doesn't make for a better game, either...

e: I guess my point is: even if you have a 'user-friendly' editor, you aren't necessarily losing versatility and power. In fact, a user-friendly editor should make creating the official campaign a lot easier/faster/more efficient.

 

[Roguey]

I think you're overestimating how much effort it really took for HBS to create a user-friendly editor. For one, it doesn't take too much time from anyone but the programmers... and more importantly, it was done as part of the process of creating the devs' own toolchain, which they had to do anyway. You'd have a point if you were talking about a game (or series) that already had an established engine with the appropriate dev-only tools, but that's not the case here. They have explicitly stated in the past that they're using the editor themselves to create all of the game's content.

Sure, if you're not releasing the editor, you can have annoying bugs in it that all the writers are aware of (and work around them), but otherwise, if you design the toolchain from the ground up, there shouldn't be a huge overhead at all. If they knew from day 0 that they weren't going to release their own internal editor, how would've that improved the game? It could've shaved off a few weeks of programmer/QA time (and possibly cost some extra content developer time due to a worse-quality editor), and that's it.

Time is so tight they literally can't support the ability to save anywhere despite wanting to. Programming resources spent on making their tools more user friendly could have been spent there.

 

[evdk]

I think you're overestimating how much effort it really took for HBS to create a user-friendly editor. For one, it doesn't take too much time from anyone but the programmers... and more importantly, it was done as part of the process of creating the devs' own toolchain, which they had to do anyway. You'd have a point if you were talking about a game (or series) that already had an established engine with the appropriate dev-only tools, but that's not the case here. They have explicitly stated in the past that they're using the editor themselves to create all of the game's content.

Sure, if you're not releasing the editor, you can have annoying bugs in it that all the writers are aware of (and work around them), but otherwise, if you design the toolchain from the ground up, there shouldn't be a huge overhead at all. If they knew from day 0 that they weren't going to release their own internal editor, how would've that improved the game? It could've shaved off a few weeks of programmer/QA time (and possibly cost some extra content developer time due to a worse-quality editor), and that's it.

Time is so tight they literally can't support the ability to save anywhere despite wanting to. Programming resources spent on making their tools more user friendly could have been spent there.

They have hyped the editor too much for that to happen.

 

[Roguey]

They have hyped the editor too much for that to happen.

Yeah, it's too late now. I'm saying maybe the "Better editor at $1 million!" stretch goal shouldn't have been a thing.

 

[evdk]

You will be able to make PnP level adventures using our editor has been a major part of their campaign though, so a "better editor" stretch goal made sense from that perspective. They mostly messed up resource allocation which is classic mismanagement and would have probably happened regardless of what features they would have promised (Unless the stretch goals were along the lines of "more money - less bugs" I guess).

 

[Zetor]

^ Pretty much. I think we can all agree that HBS bit off more than they can chew, and are struggling a bit... but at least they're struggling instead of saying "fuck it".

An editor also isn't something you can 'patch into' a game if you want to get the most out of the mod community anyway (especially if you built your game without an editor in mind, like JA2). Yeah, there are plenty of mod communities around games that have terrible mod support and hardcoded everything (JA2 again), but IMO releasing an editor is a huge potential differentiator and free publicity/marketing. Without an editor, SRR would be 'just another indie nu-XCOM clone with a Shadowrun skin and some dialogs'.

Also, I personally want a highly-moddable tRPG to come out, so going with a strong editor is obviously the right choice.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Also, I personally want a highly-moddable tRPG to come out, so going with a strong editor is obviously the right choice.

Highly modable is still up in the air, at the moment it's almost a given that you can only use (for your modules) the resources the game ships with or puts out on DLC's for your modules, no custom user created tile sets. Modding the game features themselves, like the rule set itself, is down to editing files out of the editor and not easily done for anyone without the proper knowledge.

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

This reminds me of when VD was pointing out he thought it took 3 years to make a good RPG from scratch. I don't mind the kickstarter model, but my worry has always been that without ace management, the deadlines they set were too tight.

 

[almondblight]

HBS is used to pretty quick production schedules. Their pirate game was just a few months, Strike Fleet Omega around 9 or 10. This will be...what, 14 when it comes out? Granted, those games weren't terribly complex, but I don't think that SRR will be either. I wouldn't be surprised if a few missions are like the combat demo we saw - talk to a couple of people on the street, kill a couple of people on the street, go into a building and do the same, finish mission. I'm just hoping that it serves as a good base for the community made modules and expansions.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Fuck, what a shame that they have barely begun making this great game and it's already going to be rushed from now on. There is no chance in hell that someone can create something very long-lived in so little time.