Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns Pre-Release Thread

[Alex]

Sorry if I am late for the ammo discussion, but I found this interesting comment from James Maliszewski that I thought was somewhat relevant:

One of the things I loved about Holmes -- and the thing that hooked me forever -- was the equipment list. And I mean loved. That list sealed my fate forever. You see, it was that list that helped everything fall into place for me. Without it, D&D might appear to be just a fairly complex board game, with characters and monsters just being different types of "pieces." Remember, too, that I had played Dungeon! and that brilliant game does just that -- makes a board game of dungeon delving.

Throw in an equipment list, though, and suddenly (for me at any rate) the essence of D&D is clear: this is a game about outfitting an imaginary expedition into a fantastic underworld filled with mythological beasts and legendary treasures. Why else would their be entries and costs for 50' rope, small boats, sacks of various sizes, iron spikes, and weeks' worth of rations? Take a moment to think about that. Weeks' worth of rations. This isn't some quick smash and grab operation, but rather a carefully planned foray into the unknown. It was like nothing else I'd ever seen or even imagined -- Lewis & Clark setting off into the ruins of Zothique by way of the Hammer horror films. What's not to love?

He is talking about D&D, true, but I kinda think this is important for Shadowrun too. Planning for the runs, that is.

 

[Jaesun]

Harebrained Schemes ‏@WeBeHarebrained4m
JC Hutchins shares a little about his contribution to the #SRReturns Short Story Anthology, Cherry Bomb. #shadowrun http://bit.ly/14acNnf

 

[sser]

Never played Shadowrun before. Never even read about it or looked much at it. Those screenshots look pretty wicked, but the XCOM UI they went with is kind of a bummer.

Also, personal opinion, but I believe that infinite ammo is stupid and lazy, usually no matter the genre, and only works to take away from the gameplay. There are many interesting nuances that having ammo creates. Making the resource infinite means those nuances no longer exist, and that many aspects of the game will literally always be the same, and that's kind of detrimental to a game's long term playability. No more tense moments of conserving ammunition. No more bloody shootouts that end with people fighting hand-to-hand. No sense of attrition, at all. No long-term costs for using suppressing fire.Always taking shots with terrible angles, as the game nullified any notion of risk-reward. No saving ammunition for a better angle and killshots. Also, no inkling of long-term planning, strategic or tactical. No heavy-hitters you keep in reserve. (Also, the idea of reserve units is now very limited, if not kaput.) No gun and ammo-runners. No specialized roles that you created. The list goes on.

Every single time you had a cool moment in a game because some dude was forced to do something because of the element of ammo, they're gone now. Sure, these moments don't occur all the time, but at least they can occur. Some people are willing to eliminate the mechanic because they're lazy shits. A strategy game having a breather for you to manage ammo is not a bad thing. Go play the new XCOM where ammo might as well not even exist on the interface and, even though I played its hardest difficulty, not once did it factor into anything I did.

Strategy games, and RPGs to a similar extent, are about managing resources. Maybe it's just me, but ammunition is kind of a big deal if your strategy elements include guns. Turning modern strategy games into John Woo films is fucking stupid and you should all feel bad for buying into it.

 

[Jaesun]

Never played Shadowrun before. Never even read about it or looked much at it. Those screenshots look pretty wicked, but the XCOM UI they went with is kind of a bummer.

Some reading if you are interested about the setting:

Setting

Timeline - Of note: Shadowrun Returns takes place in 2054. Also the timeline of The Awakening and the Unexplained Genetic Expression (UGE) are on here.

Corporations

System

 

[Gozma]

Go play the new XCOM where ammo might as well not even exist on the interface and, even though I played its hardest difficulty, not once did it factor into anything I did.

There is no way that the tiny "clips" and heavy reloading in XCOM didn't affect shit you did dude. I think 4 or 5 shots per reload (1 less for heavies), suppression takes 1/2-2/3 of a "clip", reloads take your entire combat turn. I made decisions based on reloading at least once per fight, at least in the early game phases before the design errors they made dominate the gameplay. OTOH I know ammo quartermastering for standard-issue arms in X-Com was a gigantic pain in the dick for almost no payoff (although to be fair a lot of that was the 80 item limit).

 

[Zeriel]

Ammo wasn't necessarily a fantastic part of X-COM, but it did occasionally lead to awesome situations. Like defending your base against an alien attack with rookies only equipped with starter weapons, because you have no ammo on hand for your death-rays. More importantly, the presence of an inventory system lead to cool things like picking up ammo/grenades off of dead team-mates, instead of (new XCOM) just throwing up your hands and saying, "Shucks! My grenade-carrying soldier died. Guess I get to suck balls, now."

 

[Gozma]

I am not against an inventory system; that is not the same as ammo quartermastering. I particularly like JA2 1.13 rigs and pouches style vs tetris, although I would like a faster and less annoying abstract inventory out-of-combat (which they kinda already do with sector inventory).

As for X-Com I maintain that if you keep a "how many fucking times am I clicking shit Jesus Christ" diary you will see that the ratio of busywork to interesting shit happening because of ammo quartermastering is extraordinarily large

 

[Roguey]

İ will be very mad if there are going to be checkpoints before each door/major battle...

I'll be very happy because fuck having to play 10-20+ minutes worth of content over again.

 

[tuluse]

Just don't die

 

[GarfunkeL]

Only P&P where ammo tracking is both important and "fun", is Twilight 2000 because you will consume fairly large amounts of ammunition AND you have to scavenge for it. As others already stated, as a GM, I only tracked speciality ammunition. Though now with Chummer automating the process to a degree, the next SR campaign I run will probably track all ammo!

It's a shame but having limited ammo isn't that useful by itself. It must be accompanied by an inventory that is limited by size and carrying capacity. Obviously, JA2 1.13 is the clear winner here (beating popamole shit like ARMA2) and while I'd love to see that kind of detail in SR:R - as the P&P rules sort of make it possible - I can live without it. Especially as it seems that tinkering with the game and the editor will allow us to do a lot of stuff.

 

[Roguey]

Just don't die

A game where I don't die is too easy.

 

[Dickie]

Just don't die

A game where I don't die is too easy.

A game that saves before every door is too easy.

 

[Roguey]

A game that saves before every door is too easy.

Nonsense. One could still die a dozen times or more against any given fight or accumulate extreme losses during any given run.

 

[Roguey]

And well well look what we have here

Your PC has a "stash" where you keep all your gear - think "bag of holding". At certain times designated by the GM, you get access to an equip screen where you can add or remove items from your stash.

Very Josh.

 

[Jaesun]

Like Johs's infinite inventory system?

 

[winterraptor]

A game that saves before every door is too easy.

Certain games that have included this are, anyway. 'Final Fantasy' the first fucking thing I think of when I hear 'save points'.

 

[Galdred]

Ammo cost was negligible in the PnP game if I recall, except for special ammos (assault cannon rounds, APDS, explosive and flechette rounds...), especially compared to the cost of the things you were saving for (Doc Wagon contract, cyberware, magic stuff and vehicles). What made you save ammo was the drastic recoil penalty, which could only be partially offset by carrying heavy and unwieldly gyro stabilizers. Even if any SR GM were counting ammo, it would not have changed anything in the game. That said, I wish the special ammunitions were there.

 

[tuluse]

And well well look what we have here

Your PC has a "stash" where you keep all your gear - think "bag of holding". At certain times designated by the GM, you get access to an equip screen where you can add or remove items from your stash.

Very Josh.

You can only add items at certain locations. Which is what most reasonable people asked for with PE.

 

[Roguey]

And well well look what we have here

Your PC has a "stash" where you keep all your gear - think "bag of holding". At certain times designated by the GM, you get access to an equip screen where you can add or remove items from your stash.

Very Josh.

You can only add items are certain locations. Which is what most reasonable people asked for with PE.

I don't understand what you mean. From the beginning Josh said his inventory would have things you can use in combat, a limited number of things you can access outside of combat, and an unlimited stash you can only access at rest areas. If this is a "you can't add to the stash except when the DM says so" thing keep in mind that Shadowrun is barely going to have anything to loot and PE is going to be full of a ton of it.

 

[Jaesun]

More info on the checkpoint Save System:

Will we be able to place checkpoints where we want with the Editor? For example I want to make a module where the only checkpoint is at the players Apartment.​

Are the default Checkpoint Saves for the game before and after a run in the default game?​

Basically. The default is before and after a "scene" which might be a run or might be a chunk of roleplaying/legwork in a location.​

We'd like to give player-GMs the ability to place checkpoints where they want but it's complicated and will likely not make it into the final release.​

The plan is to have your checkpoints listed on the main menu by character so you can go back to previous checkpoints and reload or play multiple characters without messing with each others' save games.​

 

[hoverdog]

Basically. The default is before and after a "scene" which might be a run or might be a chunk of roleplaying/legwork in a location.

 

[Jaesun]

No degenerate save scumming for you!

 

[Kem0sabe]

More info on the checkpoint Save System:

Will we be able to place checkpoints where we want with the Editor? For example I want to make a module where the only checkpoint is at the players Apartment.​

Are the default Checkpoint Saves for the game before and after a run in the default game?​

Basically. The default is before and after a "scene" which might be a run or might be a chunk of roleplaying/legwork in a location.​

We'd like to give player-GMs the ability to place checkpoints where they want but it's complicated and will likely not make it into the final release.​

The plan is to have your checkpoints listed on the main menu by character so you can go back to previous checkpoints and reload or play multiple characters without messing with each others' save games.​

Hmm, so the editor at release won't be capable of placing checkpoints? how will that work for player modules?

 

[Wulfstand]

I don't know if anyone else has posted this, but this guy seems to be one of the main investors in the SR kickstarter, which gladdens me, to be frank; I quite enjoy watching his videos.

 

[Jaesun]

Deadline For Upgrading Your Backer Level
Update #47 · Mar. 22, 2013


As we mentioned on March 8th, even though our Backer website isn't online yet, the volume of email requests asking to upgrade people’s Backer levels convinced Producer Brian to volunteer to process each request by hand. Since then, Brian has received well over 250 upgrade requests and has been busily working to fulfill them.

Because we need to finalize our physical rewards process and get items like t-shirts and USB Dog Tags manufactured and shipped, we need to lock down a deadline for upgrades. Once everything is locked down, we'll let you know when you can expect your physical stuff!

The deadline to upgrade your Backer Level is March 31st, 2013.

If you haven’t upgraded yet but would like to, please send Brian your current Backer status and the level you would like to be upgraded to. He'll coordinate with you about making the appropriate PayPal payment. Also, if you’re an International Backer, this is a great time to check your Kickstarter account to make sure you paid your overseas shipping fee and contact Brian if you haven't. Brian's email address is brian@hbs-studios.com.

* * *

While we’re talking about backers and rewards - one of our backers, Erik Dahlman, is running a Kickstarter for Synthesis, a cyberpunk-themed deck of playing cards. Normally, we don’t promote other Kickstarters (spam is not cool) but Erik is donating 10% of Synthesis’ total funds raised to Shadowrun Returns! So, if you like cyberpunk and you play cards, check it out.

Oh, and one more thing - we’ll be posting Mike McCain’s Dev Diary later this afternoon. Mike’s in charge of art around here and will go into detail on how we created the visuals you saw in our Alpha Gameplay Video.

Talk to you later!

HBS