Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns Pre-Release Thread

[Clockwork Knight]

See? The arrows might as well be unlimited.

They couldn't. I ran out of ammo several times and had to scavenge from fallen enemies. Not to mention that I ended up having several special fire arrows for special use.

I just find it odd that you'd rage over the news of unlimited ammo, but you're okay with ammo that is supposedly limited but you find enough to fire 200 arrows in an early game area.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

JA 2, Silent storm are not true cRPG but tactical game.
It's not comparable...dialog tree for example ?

Red Hammer has dialog trees. As for JA2, even when it's not dialogue trees, it's still character interaction that has consequences. Not to mention a huge amount of detailed NPCs.
That's besides the point. The thing is that putting a vaguely realistic system together will almost always give good results, while unrealistic systems will be hit or miss, with miss being most common.

I just find it odd that you'd rage over the news of unlimited ammo, but you're okay with ammo that is supposedly limited but you find enough to fire 200 arrows in an early game area.

What the fuck are you talking about? You sound alien, you know? Unlimited ammo is unlimited ammo and 200 ammo being available is 200 ammo being available. It's more real. But I know, you guys don't like real. You want more of WoW-like decline.

 

[Dickie]

To me, limited ammo is only fun if it's really limited. If I can just buy however much I want, it just means I have to remember to stop by the shop and buy 99 magazines every once in a while.

 

[Excidium]

All the pnp mechanics are p. simple to implement with coding, it's all about adding modifiers and rolling dice.

Metaplanes?

How is that of any relevance to what I'm talking about? The difficulty of implementation in that case are the limited assets.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

What the fuck are you talking about? You sound alien, you know? Unlimited ammo is unlimited ammo and 200 ammo being available is 200 ammo being available. It's more real. But I know, you guys don't like real. You want more of WoW-like decline.

That's what annoys you?

Wow's brand of decline has nothing to do with its lack of realism, by the way

 

[Wizfall]

OK JA 2 is comparable to fallout 1/2.
You see Excidium what i talked about JA 2 ? Some people are unable to make the difference between a story driven cRPG and tactical game with cRPG element
Are you talking about Red hammer the FPS ? Don't know it if not
And he loves BG arrows management, it was so deep and interesting :D

 

[Excidium]

I love how when somebody that is defending the same position as you are makes a retarded argument it invalidates yours too by association.

 

[Jaesun]

All the pnp mechanics are p. simple to implement with coding, it's all about adding modifiers and rolling dice.

Metaplanes?

How is that of any relevance to what I'm talking about? The difficulty of implementation in that case are the limited assets.

To be honest, them doing a toolset probably was the one thing eating a LOT into their budget for implementing stuff.

I would be willing to bet if they could travel back in time, they would probably say we will wok on a single player game, but a tool set will come from a future DLC (something like that).

 

[winterraptor]

OK JA 2 is comparable to fallout 1/2.

 

[evdk]

To be honest, them doing a toolset probably was the one thing eating a LOT into their budget for implementing stuff.

I would be willing to bet if they could travel back in time, they would probably say we will wok on a single player game, but a tool set will come from a future DLC (something like that).

I don't know, the toolset seems to be generating A LOT of goodwill. People are willing to tolerate various shortcomings just because of the possibility of modding in their own solutions.

 

[Jaesun]

I don't know, the toolset seems to be generating A LOT of goodwill. People are willing to tolerate various shortcomings just because of the possibility of modding in their own solutions.

I'm kind of basing this off of Feargus NOT doing a tool set for PE (of which they HAVE done a game with a tool set and know the costs, time as well as what it effects in designing a game). I though it was very telling they said they would not do one, even with 3 Million+ dollars as a budget. There could of course be some other reasons for this that I don't know of too.

However yes, the tool set IS one of the very good selling points for this game.

EDIT: And it is also very telling Fargo has not said anything about a tool set either (yet).

 

[Wizfall]

I love how when somebody that is defending the same position as you are makes a retarded argument it invalidates yours too by association.

You still don't have told me about a cRPG with better combat mechanic that in SR except maybe ToEE.
That why i think it's a quite hard to complain about it, especially for the budget and the price of the game.
And the implementation of the true PnP seems to me more complicated.
Lot more of coding (not all magic spells are resisted the same way, you have to decide the amount of dice to share between the power/drain resistance test, a stun bar would be necessary and lot of other thing to implement for the UI). And i don't remember very well all the rules.
The mana PnP regeneration system too, how to translate it in the cRPG. Plenty of small things like that which looks simple.
Sure it would be possible but more complicated IMO.
And i know Shadowrun is one of the very few PnP where i needed to have the rulebook always on my side, checking it much more than most other PnP games.
Quite harsh to expect someone to take the time understand such a complicated system. DnD is way easier.

About the editor, i can't wait for a limited ammo mod if it's possible to implement, would be fantastic stocking a shitload of it, so deep
Different kind of ammo would be the only thing interesting.Low priority still IMO.

 

[Excidium]

You still don't have told me about a cRPG with better combat mechanic that in SR except maybe ToEE.

That's because most CRPGs have p. mediocre mechanics. I don't see how it excuses this being streamlined.

And i know Shadowrun is one of the very few PnP where i needed to have the rulebook always on my side, checking it much more than most other PnP games.

That's because you're not a computer that has every rules and interactions memorized and can calculate the outcome of any action in a fraction of a second.

And seriously, any game mechanic that doesn't involve roleplaying is based on simple logic. It's likely not more complicated to code than the systems they implemented.

The difficulty lies in the player learning and that is probably why they went with something people can understand better like cooldowns, the actual mechanics would need some reading to understand and it would be bad when MCA is the average CRPG player.

 

[FeelTheRads]

About the editor, i can't wait for a limited ammo mod if it's possible to implement, would be fantastic stocking a shitload of it, so deep

This is the kind of reasoning that got us health regeneration, cover mechanics, Obsidian and all the popamole "hey, it's kinda broken, so let's remove it instead of fixing it" shit. Nice to see the Codex is not only accepting but fapping to decline when it comes from an indie game, though. Good for what it is, indeed.

P.S. How about if the game equips the best equipment for you too? Yeah, SO DEEP deciding on what to equip, the game should do it for you instead.

 

[Wizfall]

About the editor, i can't wait for a limited ammo mod if it's possible to implement, would be fantastic stocking a shitload of it, so deep

This is the kind of reasoning that got us health regeneration, cover mechanics, Obsidian and all the popamole "hey, it's kinda broken, so let's remove it instead of fixing it" shit. Nice to see the Codex is not only accepting but fapping to decline when it comes from an indie game, though. Good for what it is, indeed.

P.S. How about if the game equips the best equipment for you too? Yeah, SO DEEP deciding on what to equip, the game should do it for you instead.

You simply don't get the setting.
Ammo is cheap, ammo is common. So unless implementing a weight system or inventory system (JA 2 113 LBE style) it would be interesting in the shadowrun setting only for :
- managing different kind of ammo
- creating a special scenario where it's a problem
That why i consider it low priority. And something not to bother to implement if you have hard choice to make.
Ammo management makes sense and is important in the fallout/Wasteland setting, where ammo is not common good but something quite precious.

 

[tuluse]

Roguey

Do you even know what that word means? Not every nonsensical design is "gamist". It's just plain streamlining for no reason.

Yes, I choose to use it colloquially in its "rules that attempt to make the best game possible in spite of arbitrary attempts at simulating reality" sense. Since there's no looting in the base campaign, what does limited ammo add to this game? Nothing but busy- and guesswork. Oh sure, there's special ammo types in the P&P game, but it appears those don't exist in this adaptation.

Ammo conservation could be just as gamist as anything. For example you could do armor with pockets like Alpha Protocol, and the more pockets you have the harder it will be to sneak by people.

 

[tuluse]

I'm kind of basing this off of Feargus NOT doing a tool set for PE (of which they HAVE done a game with a tool set and know the costs, time as well as what it effects in designing a game). I though it was very telling they said they would not do one, even with 3 Million+ dollars as a budget. There could of course be some other reasons for this that I don't know of too.

However yes, the tool set IS one of the very good selling points for this game.

EDIT: And it is also very telling Fargo has not said anything about a tool set either (yet).

It's telling about what? Both those games wanted to focus on a deep meaningful campaign. Shadowrun doesn't.

Also, P:E is using unique backgrounds which would make it really hard to make a level building tool. NWN2 used tiles.

 

[Jaesun]

It's telling about what? Both those games wanted to focus on a deep meaningful campaign. Shadowrun doesn't.

Wasteland 2 does not want to focus on a deep meaningful campaign?

 

[tuluse]

Perhaps poorly worded by me. The goal of W2 and PE was a deep meaningful single player campaign. The Shadowrun pitch was different.

InXile probably could have done a tool set, but they didn't want to, and wanted to focus on the campaign instead.

 

[Jaesun]

Agreed. That is one possibility.

 

[FeelTheRads]

You simply don't get the setting.

Absolutely nothing to do with the setting. Your reasoning for not "needing" it can be applied to any game as seen by some other people even in this thread. "Hey, you can stockpile ammo anyway, why not make it infinite then." And in that same line of reasoning: "You stockpile on health packs and/or reload anyway, why not have health regeneration?".

 

[Jaesun]

Have you ever done a PnP session before FeelTheRads?

 

[Gozma]

I put forward the idea that decisions that cut out stuff that requires multiple thousands of clicks per interesting thought or scenario generated (in this case, clip quartermastering) is not gamist or mass market LCD, but merely human-friendly design. If you would ever logically prefer to offload some busywork to a macro or triggered script, that tedious shit shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. This is not precious shotguns shells in a Mad Max game, this is bullets in Shadowrun. How many interesting things did ammo do in the Genesis version of Shadowrun?

 

[Excidium]

Have you ever done a PnP session before FeelTheRads?

PnP is another story. You don't track normal ammo mainly because tracking this sort of minutia is a pain in the ass and the odds are that everyone will forget to edit their sheets after reloading and regular rounds being cheap and widely available justifies you not bothering to register them since your characters are all armed to the teeth anyway. But common sense still applies and ammo is only as infinite as the GM wants, if you are doing full auto fires all the time like you're rambo he might rule that after this reload you notice you only have 4 clips left.

It's the kind of sacrifice you make for the sake of playability, not really necessary in a computer game. I'm getting tired of repeating this.

 

[Jaesun]

Just like torches, flasks, ropes , spikes and various other item you need to purchase in D&D when doing a module?