RPGs that are unanimously praised by people of refined taste that you never could finish.

[sser]

The problem is that the locations were at times so defined by their themes that it broken verisimilitude of the world. Las Vegas for instance is a town entirely built around mobsters and drug addicts... how the hell does it continue to survive? What does it produce? Why does anyone go there? What role does it have in the world's economy? There's nothing wrong with having a theme for a location, but when it's all there is to that location, and it actively flies in the face of establishing a believable world, that's an issue.

 

[Infinitron]

Look at its location: New Reno has easy access with the mine of Reddings, and straddle the trade route of North South and East West. From the agriculture villages and trapper towns of Modoc and Klamath, you must go through it to get to Broken Hills. From the agriculture towns of NCR, your annual cattle herds must go through it to travel northward to Vault City. New Reno Vice City make it an attractive stopping point for all those trade caravans full of horny drivers and guards.

Its resource is chemical and drugs. The Enclave buy chemicals from one of NR Family. Vault City compete with New Reno in selling chems and drugs to Reddings. New Reno is nearer to broken Hills than VC, so it's easier to get electricity there than to VC, though VC got its own source in Gekko plant. With electricity it's pretty easy to produce some drugs. New Reno is exporting the strongest known drug in Wasteland: Jet.

It's also a good place to trade for weapons and upgrades. VC? No. Gekko? No. Broken HIlls? No, Redding? No. If you are feeling very adventurous you can buy weapons in NCR, pass through a wasteland filled with mutated creatures.

Top place to export entertainment in form of holo porn vids. SF is too far to affect much.

All in all, New Reno is a classic service port/town.

I knew from the very start the tits and asses of New Reno's prostitutes will blind ya. I am still proved right.

Good post, but still, these things aren't just not shown, they're barely even implied. New Reno feels like what sea described, even if there's more to it in the background.

 

[laclongquan]

That's what it's good about Fallout 2. Dont forget that the implied background make up the ambience. Every and I mean EVERY towns has such thing: location, economic factors, memorable characters. Modoc? Farming town, combined of raising cattle and raising crops, with the shotgun-marriage family, chicken Bed and Breakfast. etc and etc.... You cant even complain that there's a forgettable town.

 

[Infinitron]

That's what it's good about Fallout 2. Dont forget that the implied background make up the ambience. Every and I mean EVERY towns has such thing: location, economic factors, memorable characters. Modoc? Farming town, combined of raising cattle and raising crops, with the shotgun-marriage family, chicken Bed and Breakfast. etc and etc.... You cant even complain that there's a forgettable town.

But as I said, it's barely even implied. I feel they could have done more to make New Reno feel like an organic part of the wasteland.

 

[laclongquan]

You want to be forcefed location and story lore? You want Morrowind's level of writing and ambience level?

Get the fuck out!

Try as they might, no location in Morrowind is memorable despite all their lores, books, dialogs, in-your-face-biatches writings. Oh wait, there's one, you know, that city with several big block of residential livings and stuffs? What is that called again?

 

[sea]

I knew from the very start the tits and asses of New Reno's prostitutes will blind ya. I am still proved right.

Some of those are decent points. However, a few of them sound a bit too closer to fan fiction and, in my opinion, give the game a bit too much credit.

That said, how do you explain the ridiculous 1930s-era Italian mob families running New Reno? And I have a lot of trouble reconciling things like the porn studio and the boxing arena (complete with stupid Mike Tyson cameo). Come to think of it, who is buying porn anyway? Who was the money? How do they reproduce it - nobody makes paper or film, nobody has a TV to watch it on...

I'd also like to see you explain stuff like San Francisco, a town with the best equipment in the game and yet is almost completely isolated from the entire world behind frequent Enclave patrols and other dangerous random encounters, not to mention completely full of ludicrous ninja clans and samurai. Did I mention it also has an insane cult located there for no other conceivable reason other than it's the endgame town?

Also, why do you mention Morrowind? Nobody else brought it up.

 

[Infinitron]

I'd also like to see you explain stuff like San Francisco, a town with the best equipment in the game and yet is almost completely isolated from the entire world behind frequent Enclave patrols and other dangerous random encounters, not to mention completely full of ludicrous ninja clans and samurai. Did I mention it also has an insane cult located there for no other conceivable reason other than it's the endgame town?

You're probably right, although I sometimes think that the game sort of implied that the non-Asian population of San Francisco had banded together as Hubologists, as a twisted way of preserving their identity in the face of Shi dominance.

Where do I get this racial idea? When you enter San Fran, there are NPCs who tell you that "You look like a Hubologist" - because you're white.

 

[Mangoose]

Try as they might, no location in Morrowind is memorable despite all their lores, books, dialogs, in-your-face-biatches writings.

Completely disagree, and this is coming from someone who gets really bored of Morrowind for other reasons.

 

[sea]

You're probably right, although I sometimes think that the game sort of implied that the non-Asian population of San Francisco had banded together as Hubologists, as a twisted way of preserving their identity in the face of Shi dominance.

Where do I get this racial idea? When you enter San Fran, there are NPCs who tell you that "You look like a Hubologist" - because you're white.

Maybe. Doesn't change the fact that it's fucking stupid (herp derp it's Tom Cruise).

 

[Yoshiyyahu]

I knew from the very start the tits and asses of New Reno's prostitutes will blind ya. I am still proved right.

Some of those are decent points. However, a few of them sound a bit too closer to fan fiction and, in my opinion, give the game a bit too much credit.

That said, how do you explain the ridiculous 1930s-era Italian mob families running New Reno? And I have a lot of trouble reconciling things like the porn studio and the boxing arena (complete with stupid Mike Tyson cameo). Come to think of it, who is buying porn anyway? Who was the money? How do they reproduce it - nobody makes paper or film, nobody has a TV to watch it on...

I'd also like to see you explain stuff like San Francisco, a town with the best equipment in the game and yet is almost completely isolated from the entire world behind frequent Enclave patrols and other dangerous random encounters, not to mention completely full of ludicrous ninja clans and samurai. Did I mention it also has an insane cult located there for no other conceivable reason other than it's the endgame town?

Also, why do you mention Morrowind? Nobody else brought it up.

i wouldnt call it completely isolated. sure, you have the navarro patrols north, but to the east you have a big NCR settlement, as well as NR to the north east. both of those locations have a straight line path to san fran

alright, we get it, theres lots of implausible stuff in fallout 2, like the new reno gambling scene or the corsican porn house. sure, not very likely, but the same is true for gizmo's gambling hut where theres like 40 poker machines. who is buying porn, who is gambling for chips? it seems the same deal to me

 

[Infinitron]

It's true that Junktown seemed way too run down to support that big casino.

 

[laclongquan]

What physical goods that New Reno can export to other towns on those caravans? Drugs, chems, boozes, porn vids, possibly weapons. All those are questionable goods and historically, linked to underworld organizations. Humans are creatures of habits so if they organize themselves into Mafia Families it's not stranger than other historical facts (like Shaolin monks hold strong influence over the area around their mountain, acting as second government aside official government, or the Shinto temples in Japanese Sengoku period).

As for casino, dude! Gather a group of ten males in one group and a card game will break out the moment they are bored. Gather all those horny and bored drivers and guards of several caravans and you got a massive need for casino. Ditto with brothels. The strange thing is the low number of booze selling stands. But then the family in charge of that was suppressed to certain extent.

Boxing arena? Dude! Again, see the need for gambling. Plus all those bored males. It's a small step from fighting each other for fun to fighting each other for profits. You will see that any group of bored males stay at one place for long will break out fighting, and the bystanders will bet on outcome. It's a bloody usual scene in a rough place.

As for SF, I still think the devs dropped the ball on that. There should be a massive increase of encounter around the military base to act as a barrier to SF's entry. There's not enough.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I think Daggerfall might be joining this list for me I've played it before, years ago, but stopped after a few hours for some reason I can't remember. I've been playing it heavily over the last few days, doing well - possibly too well - and something about the game just leaves me really cold. I don't know why I'm not enjoying it much, as it has all the elements of a game I should be absolutely loving. Might just attempt the main quest.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The funny thing about the hubologists is that they're relatively unremarkable if you don't get the scientology parody. When I played it for the first time I had never heard about scientology so they just looked like a random cult rambling about space travel and mind powers (and an excellent source of plasma grenades, during the "Hubologists vs Press gang" random encounters). I think I noticed the Tom Cruise-like character because he's called Com Truise or something like that, but I'm not sure (he's the guy that convinces you to watch the motivational tape that can raise your Luck by 2 points, iirc). Speaking of that, the scientist at the back near the spaceship is a reference to Feargus Urquhart, but I also didn't notice that at the time.

I knew from the very start the tits and asses of New Reno's prostitutes will blind ya. I am still proved right.

Some of those are decent points. However, a few of them sound a bit too closer to fan fiction and, in my opinion, give the game a bit too much credit.

That's not really fair. You state that Reno doesn't look like it could realistically work, and when you're given an explanation, it's not silly enough for the game.

The mob families have the italian names, tommy guns and the enforcers wear fedora hats, but apart from that silliness they're just gangs. I can see how it would bother the more srsbiz players but I didn't have a problem with them. I don't get why the porn studio is a problem, though. It's porn, not action movies. As long as you have two people, a goofy script and a camera you're good to go, and it's not like being poor keeps people from being interested in porn (or gambling, or prostitution, or other cheap entertainment that thrives in poor regions)

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

So "Fallout 2 cannot into my precious immersion" crowd is now wondering what is the place of gambling, sex and biggest drug suppliers doing in a post-apocalyptic world. Uh... ok? Oh, yeah, there are tommy guns so it's stupid. Too bad that's still a significant improvement over Hub with a thief guild run by a Robin Hood character with a silly British accent


Anyway, claims that F1's world is much more realistic is usually the point where I stop reading/listening to setting- and storyfags. Fallout 2 world despite occurrences of derp is much better thought out. F1 is basically "here's a farming town to give you some local quests", "here's a trading town to give you some local quests" which is just a run of the mill crpg thing. F2 has locations that have their purpose, but they are also connected and have their own, often conflicting, agendas. They try to influence each other and it's reflected not only in ingame dialogue and lore but, most importantly, many quests. This is very glaring when you return to F1 after F2. But of course, Pinky and the Brain, omg, whatever will the girls at school say when they find out I like a game with Pinky and the Brain in it? Doctor Who and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy are obviously much more and in tune with my realistic post apocalypse.

Oh, and SF is shit, no excuses there. Typical rushed end game location.

 

[Jasede]

Bloodlines:
This game is definitely good to me in parts but the endgame made it impossible to finish. Was just bleh.

Most Looking Glass-ish games:
Start out fantastic and are wonderful to finish once, but when replaying it's somewhat hard to get past the middle before quitting. Thief 2, System Shock 2, Deus Ex- as much as I love them, I don't usually replay them fully because of that.

Risen:
Got bored very early on. Just more of the same of Gothic but without the things that make Gothic neat.

Dragon Knight Saga:
Drags on way too long at the end; the part with the flying fortresses burnt me out so much I didn't even touch the Xpac.

Skyrim:
Was a great hiking simulator but eventually the dungeons and environments were too same-y for my taste, so Morrowind still has it beat in this regard. Couldn't finish it.

Diablo 3:
The item system takes the entire fun out of what made Diablo 1&2 entertaining: gathering cool loot.

Might & Magic 5/6/7/8/9:
Too much hack & slash and the real-time didn't sit well with me. And the TB mode wasn't fun either. But- I loved Wizards & Warriors. Yes, the game everyone hates by D.W. Bradley.

Well, I guess most of these aren't actually praised here, but hey, I am bored.



And Matt, Ultima 7-2 has fantastic writing as far as I'm concerned; but we can't all have good taste. (This can be interpreted as a jab at you or as a jab at myself.)

And Wizardry 8 kicks ASS, peasants. T_T

Oh and I think Kotor 2 and MotB are best enjoyed as Let's Plays, not as games. That way you can have all the cut content integrated and don't have to bother with the combat/bugs/engine.

 

[sser]

I'm baffled that people don't believe entertainment would survive in Fallout's world. Gambling and prostitution would probably be the primary "economic" asset in a nuked-out wasteland. And you think 1930s-mock gangsters are weird, too? Man, look around America. There are plenty of pimps in tophats with canes and long coats, not to mention the general sub-culture of people who just dress that way. People do things that make them feel important, or that gives them some status that separates them from others. I can totally see people in power dressing up in tuxes and what nice things they can find to separate themselves form the measly, dying masses. I really don't get the shock at New Reno when it is a spin on Las Vegas, a town literally in the middle of a desert that boomed on its foundations of... sex and gambling.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Fallout 2's themepark atmosphere and excessive references to nerd humor were pretty annoying.

But how many memorable locations and characters can you come up with if you stick to a 100% serious post apocalyptic setting? Keep in mind that many of the more interesting groups that might show up in a realistic post apocalyptic setting cannot be included due to today's norms of political correctness.

You'd end up with stuff like "dirty grey and brown town of dirty scavengers", "dirty grey and brown town of dirty dirt farmers" and "dirty grey and brown camp of dirty slaver filth".

So I guess it makes sense that instead of having New Reno be a boring "dirty grey and brown town of dirty degenerate gamblers", they added some non serious stuff to give it a 1930s Chicago feel. And instead of having San Francisco be a "dirty grey and brown town of dirty Asians (who act like everybody else)" they introduced a bunch of corny ancient Asian historical stuff.

It still annoyed me, but I think that if they took out all the non serious / corny elements (including those ridiculous super mutants) there wouldn't be that much to do in post apocalyptic storyfag RPG, keeping in mind the rules of political correctness they had to work under.

 

[almondblight]

So I guess it makes sense that instead of having New Reno be a boring "dirty grey and brown town of dirty degenerate gamblers", they added some non serious stuff to give it a 1930s Chicago feel. And instead of having San Francisco be a "dirty grey and brown town of dirty Asians (who act like everybody else)" they introduced a bunch of corny ancient Asian historical stuff.

It depends on your tolerance. Some people will laugh at Pinky and the Brain references, Monty Python references, shit bombs, shotgun weddings, getting a sex perk to screw the bosses wife, talking plants that play chess, kungfu gangs, scientology and Tom Cruise, porn studios, porn collecting games, etc. Just like some people might like an anime or JRPG Fallout, or some people might think of Fallout 3 being superior to Fallout 1. Tastes vary. But Fallout 1 wasn't a gimmicky lulz fest, and for those of us that didn't want the game to be turned into a stupid joke, Fallout 2 was a mess.

It still annoyed me, but I think that if they took out all the non serious / corny elements (including those ridiculous super mutants) there wouldn't be that much to do in post apocalyptic storyfag RPG, keeping in mind the rules of political correctness they had to work under.

And as for why porn studios are stupid...do you guys really need it spelled out to you? It's supposed to be post-apocalyptic but people are buying DVD's to watch in their home theater or going to XXX movie theaters? Why not include TV shows while you're at it, or famous actors (oh, they already did).

New Reno is stupid because it's both the largest city and it's a port town without a government. If it was an out of the way place like the Den it'd make sense, but it's like having a country that consists of farms and Las Vegas. The other stupid thing is that the gangs that run the place aren't wasteland gangs, they're Scorsese rejects.

As for the other locations:

The first town (Klamath?) is pretty much nothing. I was confused when I first got there because there's nothing there. Oh, and I think there's some dungeon with trash mobs.

The Den is supposed to be a government-less town, but it's hard to tell because the only other town you've been to so far didn't have a government either. Nothing memorable. Well, it has a ghost.

That lulz fest farm place. Shit bombs. Shotgun marriages. Pink and the brain references. Not much else.

Vault City. Actually a decent location, though it's a bit stupid you can help the NCR spy on them and help them catch the NCR spy at the same time.

Ghoul town. Harold was annoying. Really didn't need to see him again.

New Reno. See above. Plus, you can work for all four gangs at the same time and they don't care.

Redding. It has a dungeon where you kill trash mobs. Don't remember much else.

That human/mutant place. Liked the idea of human terrorists trying to kill mutants, and it actually let's you pick sides. The chess playing plant was more looney toons stupidity, and it was kind of stupid that the sheriff drops what he's doing to join you, but it's a decent location.

NCR. Supposed to be the capital of a great nation and it's a city sitting in the middle of nowhere (I know it's supposed to be the northern edge). Oh, and that girl from the first game is running things.

Vault 13. Friendly talking Deathclaws.

San Francisco. Kung Fu games and Tom Cruise jokes.

Didn't get to the Oil Rig (didn't feel like fighting through the tanker).

For me at least, only Vault City and that human/mutant place were the only interesting locations in the game. The rest felt either bland (Redding, the Den) or were just annoying and stupid (SanFran, New Reno). Even the better locations had some stupidity though (like the plant/scorpion chess game).

 

[sea]

I'm baffled that people don't believe entertainment would survive in Fallout's world. Gambling and prostitution would probably be the primary "economic" asset in a nuked-out wasteland. And you think 1930s-mock gangsters are weird, too? Man, look around America. There are plenty of pimps in tophats with canes and long coats, not to mention the general sub-culture of people who just dress that way. People do things that make them feel important, or that gives them some status that separates them from others. I can totally see people in power dressing up in tuxes and what nice things they can find to separate themselves form the measly, dying masses. I really don't get the shock at New Reno when it is a spin on Las Vegas, a town literally in the middle of a desert that boomed on its foundations of... sex and gambling.

Las Vegas became an economic powerhouse due to the rise of affordable mass transportation technologies, i.e. cars to drive there and planes to fly there, which all took place during the 1930s-1940s. This was also roughly when the idea of tourism (for the emerging middle class) began to appear.

Fallout's world has neither accessible transportation nor tourism (because people have no money and life is a struggle). Entertainment, yes (cards, board games, etc.). But the world of Fallout is roughly equivalent to something like the Dark Ages - people aren't educated, quality of life is poor, life is brutish and short, etc., and people in such situations don't have time or energy to take the family out for a week of hedonistic fun.

In this respect the original Fallout was much better at portraying a realistic post-nuclear culture - small, isolated communities that are self-sufficient, old world tech is valuable because it's integral to survival, and everyone is fearful of what lies out in the wastes. With very, very few cars, a dangerous wasteland, little to no real manufacturing of industrial goods, etc. Fallout 2's world falls apart much more quickly - it's still the same Dark Ages as Fallout, except now everything is bigger, dumber and lulzier.

I could have bought it if it had been clear that technology, economic infrastructure and living standards had improved significantly since the first game. They have a bit, granted, just not enough in my opinion to explain the availability of mass entertainment, tourist traps, and so on - I mean, at best Fallout 2 is the Middle Ages, hardly a time period I'd equate with prosperity and quality of life for the working man. I actually would have liked to see more feudal-style locations, as that would make sense - powerful and rich adventurers from the Fallout 1 days setting up their own communities with their own rules, making serfs work under them in exchange for safety.

A bigger and more complex world demands bigger and more complex answers to more and more questions, so while the original Fallout might have some holes here and there, they're things you can handwave much more easily as limitations of the videogame medium or the occasional strange design choice. There's a difference between the occasional inconsistency and "this shit makes no sense/everything is stupid."

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Might & Magic 5/6/7/8/9:
Too much hack & slash and the real-time didn't sit well with me. And the TB mode wasn't fun either.

Including MM5 was probably a mistake, right ?

 

[laclongquan]

You are mad because porn vids being treated as serious trade goods. It offends your Tender Puritan Sensibilities. I can see that.

But what else can they make?

News? You are joking. The damn vids travel by caravan speed, when they arrive at their destination the news is stinkier than last week's fishes. If they want news they can just gosship with the guards and drivers, getting it for free. Why would they want to buy it?

Educational contents? Also Ha. Ha. It's never a big moneymaker. It's just NOT.

Real movies? Who would buy enough vids to support a group of professional actresses and actors making movies all year? The market group is not that big: less than ten towns with working computer to read the vids.

What you are seeing is the production of low budget movies, using cheap and amateur actors/actress. And for that type of resource, porn make the most sense.

 

[sser]

I'm baffled that people don't believe entertainment would survive in Fallout's world. Gambling and prostitution would probably be the primary "economic" asset in a nuked-out wasteland. And you think 1930s-mock gangsters are weird, too? Man, look around America. There are plenty of pimps in tophats with canes and long coats, not to mention the general sub-culture of people who just dress that way. People do things that make them feel important, or that gives them some status that separates them from others. I can totally see people in power dressing up in tuxes and what nice things they can find to separate themselves form the measly, dying masses. I really don't get the shock at New Reno when it is a spin on Las Vegas, a town literally in the middle of a desert that boomed on its foundations of... sex and gambling.

Las Vegas became an economic powerhouse due to the rise of affordable mass transportation technologies, i.e. cars to drive there and planes to fly there, which all took place during the 1930s-1940s. This was also roughly when the idea of tourism (for the emerging middle class) began to appear.

Fallout's world has neither accessible transportation nor tourism (because people have no money and life is a struggle). Entertainment, yes (cards, board games, etc.). But the world of Fallout is roughly equivalent to something like the Dark Ages - people aren't educated, quality of life is poor, life is brutish and short, etc., and people in such situations don't have time or energy to take the family out for a week of hedonistic fun.

In this respect the original Fallout was much better at portraying a realistic post-nuclear culture - small, isolated communities that are self-sufficient, old world tech is valuable because it's integral to survival, and everyone is fearful of what lies out in the wastes. With very, very few cars, a dangerous wasteland, little to no real manufacturing of industrial goods, etc. Fallout 2's world falls apart much more quickly. A bigger and more complex world demands bigger and more complex answers to more and more questions, so while the original Fallout might have some holes here and there, they're things you can handwave much more easily as limitations of the videogame medium or the occasional strange design choice. There's a difference between the occasional inconsistency and "this shit makes no sense/everything is stupid."

What?

People go to Las Vegas to fuck whores and gamble their money away. How they get there is irrelevant and is certainly not why the town exists. The city was seen as a beacon of vice in the midst of a desert and that's what it still is. Means of travel is completely beside the point. There are smaller "Las Vegases" all around the world that are not in the middle of the desert. They exist because they offer a certain element of 'fun' you don't find in otherwise ordinary places. And the poor and downtrodden do turn to these forms of entertainment. Read the literature on the Great Depression in the United States. Nobody had any money for food, but they had the cash to go to speakeasies and whore houses. The sex industry thrives in poor regions. How many fat Americans travel to shitty neighborhoods in Bangkok to fuck poor, homeless prostitutes? How much of sex slavery comes from the U.S. or Western Europe? Not much. How much of it comes from the blown out towns of the Balkans, the rural countryside of South Asia, the ghettos of east Asia and Africa and the favelas of South America? Almost all of it.

Look, I get what you mean, but New Reno is not the part of the game that is "wacky and weird." In a post-apocalyptic world the first towns to be rebuilt would almost certainly exist on the foundations of cheap entertainment -- in this case, sex and gambling. Why? Because that shit is consistent with the human narrative. Even in prisons men can find ways to dress up other men as 'pretty girls' and fuck them. You seriously underestimate this aspect of humanity. It's just there, all throughout history. And if you blow the world up, all that liberal progress goes to hell and we return right back to those prior, ancient elements. Women become commodities, the powerful brood over everyone else with the threat of harsh violence, and cheap entertainment rules the masses.

If you want to talk about wacky aspects of the game then the San Fran-area makes sense. It is just quirky, sticks out like a sore thumb, and makes little sense in the context of the game. New Reno? Fuck no. New Reno is exactly the kind of town I'd expect to spring up in a recovering, post-apocalyptic world. Nobody is gonna be building empires off of iPads in a nuked-out wasteland. Gambling and women? Easy. Fucking easy. And you better believe the first guy to get his hands on some guns, and get a few bros together, is gonna do exactly that.

 

[PorkaMorka]

It depends on your tolerance. Some people will laugh at Pinky and the Brain references, Monty Python references, shit bombs, shotgun weddings, getting a sex perk to screw the bosses wife, talking plants that play chess, kungfu gangs, scientology and Tom Cruise, porn studios, porn collecting games, etc. Just like some people might like an anime or JRPG Fallout, or some people might think of Fallout 3 being superior to Fallout 1. Tastes vary. But Fallout 1 wasn't a gimmicky lulz fest, and for those of us that didn't want the game to be turned into a stupid joke, Fallout 2 was a mess.

It definitely annoyed me and they definitely went too far. I just don't think that they could realistically generate the content needed for a game the size of Fallout 2 without using some corny / out of place elements, due to the extreme limitations of the post apocalyptic setting.

If you think about the kinds of groups that might form after an apocalypse wiped out most of civilization, you'll quickly conclude that many of the most flavorful groups would need to be excluded from a video game intended for the mass market, due to today's norms of political correctness.

You can't include groups based on real life religions*. You can't include groups based on controversial real life political ideologies, like communism. You can't include racist groups. You can't include tasteful rape groups that treat women inappropriately.

But those would also be some of the most realistic ways to add flavor to a faction, without resorting to corny stuff like creating a faction of 1930s gangsters or ninjas(sic) from a crashed Chinese submarine or technology worshiping warrior monks.

* Parodying Scientology doesn't count.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

New Reno is exactly the kind of town I'd expect to spring up in a recovering, post-apocalyptic world.

I think Fallout 2 suffers by melding the progression of post apocalyptic society with pop culture references so detractors end up pointing to both as a combined design element that has nothing of the teetering recovering world vibe of the original, now you get the pulp science wild west frontier adventure with south park jokes