RPGs that are unanimously praised by people of refined taste that you never could finish.

[Infinitron]

And if you were in the wrong position to deal with them then you either had to move quickly or you died. Were you trying to make a point? If so then please define it rather than leave us to guess.

Move quickly to where? They instantly know where you are. At that point it becomes a regular shooting game. You can run like hell or fight it out popamole style with long waits between shots (assuming you haven't invested in combat skills since you're trying to play it like a stealth game).

 

[Average Manatee]

Again, you are leading the discussion astray for no discernible reason. So let me again ask:

Were you trying to make a point? If so then please define it rather than leave us to guess.

Move quickly to where? They instantly know where you are. At that point it becomes a regular shooting game. You can run like hell or fight it out popamole style with long waits between shots (assuming you haven't invested in combat skills since you're trying to play it like a stealth game).

A more secure location (one entrance, elevated, with cover, etc). Are you really so dumb that you think there is no environmental advantage to be gained in an FPS?

 

[Infinitron]

I feel kind of guilty for going so hard on a game which is truly great. Nevertheless, it can't be denied. There's a reason why people always dread playing through Liberty Island again. At the beginning of the game, your character is so unskilled and the game itself is so barebones that the weaknesses of the game's core mechanics really shine through.

A more secure location (one entrance, elevated, with cover, etc). Are you really so dumb that you think there is no environmental advantage to be gained in an FPS?

OK, that's what we call popamole. In modern popamole games, your ability to instantly kill the enemy is limited by the fact that they are also in cover, popping in and out when they shoot.
In Deus Ex's case, you're the mole that needs to pop in and out while his reticule shrinks.

 

[DraQ]

Again, do I need to underline the word "more" in "more of a luck game"? You do understand that there is more than just black and white, right?

I understand "luck game" as a game where winning or losing is dependent on luck. If the game gives you tools to compensate, then it is not a luck game regardless of whether it features more or less luck in its mechanics. DX1 wouldn't become more reliant on luck in the end even if you made shooting more luck based, so I wouldn't say it would become more of a luck game.

Define fun first. I find hiding in the shadows and springing the trap with a single well aimed shot to be more fun and appropriate in a spy-game than Doom-style run and gun everywhere.

(...)

DX is a stealth game if you play it as one. If you aren't, get the training and you have nothing to bitch about. You can start off with advanced and be halfway to master already.

This and this.

Gunplay is not a punishment for poor gameplay. Missing when firing your gun can be a punishment for poor gameplay. In Deus Ex's case, it's rewarding a type of gameplay which is not fun, which leads one to conclude that the game's gunplay is broken.

Not assigning points to weapon skills when you want to use them extensively is poor gameplay on player's part.

You can up a weapon skill of your choice to advanced right off the boat, which is only one level short of master. Then you normally fit your favourite boomstick with as many fancy mods as you can find, so you can become fast and accurate really fast with it.

Deus Ex is not a stealth game. It's a shooter. You cannot remove "the twitch factor" from a shooter.

It is both and neither depending on how you play it. If you want to play it as a shooter, don't pump your primary weapon skill to advanced off the boat, and then *complain* about it, then you're a 'tard, plain and simple.

Additionally, a game where enemy could pop you off with one headshot from a pistol and where running and gunning messed your accuracy was pretty nifty and felt quite real in 2000.

Deus Ex was an immersive game rather than power fantasy right from the start and its mechanics facilitated it.

 

[Average Manatee]

I feel kind of guilty for going so hard on a game which is truly great. Nevertheless, it can't be denied. There's a reason why people always dread playing through Liberty Island again. At the beginning of the game, your character is so unskilled and the game itself is so barebones that the weaknesses of the game's core mechanics really shine through.

OK, that's what we call popamole. In modern popamole games, your ability to instantly kill the enemy is limited by the fact that they are also in cover, popping in and out when they shoot.
In Deus Ex's case, you're the mole that needs to pop in and out while his reticule shrinks.

Were you trying to make a point? If so then please define it rather than leave us to guess.

Again, do I need to underline the word "more" in "more of a luck game"? You do understand that there is more than just black and white, right?

I understand "luck game" as a game where winning or losing is dependent on luck. If the game gives you tools to compensate, then it is not a luck game regardless of whether it features more or less luck in its mechanics. DX1 wouldn't become more reliant on luck in the end even if you made shooting more luck based, so I wouldn't say it would become more of a luck game.

Right now, I would rate the outcome of a given fair firefight as being 5% luck (even with the highest level of aiming you have some amount of inaccuracy), 40% character skill (items, mods, augs, skills), and 55% player skill (knowing how to use what you have). This means that you can rely heavily on character skill (strong gun and armor lets you run straight in and win), or rely on player skill (very good stealth, taking out lone characters that patrol away from the group, etc). What you can never do is have neither player skill or character skill and win by dumb luck.

With accuracy always being a flat value, that would shift more to 25% luck, 30% character skill, 40% player skill. You could still win all fights by having an even stronger character or playing even better, but it's also possible to win or lose due to a significant luck factor. It is entirely possible to do everything wrong with the wrong character and win by a fluke, or to be playing the game well and lose by a fluke. This is what I mean by "more of a luck game". There are very few games that are entirely luck-based or entirely deterministic, but there is a significant range of different amounts of luck input. This is recognizable and quantifiable.

 

[Infinitron]

Additionally, a game where enemy could pop you off with one headshot from a pistol and where running and gunning messed your accuracy was pretty nifty and felt quite real in 2000.

Deus Ex was an immersive game rather than power fantasy right from the start and its mechanics facilitated it.

Sure, but this could have been implemented in a more enjoyable way. Also it was an "immersive game" with shitty enemy AI (with better AI, they would presumably have improved the player's gun skills to compensate, improving the game to a great degree overall)

 

[DraQ]

A more secure location (one entrance, elevated, with cover, etc). Are you really so dumb that you think there is no environmental advantage to be gained in an FPS?

OK, that's what we call popamole. In modern popamole games, your ability to instantly kill the enemy is limited by the fact that they are also in cover, popping in and out when they shoot.
In Deus Ex's case, you're the mole that needs to pop in and out while his reticule shrinks.

Are you fucking dumb?

The problem with popamoles isn't cover - how can you expect to make a decent shooter in fairly realistic setting *without* basing gameplay on use of cover?

The problem with popamoles is that you can maintain clear overview of the environment and pre-aim your weapon despite being completely concealed which reduces them, to, well, popamole.

Deus Ex has none of this shit.

 

[Infinitron]

The problem with popamoles isn't cover - how can you expect to make a decent shooter in fairly realistic setting *without* basing gameplay on use of cover?

The problem with popamoles is that you can maintain clear overview of the environment and pre-aim your weapon despite being completely concealed which reduces them, to, well, popamole.

Deus Ex has none of this shit.

It's not just cover. It's having to wait while ducking in cover.

Overall though, with Deus Ex it's probably more common to just run far enough that the enemy fails to hit you than it is to duck behind cover. Then aim at them and wait for the reticule to shrink, while they run at you firing and missing.

Again, this is kind of derpy gameplay.

 

[Average Manatee]

A more secure location (one entrance, elevated, with cover, etc). Are you really so dumb that you think there is no environmental advantage to be gained in an FPS?

OK, that's what we call popamole. In modern popamole games, your ability to instantly kill the enemy is limited by the fact that they are also in cover, popping in and out when they shoot.
In Deus Ex's case, you're the mole that needs to pop in and out while his reticule shrinks.

Are you fucking dumb?

The problem with popamoles isn't cover - how can you expect to make a decent shooter in fairly realistic setting *without* basing gameplay on use of cover?

The problem with popamoles is that you can maintain clear overview of the environment and pre-aim your weapon despite being completely concealed which reduces them, to, well, popamole.

Deus Ex has none of this shit.

Apparently DOOM is now popamole because you can hide behind cover and wait for bullets to go by. You can even change weapons while in cover, meaning you don't spend time standing around like an idiot while getting shot at.

 

[Infinitron]

DOOM doesn't force you to cower helplessly while your reticule shrinks. In Deus Ex, mole pops you!

 

[Average Manatee]

I'm sorry but I really can't deal with this level of idiocy in text.

You could seriously make a decent case for DX being popamole-ish, but only with an entirely different set of arguments that you aren't making.

 

[Infinitron]

ITT, a guy thinks he knows more about gunplay mechanics than JE Sawyer, because he knows how to play Liberty Island in stealth after playing through DX ten times.

Think about how it feels for a first time player, FFS!

 

[RK47]

 

[Average Manatee]

ITT, a guy thinks he knows more about gunplay mechanics than JE Sawyer, because he knows how to play Liberty Island in stealth after playing through DX ten times.

Think about how it feels for a first time gamer, FFS!

If you want fisher price DX for a fisher price gamer, maybe they shouldn't be playing Realistic mode. Maybe they should be playing Easy. I think that's why they make easy difficulties.

BTW, isn't the problem with popamole that it makes games too easy? If you think DX is popamole you shouldn't be concerned about things being too easy, only things being too hard. Or is DX not popamole and you were shooting shit out of your mouth?

 

[Infinitron]

If you want fisher price DX for a fisher price gamer, maybe they shouldn't be playing Realistic mode. Maybe they should be playing Easy. I think that's why they make easy difficulties.

BTW, isn't the problem with popamole that it makes games too easy? If you think DX is popamole you shouldn't be concerned about things being too easy, only things being too hard. Or is DX not popamole and you were shooting shit out of your mouth?

Easy difficulty doesn't fix core gunplay mechanics.

Of course DX is not popamole, strictly speaking, but it does encourage disturbingly popamole-like behavior.

 

[Average Manatee]

Having cover that players need to use it not popamole. Popamole is when players have the ability to watch enemies without leaving cover (e.g. Third person camera), health regenerates, and enemies happily give you time to do as you please while they shoot at your cover because they are stupid. Arguably DX has the first two (augs can provide them at a cost), but the third is not present, enemies straight up charge you almost all the time.

Easy difficulty doesn't fix core gunplay mechanics.

You weren't complaining about core gunplay mechanics, you were complaining about the game being too hard for new players. By definition gunplay mechanics are universal between both good and bad players, so why bring bad players up as a topic of discussion in the first place? Are you going to stick to your argument or dance around like a baffoon speaking about irrelevant bullshit?

 

[DraQ]

ITT, a guy thinks he knows more about gunplay mechanics than JE Sawyer

How quaint, an argument from authority.

In an industry where people who actually did something right turn out to have only done it for completely wrong and misguided reasons all the time.

 

[Infinitron]

You weren't complaining about core gunplay mechanics, you were complaining about the game being too hard for new players. By definition gunplay mechanics are universal between both good and bad players, so why bring bad players up as a topic of discussion in the first place? Are you going to stick to your argument or dance around like a baffoon speaking about irrelevant bullshit?

No, I never said it was too hard. I said stealth gameplay was not really feasible for somebody who hasn't been through the game several times. For those people, this how the first hours of DX play like:

waiting...waiting....pew! OH FUCK OH FUCK OH FUCK THERE'S ANOTHER GUY DUCK BEHIND THIS CORNER... TRANQ EM pew! NOW RUNRUNRUNRUNRUNRUNRUNRUN ok phew I think I heard him fall down

They don't know what to expect. They stumble into all of the game's weaknesses.

 

[DraQ]

You weren't complaining about core gunplay mechanics, you were complaining about the game being too hard for new players. By definition gunplay mechanics are universal between both good and bad players, so why bring bad players up as a topic of discussion in the first place? Are you going to stick to your argument or dance around like a baffoon speaking about irrelevant bullshit?

No, I never said it was too hard. I said stealth gameplay was not really feasible for somebody who hasn't been through the game several times.

In other words "hard", at least without extensive meta-knowledge.

No, it isn't.

 

[Infinitron]

In other words "hard", at least without extensive meta-knowledge.

No, not hard. Un-fun. DX "stealth" is pretty easy, just tranq people with the crossbow and run like an idiot.

You people have a dogmatic opinion of how a game can be good, but you never stop to consider whether that is really the best way to do it.

 

[DraQ]

Really?

No, I never said it was too hard. I said stealth gameplay was not really feasible for somebody who hasn't been through the game several times.

Are you sure?

Because it sounds like you said "hard" to me.

Anyway, stealth is easy - just remember Anna's instructions during tutorial and baton the enemies in the kindneys. You don't even need to use tranqs or prod on LI, they are convenience/emergency weapons and tranqs are likely to cause an alarm if your target reaches the panel.

Stealthing LI the first time around is perfectly possible, encouraged by relative scarcity of ammo and actually feels better than on subsequent playthroughs, because you don't have an accurate mental model of AI's flaws and both carefully creeping without knowing if the enemy won't suddenly hear you before you tap them in the kidneys and running away while a tranqed NSFer tries to shoot you in the head make for some memorable moments.

On your subsequent playthroughs you will just be running through the shadows while skirting NFS view cones and hearing radii while chuckling at their monumental stupidity.

Also, sticking LAMs to alarm panels - never forget.

 

[Infinitron]

Really?

No, I never said it was too hard. I said stealth gameplay was not really feasible for somebody who hasn't been through the game several times.

Are you sure?

Because it sounds like you said "hard" to me.

By "not feasible", I meant that most first time players would give up on any semblance of a stealth run very quickly because, again, it's kind of derpy and not fun when you don't know what to expect. Tranqing and running, or batoning people in the ass and hoping they fall quickly, just so the enemy corpse is labelled "unconscious" instead of "dead"? Fuck it.

 

[Roguey]

Good golly, I come back and see the same three people filling up nearly three pages with this argument. I'm not reading any of it. I still have to deliver a parting shot of course.

RPG Codex: "Vocal" Players and Expectations over Experience. Fortunately I'm reasonably sure the shrinking reticule genre is dead forever considering the last one was forced on Obsidian against their wishes and the one before that was from eight years ago.

 

[DraQ]

Good golly, I come back and see the same three people filling up nearly three pages with this argument. I'm not reading any of it. I still have to deliver a parting shot of course.

RPG Codex: "Vocal" Players and Expectations over Experience.

Odd, I'd say that 99% of cRPG mechanical problems are caused by inability to take a break from established mechanics.

Fortunately I'm reasonably sure the shrinking reticule genre is dead forever considering the last one was forced on Obsidian against their wishes and the one before that was from eight years ago.

Yeah, it will likely be replaced by swaying weapon genre which is more or less the same albeit with better presentation.

 

[Jasede]

I played the game only once completely and that was on Realistic and killing 2 people directly.
I'd say tranq darts and the baton and, my favorite, the pepper spray are very viable and require no metagaming as I had none.

On my many subsequent play-throughs that I abandon at 80% through the game I learned that ghosting the game (stealth, no killing, no knocking out as much as possible, no getting spotted) is also mostly possible but quite difficult. That probably requires some meta-gaming.

There's no reason to ghost the game on your first time.