Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

[flabbyjack]

Even if you agree with some of the points of the review, it comes off as far too critical. There's this thing called constructive criticism.

Review troll is fail.

 

[Scruffy]

no, sorry, i wanted to enjoy PoE as much as the next guy, and I was prepared to cut it a LOT of slack if it was going to give me an enjoyable game experience and take me back to the IE times. This game does neither. It's a boring chore of a game, without inspiration, with awful combat and bland items and its only strength is its art direction/graphics. This review evidentiates the weak points, and those complaining about it need to explain to me what they found enjoyable in repeating the same fight a million times and finding the same items a million times and casting the same spells a million times.

 

[Declinator]

Even if you agree with some of the points of the review, it comes off as far too critical. There's this thing called constructive criticism.

The review points out a lot of negative points (i.e. points that can and should be improved) about the game, at times in minute detail. How is this not constructive criticism?

Just because it is negative does not mean it is not constructive. In fact positive feedback is usually far less constructive.

This forum is sooo retarded, omg. WHY i still return to this shitpile?!

Yes, it's hard to explain why people who claim to hate the Codex stick around anyway. Reasons seem to vary. Often, it's to complain about how Codexers keep posting about games they don't like instead of moving onto something more to their tastes.

The codex is like that relative or friend that tells it to you straight, without sugar-coating and doesn't care in the slightest if you'll be offended and/or scandalized. It's shocking at first but in time you know he's is right. However, you can't completely shake off that 'yeah, but he's still an asshole' feeling

When I first started visiting this site I was mystified by how...refreshing the site felt. In time I understood that it was because I had seen too much of people not saying what they actually thought because they were afraid of other people thinking differently/getting offended/hurt. It's a relief seeing other people be open about their opinions when elsewhere on the net and especially in real life it is so rare. Even if the opinions are mired in expletives and insults.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Fortunately, those who find the review too negative have quality alternatives which better reflect their feelings :

http://www.rpgwatch.com/articles/pillars-of-eternity--what-makes-this-a-genius-game-310.html

 

[flabbyjack]

How is this not constructive criticism?

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

 

[Lurker King]

Ok, faggots. Let us talk some sense here:

1)Most writers in the game industry are not that brilliant. When people complain about bad writing in games we have to consider which games represent the standards of good writing to make a proper comparison - Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky doesn’t count. I think we could all agree that the best writing can be found in games such as FO, FO2, F:NV, PST, MotB and maybe VMB and AP – AoD leave them in the dust, but is not released yet. In comparison to these classics, POE writing is on the same level concerning the characters and the lore, but is worse in the remaining aspects. This still puts POE on a league above every single other cRPG out there.

2)The game has many retarded mechanics, but we can’t hold Sawyer’s philosophy accountable for every single stupid thing. A lot of the bland talents, spells and stats results from creating things in a hurry. Stgy is working on Underrail for five years know – he made some changes in the psionic abilities in the last fucking month. VD is working in AoD for ten years and still making changes in the crafting system. Quality takes time. Since kickstarter most naive players have been bouncing around like childish little girls expecting that the studios will make the game of their dreams in less than three years. Wake the fuck up!

3)Even with all the trash mobs and retarded design decisions, the game provides an engrossing experience and is more than the sum of its parts. Players that say differently are idealists that see their opinions as a matter of principle and are just protesting against Sawyer retardness and its related waste of opportunities.

4)A lot of codexians have this massive delusion that Sawyer is a bully imposing his views on the rest of the developers at Obsidian and that Tim Cain or Chris Avellone will be the saviors of the grognard mentality. They aren’t. The team is conniving with Sawyer and will support him 100%. They are all ok with the causal mentality of making every build viable to players. I guess that as they got older, they got tired of cRPGs or simply burnout.

 

[Lurker King]

Finally, we have the cipher, and oh boy is that a good one. The cipher has access to some of the most broken abilities in the game, it is not limited by spell memorisation, and its spellcasting resource not only regenerates to half after each fight, but is easy to refresh in combat as well. For all the pre-release talks of system balance meant to equalise all classes in PoE, the cipher stands as a proud testament to the contrary. I can only wonder who it was that looked at the final result that was this class, compared it to everything else and thought ‘yup, this is a good idea!’.

Now Sawyer will make this class "proper balanced" in the expansion and will erase any trace of fun left. Good job bringing this up, asshole!

But by far the worst moments in this game happen when the writing tries to be political or philosophical. In terms of politics, the writers very often impose specific views upon your character, which is perhaps the most amateurish thing one can do. My favourite example of this is a quest where you have to find a nobleman’s daughter. Turns out she’s been kidnapped by evil cultists who tell you she’s actually his niece and that she’s pregnant with his child. My reaction to this was basically “shrug, typical inbred noblemen”. But then I saw my dialogue options and realised that all of them (a total of four, I believe) were expressing some sort of righteous indignation. The lead cultist then launches into a communist rant about all noblemen and rich people being rotten to the core, and your character is still not able to disagree with him in any way other than ‘yes, but there’s no need for violence!’, even if it comes from a noble background itself.

I think you have more options if you have a more cruel disposition, but I'm not sure.

 

[Scruffy]

Ok, faggots. Let us talk some sense here:

1)Most writers in the game industry are not that brilliant. When people complain about bad writing in games we have to consider which games represent the standards of good writing to make a proper comparison - Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky doesn’t count. I think we could all agree that the best writing can be found in games such as FO, FO2, F:NV, PST, MotB and maybe VMB and AP – AoD leave them in the dust, but is not released yet. In comparison to these classics, POE writing is on the same level concerning the characters and the lore, but is worse in the remaining aspects. This still puts POE on a league above every single other cRPG out there.

2)The game has many retarded mechanics, but we can’t hold Sawyer’s philosophy accountable for every single stupid thing. A lot of the bland talents, spells and stats results from creating things in a hurry. Stgy is working on Underrail for five years know – he made some changes in the psionic abilities in the last fucking month. VD is working in AoD for ten years and still making changes in the crafting system. Quality takes time. Since kickstarter most naive players have been bouncing around like childish little girls expecting that the studios will make the game of their dreams in less than three years. Wake the fuck up!

3)Even with all the trash mobs and retarded design decisions, the game provides an engrossing experience and is more than the sum of its parts. Players that say differently are idealists that see their opinions as a matter of principle and are just protesting against Sawyer retardness and its related waste of opportunities.

4)A lot of codexians have this massive delusion that Sawyer is a bully imposing his views on the rest of the developers at Obsidian and that Tim Cain or Chris Avellone will be the saviors of the grognard mentality. They aren’t. The team is conniving with Sawyer and will support him 100%. They are all ok with the causal mentality of making every build viable to players. I guess that as they got older, they got tired of cRPGs or simply burnout.

engrossing? what's engrossing about repeating the same actions a million times? It's not a matter of principle, i really want to know if you found the combat/itemization/spellcasting anything but boring.

 

[Wizfall]

PoE is way better than BG1 and it's not even close.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

I liked the game much more than the reviewer (in fact, I really like it a lot), but over all many of his points were fair (even if it read's like one of those reviews where he decided he wanted to hate it, so basically just found something bad to say about everything).

This is the only one I strongly disagree with:

The enemy AI is completely retarded and can’t deal with engagement at all. You will never see enemies do anything clever. You will never get outsmarted in any way. After you get the attention of a mob, it will just go forward and crash against your shield wall without any consideration, even if it means dropping 6 dudes against your tank instead of rushing for your backline.

I'm playing on POTD and enemies constantly disengage from my front line and go after my squishy characters in the back (which is really annoying as I'm doing the no knock out achievement too). Unless you funnel them through a choke point, they tend to target the weak ones in the back anyway, which can be fun to manage as there are a lot of spells and abilities to control this.

The REAL retardation in terms of AI is friendly AI. Your party will constantly get hung up on eachother for ABSOUTLY NO REASON. In a group fight in the middle of a giant room, rather than going around the other fighters to get to a character you target on the other side on the other side, they will just continually bash into the crowd, like a fly running into a screen door, until you select them and lead them around in a circle. It's straight silly.

I'd also say that the priest is less shit than you make them out to be. I rarely use his buffs, but his knock down and healing spells are indispensable and very necessary early game (becoming less so, once the Wizard gets AOE knock down). Plus, they are really durable if you put armor on them and do a good deal of damage with a staff.

I agree WIzards are more or less shit, although I always have Aloth in my party just because his fire spells are super overpowered (provided you can position him correctly so that he doesn't immediately get ganked). Honestly, though, like you say, I only use 3 or 4 spells total of his (fire and fireballs, his storm knock down spell, the level 2 stun spell).....every level up I just pick something that seems the least shitty, use it once, then never touch it again.

I personally appreciate the game's extreme balance, though, and it's probably one of my favorite RTWP games in recent memeory (I liked the Drakensangs better in terms of RTWP, but I prefer POE to the Dragon Ages). I think it's much, much, more fun on POTD, though, as I've had a ton of fights that have made me evolve my tactics and try new things over the course of the game.

 

[Irenaeus]

My favourite example of this is a quest where you have to find a nobleman’s daughter. Turns out she’s been kidnapped by evil cultists who tell you she’s actually his niece and that she’s pregnant with his child. My reaction to this was basically “shrug, typical inbred noblemen”.

That says a lot about your plebeian shit tastes. Just reading this retarded part on someone's quote makes me glad I didn't read your clownish "review".

 

[Declinator]

How is this not constructive criticism?

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

Right, Wikipedia is the definitive dictionary.

How about some Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/constructive):
- promoting improvement or development <constructive criticism>

Or Oxford Dictionary (http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/39904?redirectedFrom=constructive):
-Having the quality of constructing; given to construction. Also spec. of immaterial objects, ideas, etc.: having the quality of contributing helpfully (esp. opp. destructive).
(and under this definition one of the examples: 1965 New Statesman 19 Mar. 425/2 The New Statesman..has a duty to subject the government to a continuous process of constructive criticism.)

Or even this random site (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/constructive+criticism):
-criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions

Wikipedia or its writers may care about the manner in which the criticism is delivered but that does not mean it is actually a part of the definition.

 

[Hatred]

Also positive points were made in the review. flabbyjack has reading comprehension problems. That or he didn't even read it.

 

[Irenaeus]

How is this not constructive criticism?

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

Right, Wikipedia is the definitive dictionary.

How about some Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/constructive):
- promoting improvement or development <constructive criticism>

Or Oxford Dictionary (http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/39904?redirectedFrom=constructive):
-Having the quality of constructing; given to construction. Also spec. of immaterial objects, ideas, etc.: having the quality of contributing helpfully (esp. opp. destructive).
(and under this definition one of the examples: 1965 New Statesman 19 Mar. 425/2 The New Statesman..has a duty to subject the government to a continuous process of constructive criticism.)

Or even this random site (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/constructive+criticism):
-criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions

Wikipedia or its writers may care about the manner in which the criticism is delivered but that does not mean it is actually a part of the definition.

Your definition is shit and you should kill yourself (Example of constructive criticism)

 

[Darth Roxor]

1)Most writers in the game industry are not that brilliant. When people complain about bad writing in games we have to consider which games represent the standards of good writing to make a proper comparison - Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky doesn’t count. I think we could all agree that the best writing can be found in games such as FO, FO2, F:NV, PST, MotB and maybe VMB and AP – AoD leave them in the dust, but is not released yet. In comparison to these classics, POE writing is on the same level concerning the characters and the lore, but is worse in the remaining aspects. This still puts POE on a league above every single other cRPG out there.

I obviously agree that comparing video games to Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky doesn't count, but you practically give me the answer to this yourself.

Obs and its devs have previously given us many games with good writing quality. Across various companies they boarded, they gave us Fallouts, PS:T, MotB, AP, and then some more. Now PoE comes out and its writing is terrible, and it's bad quality only stands out precisely because you've expected more from the studio that gave you all those gems before. It's all about relative values and expectations (

) in this case - if PoE was a Bethesda game, I probably wouldn't have gone so deeply into criticising its writing, because bad writing in modern Beth is a given.

2)The game has many retarded mechanics, but we can’t hold Sawyer’s philosophy accountable for every single stupid thing.

And here I agree with you completely, which may surprise some people out there. It is precisely why I was trying to avoid pointing fingers and leave out the names from the review for the most part.

 

[Irenaeus]

Now PoE comes out and its writing is terrible.

Wrong, the writing is great. Refer to the "PoE writing is average" thread in PoE subforum to inform yourself. I recommend reading all my posts.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Now PoE comes out and its writing is terrible.

Wrong, the writing is great. Refer to the "PoE writing is average" thread in PoE subforum to inform yourself. I recommend reading all my posts.

i shall do so with haste

 

[Stompa]

best writing can be found in games such as FO, FO2, F:NV, PST, MotB and maybe VMB and AP – AoD

FO2

Oh no you didn't.

In comparison to these classics, POE writing is on the same level concerning the characters and the lore, but is worse in the remaining aspects.

What characters? Only characters that PoE does well are companions and even there are stinkers like Pallegina. Quest givers, secondary NPC, antagonists, fuck, even the main villain - all are completely forgettable and even downright retarded in some cases. And while lore is indeed good, it comes off as too safe, too rooted in generic fantasy and the "souls as the answer to everything" thing doesn't help. The few genuinely interesting bits are not seen in the game at all, only told by companions. Oh, and of course, language shit is too silly to take it seriously.

 

[markec]

Ok, faggots. Let us talk some sense here:

1)Most writers in the game industry are not that brilliant. When people complain about bad writing in games we have to consider which games represent the standards of good writing to make a proper comparison - Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky doesn’t count. I think we could all agree that the best writing can be found in games such as FO, FO2, F:NV, PST, MotB and maybe VMB and AP – AoD leave them in the dust, but is not released yet. In comparison to these classics, POE writing is on the same level concerning the characters and the lore, but is worse in the remaining aspects. This still puts POE on a league above every single other cRPG out there.

First no we cant agree AoD leaves them in the dust, yes in amount of c&c but overall quality of writing no. Second, PoE writing in any aspect is not in a same level as those games, if I would compare its writing it would be with game like Gothic, its passable but nothing impressive, unless you consider quantity = quality.

2)The game has many retarded mechanics, but we can’t hold Sawyer’s philosophy accountable for every single stupid thing. A lot of the bland talents, spells and stats results from creating things in a hurry. Stgy is working on Underrail for five years know – he made some changes in the psionic abilities in the last fucking month. VD is working in AoD for ten years and still making changes in the crafting system. Quality takes time. Since kickstarter most naive players have been bouncing around like childish little girls expecting that the studios will make the game of their dreams in less than three years. Wake the fuck up!

You cant blame Sawyer alone, but you wonder seeing this company having so much experience with DnD why did they reinvent the wheel by turning it into a cube.

3)Even with all the trash mobs and retarded design decisions, the game provides an engrossing experience and is more than the sum of its parts. Players that say differently are idealists that see their opinions as a matter of principle and are just protesting against Sawyer retardness and its related waste of opportunities.

I would say that people who find the game engrossing are the one who are still under release adrenaline rush and see it as best thing ever but when they calm down they will see all the game faults.

4)A lot of codexians have this massive delusion that Sawyer is a bully imposing his views on the rest of the developers at Obsidian and that Tim Cain or Chris Avellone will be the saviors of the grognard mentality. They aren’t. The team is conniving with Sawyer and will support him 100%. They are all ok with the causal mentality of making every build viable to players. I guess that as they got older, they got tired of cRPGs or simply burnout.

Pretty much agree with you here.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I'm playing on POTD and enemies constantly disengage from my front line and go after my squishy characters in the back (which is really annoying as I'm doing the no knock out achievement too). Unless you funnel them through a choke point, they tend to target the weak ones in the back anyway, which can be fun to manage as there are a lot of spells and abilities to control this.

There are lot of spells, sure, but none of them can compare to Hold Person. Once HP hit someone, it would pretty much knock him out of the fight for good.

Now, not saying that that's the be-all-end-all of spell design, but there are a few problems about POE's crowd control spells that, in my view, make them iffy.

For starters, one has to take into account the vastly different health values between the IE games and POE. POE characters have vastly more 'hit points', while the damage done is usually not scaled up in the same way. This, by itself, makes most fights take longer than in the IE games, that's one thing.

The second is that while Hold Person would either work and stop the dude for what seems like forever (unless dispelt), most of the durations of CC spells in POE are laughably short, particularly the early ones (up to, say, magic level 3, including lvl 3). And even worse, they have a high chance of getting their duration cut even further, by half.

Combine both, and you get fights that last longer (beefier enemies with higher hit points), but which also have lower CC durations (some of them significantly). That alone makes POE's CC spells inherently less effective (and [A]wesome, obviously) than a spell like hold person.

 

[Ulrox]

Wrong, the writing is great. Refer to the "PoE writing is average" thread in PoE subforum to inform yourself. I recommend reading all my posts.

In fact, you should follow Irenaeus around everywhere and read all his posts to become a better person. Irenaeus is key to deep wisdom.

 

[hiver]

My favourite example of this is a quest where you have to find a nobleman’s daughter. Turns out she’s been kidnapped by evil cultists who tell you she’s actually his niece and that she’s pregnant with his child. My reaction to this was basically “shrug, typical inbred noblemen”.

That says a lot about your plebeian shit tastes. Just reading this retarded part on someone's quote makes me glad I didn't read your clownish "review".

This is true. Despite Skean temple being full of trash mobs it was one of the better parts of the game.

You had several different ways to discover the cult, and you had several options on how to approach and solve the quest, depending on your reputation and dialogue options based on your stats.

With further options on how to deal with its aftermath.

 

[Darth Roxor]

The way you could access the temple through various means was great, yes, especially considering how one of them let you completely ignore all the trashmobs inside, and which wasn't even that 'obvious', per se.

Like I noted in the revioo, Dyrford was generally of a much higher quality than most things in the game. Just a shame that it was so short (four quests at best?)

 

[Irenaeus]

Like Roxor, I was also disappointed with the ending dialogue with the noble girl, but for completely different reasons. I wanted her to go back to her uncle and go along with his plan of finding her a suitor. Didn't have that option, so I just sent her to the nearby temple

 

[Prime Junta]

POE characters have vastly more 'hit points', while the damage done is usually not scaled up in the same way. This, by itself, makes most fights take longer than in the IE games, that's one thing.

You suck at this game.