Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

[RK47]

77,000 disappointed Baldur's Gate fans made this game possible.

 

[commie]

Let's be honest here: had this game been so flawless and good as some people claim Darth Roxor's arguments would fall on their own. The fact is however they are spot on and the only thing PoE fanboys are doing right now is either calling DR an idiot or saying that the flaws are minor. The thing is, even when you assume that the things DR mentioned are minor, they do stack up and that says something. Sure you can ignore it all but for many people these things ruin the gaming experience.

Another interesting thing: the fact alone that this game brings such controversy shows that Obsidian did something wrong and DR did something right. This game will probably be even more controversial than Wasteland 2 (judging by number of replies in this thread). I'm in the pro-Wasteland camp but I can understand the hate for W2. On the other hand I don't even care about PoE but with the amount of butthurt I'm reading I'll definitely check it out once it's on sale. So again, DR has done something right by advertising this game (I would argue that this kind of review is the best advertisement on the Codex, better than 10/10 review).

And why is it so strange that someone would consider this the worst Obsidian game? If you have the least amount of fun when playing it then it is the worst. Just like someone might ignore Fallout flaws and call it the best cRPG ever, one can dismiss PoE's merits when compared to flaws because they ruin the fun. I think some people have problems with reading with comprehension - DR wrote "worst Obsidian game" and "mediocre/underwhelming game" not "shitty game".

Hmm....so if you like a game despite what one reviewer out of a hundred says about it then you're a 'fanboy'....interesting. Tell me more.

 

[Lady_Error]

Be a true successor to Baldur's Gate 2.

In what fantasy world did anyone ever expect THAT to happen?

Probably all these retards who gave $1000 to have themselves included in the game, and all these people who paid ever more to be made into portrait. I wouldn't pay $50 to be put in the PoE, yet I'd surely pay that 1k to be put into BG2.

I think Jaesun didn't pay that much to be included.

If you compare it to only 2 games from 15 years ago then it's obvious that it will bring some innovations. You could have also said that it's innovative because it introduced resolutions over 1024x768, 3D models rendered in real time, developer commentary, viseable cloaks (!!!), elemental races and Steam release on premiere.

It doesn't make sense to compare a 2D isometric game with an MMO like WoW.

Everyone expected POE to be a sort of revival of the IE games, so it makes sense to compare it to those.

 

[Grunker]

Guys, just because I'm kinda curious myself.

Please give me some examples of edginess from the review.

what they gave us instead was the story of BG, the combat of PS:T

 

[Volrath]

Very good read, fair review for a game that utterly failed at everything it set out to do.

Which is what exactly? Everybody keeps regurgitating this same fucking point over and over again, but nobody seems to explain what they mean by it.

Well, unless you think poe was about nice graphics, decent music and Na´Vi rejects im guessing.... everything? from balance, to reactivity, to writing and fun gameplay, it simply isnt very good.
I still think it isnt a bad game, some details ive found in the game design tell me someone at some point cared, and that makes it even more of a disappointment.

They set out to make a RTWP party based CRPG in the vein of the IE games and that's what they did.

It doesn't matter if it's shit or not when they delivered on their premise.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Lhynn
Some gaming experience won't magically make you able to beat Dungeons and Dragons where it is best. Bioware could just port creatures and mechanics from Dungeons and Dragons, not to mention take models from both BG 1 and IWD, which allowed Bioware to make it such a diverse experience. Bioware's efforts at making their own mechanics and creatures ended-up even worse than PoE. I'd wait for PoE 2 to fully judge Obsidian, but considering the fact that Sawyer's idea of making a good creature is to steal a monster from DnD and then either remove (Trolls) or nerf (Ilithinds, Spiders) its most recognizable ability I don't have high hopes.

 

[shadow9d9]

Yet another 'edgy' review to stick a spoke in the eye of most every other review of PoE. Codex stays true to its roots as the place to go to for diametrically opposed views on everything.
I wonder had Angry Joe despised PoE we'd have gotten something else entirely?

I'll pull up a chair though to see if Twitcher 3 wins 2 or 3 Codex GOTY awards instead....

This fallacy seems to always get pushed. The review here was detailed and described everything he criticized in the game. Being critical and not being a bootlicker does NOT make someone edgy. Being a bootlicker or copying what everyone else thinks doesn't make your opinion correct either. Either his arguments are sound or they aren't. Address them or shut it. This is a poor attempt again to dismiss a review that doesn't jump on the bootlicker bandwagon without having to address a single argument.

Obsidian has always been a company that sounded great on paper and in their marketing, but never truly excel in their games. Their games have mostly been jumping on the backs of others, such as with KOTOR or NWN or FNV. They are utterly afraid of doing anything new, so they play it safe, and it always shows in their results. This was their chance to do it their own way and they played it generic and safe instead. This is an age where first person shooters are considered the mainstream rpg standard and people are desperate to fall in love with something, so here we are.

From skimming the review and not having played the game, the most criticial flaws in this game that stuck out to me were:

-Enemy AI that bumrush the first person in sight.
-Skills/perks that are not unique and add little of value
-copy and pasted groups of the same monster with no xp rewards
-Little incentive to explore with no xp and not much in the way of anything worthwhile in even 'secret' chests
-In the big city, mostly fedex quests with continuity problems in the text
-Token kickstarter based fulfillments such as the home base
-Nothing innovative or unique in any way.. a very much play it safe and push out something derivitive approach

This was from a brief skim that I had hours ago. Any actual rebuttals?

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Very good read, fair review for a game that utterly failed at everything it set out to do.

Which is what exactly? Everybody keeps regurgitating this same fucking point over and over again, but nobody seems to explain what they mean by it.

Well, unless you think poe was about nice graphics, decent music and Na´Vi rejects im guessing.... everything? from balance, to reactivity, to writing and fun gameplay, it simply isnt very good.
I still think it isnt a bad game, some details ive found in the game design tell me someone at some point cared, and that makes it even more of a disappointment.

They set out to make a RTWP party based CRPG in the vein of the IE games and that's what they did.

It doesn't matter if it's shit or not when they delivered on their premise.

This is what they've promised:

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration ofBaldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

It doesn't make sense to compare a 2D isometric game with an MMO like WoW.

Everyone expected POE to be a sort of revival of the IE games, so it makes sense to compare it to those.

And adding guns to a fantasy MMO is different how from adding guns to a 2D fantasy RPG? PoE is party based RPG, when talking about innovations it only makes sense to compare it to other representatives of a genre. How can you say that PoE innovated things by adding an anima companion if the first spiritual sequel to BG, NVN already did that? In fact NVN was much more innovative than PoE despite being made over a decade earlier.

 

[Bubbles]

viseable cloaks (!!!)

Not on Mac and Linux:

Our middleware solution for capes suddenly stopped working on more recent versions of Unity on the Mac build. We are investigating it, but I don't have a good answer for you right now. Unfortunately, we do not have source code, so our hands are a bit tied in this situation. I would like to have capes work and look the same on all three platforms asap.

 

[Volrath]

This is what they've promised:

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration ofBaldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

Hmmm. Baldur's Gate (1-2) had mostly shit and forgettable companions, PoE is even an upgrade in this regard. All IE engine games had horrible, horrible combat so I'd put PoE at least on par with them (notice how they don't mention encounter design).

You've got me on the mature and thematic exploration though, that falls incredibly short.

Still 2/3. Not bad.

 

[Lady_Error]

Please give me some examples of edginess from the review.

"This is literally the worst Obsidian game I’ve played to date. That’s right, I even had more fun with Dungeon Siege 3 - at least it was a fun beat ‘em up, as opposed to this lifeless, uninspired husk. Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity."

Enough?

 

[MRY]

All that shit means nothing if the execution fails. And the execution fails.

Well, I haven't played enough of the game to meaningfully debate you about whether the execution fails or not; for all I know, I'd agree. But I disagree that it means "nothing"; NWN2 OC is a quite bad, I think, but MOTB is magnificent. MOTB would not exist without NWN2 OC. I'm not a particular fan of BG or even BG2 (I only really dabbled in the former), but without BG, there would be no PS:T, which I love above most other games. So if nothing else, the assembling of functional parts matters because it allows later refinements and transformations. POE is a framework on which future games can be built; if the frame is solid enough (and I think it is), then the building of the frame means quite a bit.

Moreover, while you guys will know better than I do, I don't think there really has been any game even attempting something like the IE games in a long time. DA:O is probably the closest, but it was heavily reliant on various high-budget cinematic tropes that all but guaranteed that sequels would move in the wrong direction. Even if PoE disappoints you -- and clearly it has, and no one can dispute that it has failed at its goal of pleasing the most well-versed of audiences -- it has drawn tens of thousands of players back toward a set of of gameplay elements that have been lacking for a long time. Future games will benefit from PoE's "education" of gamers.

None of this is a response to whether or not the game fails in its execution. Objectively, it has failed with respect to many people whose opinion I respect; objectively, it has succeeded with respect to many more people. I think it is weird to call the game a failure when it is already beloved by players and critics, or to say that it has accomplished nothing when it has already provided a framework for at least one other eagerly anticipated RPG (TTON). But it is entirely reasonable to say it has the following thousand flaws and is unappealing to serious RPGers as a consequence.

Volrath: Something seems to have broken in your quote chain.

 

[commie]

Please give me some examples of edginess from the review.

"This is literally the worst Obsidian game I’ve played to date. That’s right, I even had more fun with Dungeon Siege 3 - at least it was a fun beat ‘em up, as opposed to this lifeless, uninspired husk. Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity."

Enough?

Exactly. No one that would be making a 'serious' and 'objective' review could ever claim that DS3 was 'fun' or a 'beat 'em up'.

 

[Mycroft]

What made Baldur memorable, for me at least, were the mage fights. Oh and it was pretty.

Seeing as POE didn't have anything of that magnitude and story and characters are highly subjective, they should have had something to fall back on. Combat, stronghold, trial were not it. It was pretty, though, in ways that stirred nostalgia and atmospheric but that only lasts for so long. I found the first village to be interesting. And was it just me or did it seem as though the world was unlived in, except for the backer NPCs? (which I killed).

Ultimately, we'll see if they improve on it. Or maybe just Obsi works better under publisher whips.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

I want to give Darth Roxor a handjob. Well said.

And the Obshitian cock-gobblers are going to hang you for it.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Great read, the only thing missing, is you should've made a vlog where you set PoE's physical box on fire.

Every crusade needs to end with fire.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'll remind everybody that the reason why Obsidian did this kick-stater in the first place. It's because they couldn't find a publisher that wanted to back a Baldur's gate, infinity engine inspired game. If you backed it expecting Dinosaurs in space with a cyberpunk futuristic setting (innoovvvvaaattttiiiiooonn), you're an idiot.

 

[Bubbles]

Exactly. No one that would be making a 'serious' and 'objective' review could ever claim that DS3 was 'fun' or a 'beat 'em up'.

DS3 was good enough for me to finish it, which makes it better than WL2. It was reasonably fun.

 

[Athelas]

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions (...) of Baldur’s Gate

In hindsight, this should have been a giant red flag.

 

[Lhynn]

All that shit means nothing if the execution fails. And the execution fails.

Well, I haven't played enough of the game to meaningfully debate you about whether the execution fails or not; for all I know, I'd agree. But I disagree that it means "nothing"; NWN2 OC is a quite bad, I think, but MOTB is magnificent. MOTB would not exist without NWN2 OC. I'm not a particular fan of BG or even BG2 (I only really dabbled in the former), but without BG, there would be no PS:T, which I love above most other games. So if nothing else, the assembling of functional parts matters because it allows later refinements and transformations. POE is a framework on which future games can be built; if the frame is solid enough (and I think it is), then the building of the frame means quite a bit.

Sure, but Roxor is not reviewing PoE: horse armor dlc or PoE 2, hes reviewing PoE.

Moreover, while you guys will know better than I do, I don't think there really has been any game even attempting something like the IE games in a long time. DA:O is probably the closest, but it was heavily reliant on various high-budget cinematic tropes that all but guaranteed that sequels would move in the wrong direction. Even if PoE disappoints you -- and clearly it has, and no one can dispute that it has failed at its goal of pleasing the most well-versed of audiences -- it has drawn tens of thousands of players back toward a set of of gameplay elements that have been lacking for a long time. Future games will benefit from PoE's "education" of gamers.

This is true and i can only hope it happens, i believe this game doing good is a good thing, and im happy for the guys at obsidian for the success.

None of this is a response to whether or not the game fails in its execution. Objectively, it has failed with respect to many people whose opinion I respect; objectively, it has succeeded with respect to many more people. I think it is weird to call the game a failure when it is already beloved by players and critics, or to say that it has accomplished nothing when it has already provided a framework for at least one other eagerly anticipated RPG (TTON). But it is entirely reasonable to say it has the following thousand flaws and is unappealing to serious RPGers as a consequence.

It failed at delivering what it promised, but people didnt care, The success of PoE is more about Obsidian and "isometric" and "old school" RTwP than it is about the game itself, and im ok with that, just not ok with that kind of mentality in thi siet, so many shit games get praised outside of this place than PoE getting 10s everywhere doesnt bother me one bit, fact im going to clap, clap hard at obsidians success, because hopefully it will bring good things, even if not from them, from others imitating them.

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions (...) of Baldur’s Gate

In hindsight, this should have been a giant red flag.

Kagain is a better character than you.

 

[karnak]

One thing is certain.
There are very few things as good as a Codex RPG brawl.

 

[tuluse]

I would LOVE to see the codex how they would rate games like

Probably something like this:

Fallout

Wow this is a really cool setting and there are so many ways to finish quests, plus some c&c. Shame about the combat and the writing was pretty uneven though.

Baldurs Gate

It's pretty and there's a lot of stuff to do. Nice to see a real d&d cRPG after so long.

Plancescape

Great art, atmosphere, and writing. Some cool mechanics with factions and companions. Some minor c&c, but nothing really earth shattering. Cool you could sell a companion into slavery. Also, the combat feels a lot worse than BG, but I'm not sure exactly why.

I'd guess something like that.

 

[Haba]

I'll remind everybody that the reason why Obsidian did this kick-stater in the first place. It's because they couldn't find a publisher that wanted to back a Baldur's gate, infinity engine inspired game. If you backed it expecting Dinosaurs in space with a cyberpunk futuristic setting (innoovvvvaaattttiiiiooonn), you're an idiot.

I backed it expecting a fun game. Obsidian didn't deliver.

 

[Blaine]

I've been saying for three years that no combat XP in a game where you spend 3/4 of your time fighting was a bad idea, and it actually turned out worse than I expected because:

1. there are far more trash mobs than I thought there would be (you'll be fighting shades, phantoms, etc. the entire game, by the way)
2. most of the quests are p. FedEx

Spot-on review from Darth Roxor, yet somehow, despite nearly every aspect of it being flawed, PoE was still quite fun and did remind me of the old IE games while I was playing.

 

[Irenaeus]

Let's be honest here: had this game been so flawless and good as some people claim Darth Roxor's arguments would fall on their own.

They fall on their own. Roxor is an imbelice.